Vodafone made changes to my contract...

[noTHINGface]

Today I received a text from Vodafone kindly letting me know that they will now be charging me 20p/min for 0800 (a 100% increase) and a similar increase for 0845 numbers. A synopsis of the recorded message I listened to is below;

1st Sept 2008 changes to price plan non standard calls.
0500, 0800 0808 0845 20p/min
0871 0844 35p min
min call charge 15p

I'm far from happy about these changes - particularly the 0800 number increase as my work teleconference line is an 0800 and when working remotely I have to pay for the call.

I understand that they can make alterations to the price plan but I am also pretty sure that I can reject the changes they made to the contract and cancel the agreement, leave and not pay any early termination fee. Vodafone did not accept my argument even though I am now disadvantaged by the changes they made to the contract.

Anyone have experience or know what my options are here? Any help appreciated

[rastamanblues]

Originally Posted by noTHINGface

Today I received a text from Vodafone kindly letting me know that they will now be charging me 20p/min for 0800 (a 100% increase) and a similar increase for 0845 numbers. A synopsis of the recorded message I listened to is below;

1st Sept 2008 changes to price plan non standard calls.
0500, 0800 0808 0845 20p/min
0871 0844 35p min
min call charge 15p

I'm far from happy about these changes - particularly the 0800 number increase as my work teleconference line is an 0800 and when working remotely I have to pay for the call.

I understand that they can make alterations to the price plan but I am also pretty sure that I can reject the changes they made to the contract and cancel the agreement, leave and not pay any early termination fee. Vodafone did not accept my argument even though I am now disadvantaged by the changes they made to the contract.

Anyone have experience or know what my options are here? Any help appreciated

hmm I havent got any texts as of yet, but if I do, I really wont be happy!

[Saracen]

Obvious caveat - I'm not a lawyer.

Check your T&Cs relating to your contract. They DO have the right to increase charges. Clearly, it'd be unreasonable if they couldn't. But there ARE limits on how much by. According to the contract I have here, if they increase charges in a way that increases your costs by more than 10% or the increase in the RPI, then you can cancel your contract within the minimum term.

• during the Term

i) we increase in the United Kingdom and under clause 7a, call or other usage charges which have the effect of increasing your call or other usage charges by more than 10% or the increase in RPI calculated as in 8a above (which ever is the greater) based upon your previous call or usage pattern;

ii) you write to us before the increase takes effect.

It seems to me you have to read that a bit carefully. As I read it, they are NOT saying that if they increase their rates by more than 10% or RPI, but rather, going by your usage pattern, if that increase in rates would increase your costs by that amount.

So, clearly, if it were based on rates, that 100% increase would be way over the limit. But, if you pay £30 a month in charges and that only added £1 a month to the cost because you don't make many affected calls, then you couldn't use it as a way to cancel.

So, I'd say that if you go over a previous bill, calculate what the calls on that bill would have cost under the new price scheme and compare it to what you actually paid, you'll see if you have grounds to cancel. And if you're using that 0800 a lot and that's where a large proportion of your costs are coming from, it may be that you do.

And, realistically, that approach is reasonable. It isn't whether the rate itself has doubled or not that means that the change has an impact. After all, if I don't use my mobile for 0800 or 0845 calls, those rte changes may make no difference at all to what I actually pay. It's the impact on YOUR costs that matters, so I'd say that while that clause might give you an escape route, you'll be the only one that can tell for sure.

[noTHINGface]

Thanks for that. I've been going through the T&Cs of my contract and arrived pretty much at the same conclusion. I can extrapolate from my bills, and this rise will make a difference. I can claim back from my place of work for the TC line but I never bother since its not really worth my time filling out the reimbursement form for a couple of quid.

I will write expressing my concerns and see what happens. Cheers!


T&Cs here for anyone interested, paragraphs 7 and 8 http://online.vodafone.co.uk/dispatc...ageID=PTC_0003

[autopilot]

Last year O2 did a similar thing - they stopped including 0870, 0845 etc number in your call minutes allowance.

Thousands of people complained and successfully got there contracts cancelled, even made the national press and the had to set up a tempory special department to deal with it. Must of cost them an incredible amount of money as they did not ask for the phones back either. I was 2 months into my contract and made about 1 0845 call a month, yet after a few stern calls to the right departments i got it cancelled. I also had to tell them i planned to make more calls to 0845 numbers in the next few months due to a new job and dealing with departments that use these numbers, which was true. They tried to fob me off, even kept telling me i could use www.saynoto0870.co.uk, but after asking for the right addresses to write to they admitted they had to refund. Then sold my N95 for £250 on eBay. Just my case alone probably cost them £100-200 quid.

It does not matter what the T&C's say, there is statutory UK law that covers these kinds of things. You should be able to cancel, but you might have to shout a bit.

[Saracen]

Originally Posted by autopilot

.....

It does not matter what the T&C's say, there is statutory UK law that covers these kinds of things. You should be able to cancel, but you might have to shout a bit.

Which law says that?

There are all sorts of laws that affect contracts. Some override contract terms, some provide a default situation if a contract term doesn't cover it, some embed implicit terms in contracts and some govern what happens when terms are considered unfair. But I'll be astonished if you can come up with a law that says a company can't increase prices on services in line with stated contract terms and provided such changes are reasonable.

And shouting a bit doesn't always help. If they are within their rights, many mobile service providers can and do use legal means to enforce contracts ... as they are entitled to do. It is, after all, a contract.

[autopilot]

Originally Posted by Saracen

It is, after all, a contract.

