I have new focus for my hatred.

[Howard]

I bought a "Large sedan" because I like the comfort, quality and toys that you get with larger vehicles as opposed to a supermini. I do not find that I need anything tall, I can see quite happily as far up ahead as need be without needing to be 20 ft off the ground, and I'm quite content with my car's crumple zones and four airbags.

Anything else strikes me as a substitute for skill (it's often aparant too, when watching some people (ok, women) attempting to drive/park these behemoths).

This of course applies less when you live in the middle of nowhere, for example, and you hvae to navigate treacherous slippery, dangerous roads or mountains especially in winter time, but in urban areas they're simply not necessary.


@ Nicho, I know what you mean, I hate not being able to see through them! I just stop the car's length back from the roundabout junction, no harm in doing that

[usxhe190]

i understand what you mean but i am just saying some people buy large sedans for the same reason they dont' buy smarts...coz it is passaenger safety rather than pedestrian safety

to be honest, it is very unlikely anyone looks at pedestrian safety before the following:
passenger safety
looks
features/functions
mpg

so unless there is something to outlaw 4x4 altogether, the people will always go towards the biggests...

[Howard]

To be fair, SMART cars aparantly do pretty well in crash testing

[Funkstar]

I both love and hate SUVs. I love them because they are big pieces of engineering, I hate them because they are pintless and usually owned by idiots.

However, if you can actually justify using a 4fw vehicle, thats fine. No problem, go buy a proper one for the purpose they are designed for.

I probably will get one at some point. It will probably be an old L200 pickup or something. Comfortable enought to drive for large distances but i can also hawl a load of gear at the same time. And take it half way up a hill for some hiking and camping

[usxhe190]

yes..i know...but have you seen a youtube video between a mercedes S-class vs a Smart...? Let just say I wouldn't want to be in the Smart...

[Flibb]

Why should people have to justify buying a 4x4? If you start thinking along those lines you can kiss goodbye to just about any interesting cars that are built, try and justify owning any sports car, most do far less mpg than a 4x4 and are incapable of carrying more than 2 people.

[nichomach]

The thing is, unless you drive like a complete tool/handheld-console-vapourware exec, then a sports car isn't anywhere near as likely to kill you. A super/hypercar on the road, as long as it's driven within the law is no more dangerous than, say, a Mondeo or something. If they hit a pedestrian, pedestrian'll likely go over the bonnet, if they hit another car, hey, their crumple zone, the other guy's crumple zone, who's counting, right? The design (height, profile etc) of big SUVs is inherently much more dangerous to anything, pedestrian or car, that they hit. They ride up over lower cars, bypassing such niceties as crumple zones in favour of crushing the passenger into a gooey red mess, and as far as pedestrians are concerned you'd probably do them less damage slamming them into a brick wall at 30mph; they'd get the same impact damage, but the wall wouldn't then roll over them with those nice 2ft high tyres. Also, supercars don't give me the same grief at roundabouts.

I'm not saying "ban them", just that I dislike them. A lot.

[Sinizter]

Trucks on the road are higher, block even visibility, drive even worse than 4x4s. How come I dont hear people moaning about them ?

[Howard]

People moan about lorries, just not nearly as much. Because without them, Britain would fail.

[Flibb]

If you look at the ncap raitings for cars like the Audi TT and MX-5 the pedestrian impact raitings are about the same as a large 4x4. Some of the small 4x4 actually score quiet well, along with the MGF?? A 2002 Range Rover scores the same as an Audi A3 for pedestrian safety, the bigger size of teh 4x4 makes bugger all difference, they end up being comparable to the rest of the car market.

[Nick]

Ok, look at it this way...

It's been mentioned further up the thread and I touched on it in my original post all those months ago...

Stick someone who's used to a Focus into a 4x4 and the FIRST thing they do is get nervous about how damn big it is and the fact they simply cannot see around themselves.

No, this isn't just women on the school run in their BM X5s, this is anyone in a large 4x4... the all round visibility is hugely reduced comapred to even a Mondeo Estate.

So, nervous driver, big powerful engine and lack of visibility equals crash.

You know why you can't drive a bloody great lorry on a basic license? Cos you have to be trained to handle something so damn big. For sure, 4x4s aren't as big as an artic but they're a lot more of a handful to drive properly than a normal car with due care and attention to other road users.

