German kill counts?

[Nick]

I've noticed in a lot of the histories I've been reading about WW2 aerial battles etc that the German kill counts are much much higher than Allied scores.

Its obvious from reading pilots accounts that the RAF at least were pretty stringent in awarding a confirmed kill, you basically HAD to see the plane crash and preferably have a witness too. Even if the plane is on fire and you see the pilot jettison his canopy, if you didn't see it crash or the pilot actually bail then you could only claim a probable.

Most of the Allied 'top' aces only had scores around the 20's or so (with some exceptions of course) but the Germans seem to consistently have MASSIVE scores...

We're talkingscores up in the 60's, 70's, 80's and even 90's! How come? Surely the Spanish Civil War can't have given them THAT much of lead in df skills? I know that they had superior aircraft and tactics in the early stages of the war and were basically dominant in the skies, but after '41 it appears to be a much more even playing field, so what gives?

Was the German scoring more relaxed in its awards of a kill? Did they not bother with 'probables' and just awarded a kills or nothing? Or maybe a shared kill counted as a whole kill no matter how many planes were involved in downing the same aircraft..

Anyone know, cos I find it hard to believe, expecially given that on some days during BoB, the Germans claimed more RAF planes shot down than were actually in the air!

[Skii]

Actually Deck m8 the Germans used the most stringent system of all, they didn't tend to count probables, only certains. It is reckoned for example that Adolf Galland actually shot down considerably more aircraft than the 100 or so he was given credit for.

Superior tactics was the primary reason for initial high kill numbers, but the playing field became more 'level' for the simple reason that Allied pilots would do a tour of duty, and after a finite number of missions they would be retired - whereas German pilots were rotated from unit to unit literally fighting until either they were killed or incapacitated.

[Zak33]

The pictures that Deck and I saw (on a DVD I have) of the same pilot after 9 months of flying in WWII showed a HUGE WEIGHT LOSS, mammoth stress and fatigue lines on his face, and frankly he'd aged 20 years in 9 months.....

so how on earth the German pilots managed to keep rotating bemuses me.....the unbelievable stress must eventually lead to a level of certainty that you are gonna die, so you might as well go up again and again, and keep trying more and more heroic things.

Gotta say tho....imagine the nervous breakdowns and the mental torment I can olny picture the sheer terror.......and IL2 has made me MORE scared, not less.......cos everyone ALWAYS imagines they might just be really good at something they always WANTED to be good at......and then reality strike in the form of dying

[nichomach]

Deck, also bear in mind that kills were easier to come by on, say, the Eastern Front - which is why you needed about 3 times the number of kills on the Eastern Front to get a Ritterkreuz than on the Western Front - stick some poor sod with a few training hops up in an i-16 and take bets on how long he lasts (in milliseconds...). Adolf Galland (so far as I recall) actually stopped counting his kills because he knew that once he got over 100, he'd be grounded as being too valuable to lose propaganda-wise. As far as the BoB totals, RAF claims were also exaggerated; neither side did this delibarately, but there were occasions where, for instance, more than one pilot claimed and had confirmed the same kill (unknowingly), or where in the confusion of battle everyone thought a plane had gone down when it hadn't. These things just happen.

[Zak33]

"these things just happen" is just so right

They do....they really do.....how the HELL do you confirm someone elses kill, when you are trying not to die yourself?

[Hat]

HORRIDO!

Didn't the german kills have to be verified in the air aswell by another pilot? I think I read in Gallands book that they had to shout "Horrido!" once they had got a kill and the other pilots had to look to verify

[Dakaras]

Ok im gonna cause a rumpas here just as soon as I find Galland Auto biography, Lufftewaffe over claim = Fact! In a lot of cases.
In Gallands case he claimed right upto 100 and beyond, he stopped claiming when he was inspector of fighters and wasnt surposed to be flying. During that time he knocked down several B17s in FW190s, naerly getting shot down himself by a P51 flown by James Goodson

But as stated earlier in the thread it wasnt intentional in 99% of cases. And the big scorers were on the eastern front. Galland was one of the few who did only count 100% confirmed kills, his record scored on the western front is imo one of the best combat records in histroy.

Give you more facts from the man himself when I nab the book back Saturday

[Sailor]

to be fair i reckon that 100 or more planes is a bit extreme even for an ace pilot. I mean seriously that's a lot, and even if he did do a lot of fighting on the eastern front I still think that it must be exaggerated. Haven't got any fact, but hey.
Anyone know what happened to him in the end?
Nick

[Dakaras]

Originally Posted by Sailor

to be fair i reckon that 100 or more planes is a bit extreme even for an ace pilot. I mean seriously that's a lot, and even if he did do a lot of fighting on the eastern front I still think that it must be exaggerated. Haven't got any fact, but hey.
Anyone know what happened to him in the end?
Nick

Galland lived a long and happy life after the war and was known to meet up with and get p1ssed with Bader, Lucas, Johnson etc

I know what you mean re 100 planes but think on this these guys were THE CREAM tactics were practised in Spain and gave them the edge big time. And early war they had the numbers. Take Pat Pattles 50+ they were scored over a 12 month period!!!! Its all IFs but If he had served all the war, If he had lived that is flying combat then he would have been 100+ im sure.

More examples

Stanford Tuck shot down in 42
Bader shot down
Goodson Shot Down
Malan had to fly desk for some of war
Johnson same

The list of decent allied pilots is long. But they never put in the hours so to speak

[Zak33]

Originally Posted by [MA]Dak[GSV]

I know what you mean re 100 planes but think on this these guys were THE CREAM

also dont forget that the top 10% were SO much better than the bottom 50% that some of the youngsters being thrown at the Aces were truly green.

Also the top lads/lasses (oh yes....female VVS defending Russia ) were often teamed up with lots of kids who were clueless, and who inevitably ended up as literal canon fodder.

The bombers some of the German hunter fighters took down were tracked using special radar to pin point them, even in dark crappy weather, so some of the "aces" were being led by the hand to their target.

However I'm not knocking their skills. Just putting into context the amount of young kids who got killed on their first trip out. The best just got better, because the worst were getting worse

and nice to see this thread back after 18 months Did you find it on Google?

[Clingy]

Also you should take into account that with the LW, it was only the squad leader that would expected/allowed to get kills.

In all I have read and seen it was widely excepted that both sides wildy exaggerated kills. Figures I have seen go as far as to say RAF were twice actual and LW as much as 3 times! Afterall in the BoB, LW believed they had destroyed all RAF fighter aircraft.

[Dakaras]

Ive aways thought (my opionion only) that the nightfigther kills were more accurate, flames are a big give away to confirming a kill

[jeNK^]

That shows great admiration and true.. sportsmanship and professionalism I suppose that they went and got boozed up together.. not long after they were after each others blood.

But my god.. Stalin and his iron fist - the rookies either got killed by the experienced and well equipped opposition, or they were killed by their commanders when they retreat.

The VVS were only capable of pushing back the LW by using insane numbers of aircraft afaik.

[yamangman]

Arn't Spanish Civil War kills included in their total's? That would add a fair amount to the enormous totals.

[Dakaras]

Originally Posted by yamangman

Arn't Spanish Civil War kills included in their total's? That would add a fair amount to the enormous totals.

With some of them for example Molders, however Galland was ground attack during SCW and also on the attack on Poland

[yamangman]

That's true, but Molder's kill count is a country mile and a halfs bigger than Gallands.