Exactly. It is two way, binds both customer and company. It would be ludicrous if the law did not cover price increases, it's completely unfair when you sign up to a price plan in good faith. It was a git grey and revolved around the words 'reasonable' and 'significant', but thats subjective and you can argue that it's significant to you and that they cant predict how much it would reasonably effect you in the future. I forget which laws etc now, it was a few months back. I believe all the info was on http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/.

Im no expert, i'm just saying that a similar situation arose last year with O2 and everyone got their contracts cancelled, regardless of what O2 said in their T&C's, thats all. The situation might be different here, but i cant see how really. Maybe O2 are just kinder!

[Saracen]

Indeed, it binds both consumer and company, but that what contract terms are for - it tells you what you're being bound to.

Essentially, neither party to a contract can unilaterally change the terms of the contract, if the effect of that change would be fundamental. If such a change to terms would be such that you would not have entered into the contract had the changed terms been in operation at the time.

However, prices applied to services aren't terms. And the terms do apply to how prices can be changed.

Think about it. If no supplier could change prices, or could even change prices significantly, gas and electricity companies couldn't change their tariffs without breaking their contracts, and therefore effectively having to issue new contracts to millions of customers every time prices changed. And they sure have changed recently, and not by small amounts either. Have those changes invalidated the contracts or broken terms? Nope.

As for what happened with O2, well, it might be suggestive but it won't necessarily be the same. For a start, their T&Cs will be different, and perhaps substantially so. They may also have conceded the point for PR reasons, not because they had to do so. Who knows.

I may be proved wrong, but I still think that vodaphone can do this, and unless either the effect triggers those escape provisions or some consumer legislation I'm not aware of applies, it won't invalidate contracts or allow the consumer to cancel.

[autopilot]

Originally Posted by Saracen

Think about it. If no supplier could change prices, or could even change prices significantly, gas and electricity companies couldn't change their tariffs without breaking their contracts, and therefore effectively having to issue new contracts to millions of customers every time prices changed. And they sure have changed recently, and not by small amounts either. Have those changes invalidated the contracts or broken terms? Nope.

What gas/electricity 12 months contact? the big difference is that you are not usually locked into a 12-18 month contract. If you gas goes up, switch to a different firm. I dont know anyone who is locked into a 12 month contract with a gas or electricity firm. Of course it might be that they all put the price up like they are doing, but the point is that you are not bound to that particular company in a 12 month contract. There are some fixed 12 months contracts with some gas/electricity companies, but they are usually based on fixed or 'frozen' prices. The other difference is that you just pay for what you use, not a £30 (or whatever) fee then more on top.

[JPreston]

The reason that Vodafone have changed their pricing, is that (in common with all UK operators) they have been required to do so by OFCOM who earlier this year mandated that pricing to essentially all 08* numbers equal the rate charged in respect of calls to fixed line numbers outside of a customer's allowance. This was intended to improve clarity of pricing. Too bad it meant price increases...

At the same time the customer notification standard was slackened (hence you only got a text, not a proper written letter) and it was clarified that this DOES NOT entitle customers to break contract. Calling 08* numbers is a 'non-core service', in contrast to increasing voice rates for all numbers, and you effectively only have the right to stop calling them.

This was done after the usual rounds of extensive industry consultation involving the most expert legal advice in the country and since freeing all of the UK's contracts customers at a stroke would be catastrophic to the industry, you can be pretty confident that this will not result. YMMV I suppose...ultimately it depends what kind of day your customer service operative has been having, but in general all contracts remain valid.

OFCOM would do better to regulate the use of 08* numbers out of existence IMO as they are nothing more than a method for cynical businesses to wring extra pennies out of their customers (even worse that public services also use these).

www.saynoto0870.com FTW!

[tsj]

Apparently this change isn't a good enough reason to be able to cancel your contract with them...

[Saracen]

Originally Posted by autopilot

What gas/electricity 12 months contact? the big difference is that you are not usually locked into a 12-18 month contract. If you gas goes up, switch to a different firm. I dont know anyone who is locked into a 12 month contract with a gas or electricity firm. Of course it might be that they all put the price up like they are doing, but the point is that you are not bound to that particular company in a 12 month contract. There are some fixed 12 months contracts with some gas/electricity companies, but they are usually based on fixed or 'frozen' prices. The other difference is that you just pay for what you use, not a £30 (or whatever) fee then more on top.

I agree about the lock in, but that's merely another term. You get benefits (usually cheap of free phones) and the "price" you pay is a minimum commitment. Given that the contract contains terms that cover (and limit) price rises, or rather, the effect on customer's bills, I think it is not only fair but perfectly legal that they can do this.

There's nothing unreasonable about what they're doing, especially given the limits imposed by the contract, and it can therefore have only a limited effect on users. If the effect of these changes was so large as to fundamentally affect the contract, then there would be a potential way out of the contract but it might take a test case to prove the point. As it is, and I could be proved wrong, I can't see any way that will happen. Anyone too badly affected can use the get-out clauses, and anyone not that badly affected will have difficulty justifying why a price rise with minimal effect should serve to invalidate the contract, given that the contract stated up front that this could happen.

And of course, if people didn't read the contract, that certainly doesn't serve as a reason to get out of it. So, people either knew this could happen, or should have, yet signed up anyway.

[Whiternoise]

This may be a stupid question, but don't most contracts basically specify that you pay X and for that you get texts and minutes. The texts are simply text messages to any network and the minutes will be to any network/normal landline. Most extra numbers - like 0800 - are charged at a different rate and are therefore not included in your free minutes?

The key phrase, to my mind is "price plan non standard calls"

Thus when you signed up for your contract, you agreed that you would pay a flat rate for everything "standard", all the extras are subject to change. If they upped the price of your contract (say from £15 to £20) then you'd be well within your rights to up and leave, but this isn't the same.