I've lost count of the number of cyclists I've seen forced into the kerb by these things where the road is too narrow for a wide 4x4 and the driver either doesn't see or just doesn't care about the cyclist.

And have you ever tried to go around a two lane roundabout with a 4x4 next to you? If he's on your inside you get pushed out as he swings wide and if you're inside of him he'll creep into your lane to straighten out the turn.

There's 5 houses in my street and 3 of them have 4x4s. One uses it for towing and taking the quad bike out to track events, so that's fair enough, Another works for a local shoot, so he's off roading everyday but the last is the classic case of status symbol and guess what? Neither of them can reverse off their drive without the other seeing them back, purely because they can't see where they're going.

In fact, the other day he clonked the damn road sign for the street name as he couldn't see it on the outside of his swing as he turned into the road!

What'd make me happier would be if there was a compulsory 4x4 test you had to take, just like they do for motorbikes. Let's TEACH these people how to drive their cars. And no, I'm not talking about sending a Lexus over some 45 degrees slope in the mud, I'm talking about someone sitting with them to explain the challenges their new car presents them.

In the meantime, if it's ok to buy a 4x4 so you don't get killed in an accident, never mind what happens to everyone else, surely it's only fair that us non-4x4 drivers get an even shot too? In which case, we're allowed to indiscriminately kill 4x4 drivers, so they're not around to kill US in an accident... come on, fair's fair.

[Funkstar]

Originally Posted by Nick

Stick someone who's used to a Focus into a 4x4 and the FIRST thing they do is get nervous about how damn big it is and the fact they simply cannot see around themselves.

Compeletely true. en we had an L200 at work i was never able to reverse it properly. I guess i could have with some practise. I'm also fairly used to driving a transit as well, but fr some reason they are actually easier to drive. Might have tomsething to do with the two mirrors on each side of the vehicle, they are there for a reason

[Flibb]

Originally Posted by Nick

Ok, look at it this way...

Stick someone who's used to a Focus into a 4x4 and the FIRST thing they do is get nervous about how damn big it is and the fact they simply cannot see around themselves.

Stick the same person in a rear wheel drive porsche / BMW / Lotus etc, again they dont need to pass a test but they are a danger to themselves and other road users. The vast majority of 4x4 are no more powerful than a standard mondeo, so the talk of hudge engines is basically wrong. Then you get on to visibility, most 4x4 have a straight back on them, no sticking out bits, they also have excellent forward visibility and very large wing mirrors, if you cant park that, then maybe you shouldnt be driving. My mate has just switched from a Disco 3, to a jag, the disco is easier to park due to the hudge mirros, and straight back. The vast majority of suvs sold in the UK are shorter and narrower than a mondeo.

[Sinizter]

Their lack of training does not mean that 4x4s are the root of all evil.

I used to live in Dubai for a long time, and everyone in my family is used to 4x4s. People who own 4x4s there get used to them and drive decently afterwards.

Take a person with no spatial awareness and the affect is the same whether they drive a micra or a 4x4 - crap driving.

You want to rant at bad drivers, go ahead - Ill be first in line right behind you. Your inane ranting at bad drivers in 4x4s is just plain silly. The same people in a powerful sports cars are probably even more dangerous than in 4x4s.

Take all your anti-4x4 logic and apply it a normal large car meant mainly for single driver + 1 passenger use and its overkill. The whole nation should be driving 800cc Nissan micras or people carriers.

edit - sorry if the above post rambles a bit. But it does make sense.

[nichomach]

Originally Posted by Sinizter

Trucks on the road are higher, block even visibility, drive even worse than 4x4s. How come I dont hear people moaning about them ?

Because they're there for a reason; trucks need to be that size because they move large amounts of stuff; and yes I do complain about them when they're driven badly. You do not need a freakin' SUV to drop Tarquin and Jemima off and survive the carpark at Waitrose.

[Sinizter]

Originally Posted by nichomach

Because they're there for a reason; trucks need to be that size because they move large amounts of stuff; and yes I do complain about them when they're driven badly. You do not need a freakin' SUV to drop Tarquin and Jemima off and survive the carpark at Waitrose.

And neither do you need a large saloon to drive yourself to work. A smart/micra would do.

Need & want bear no real correlation to each other.

You drive what you want, let others drive what they want.