I have new focus for my hatred.

[usxhe190]

to be honest, i think it is more about driver ability (or perceived ability) than the car

i still remember when i was young, the old people would shout at me to slow down although i drove within the speed limit...i think it was because of the "fast looking" nature of the car and the fact that i was young...

the only bad thing about 4x4 is the perceived safety which i recommend them to spend more on actual safety...and the low mpg etc...but i think the 4x4 plus suv market is trying to make them safer..

as for pedestrian safety, this should be more a priority..but then no one really cares about that

tricky question, which one is worst, a 1980 volvo 240 or a 2006 lexus rx?...who knows...

[schmunk]

Originally Posted by Sinizter

And neither do you need a large saloon to drive yourself to work. A smart/micra would do.

Please... not a Micra!!!

[Nick]

Originally Posted by usxhe190

tricky question, which one is worst, a 1980 volvo 240 or a 2006 lexus rx?...who knows...

Easy, Lexus is worse as the the Volvo is very likely scrap by now.

[nichomach]

Originally Posted by Sinizter

And neither do you need a large saloon to drive yourself to work. A smart/micra would do.
Need & want bear no real correlation to each other.
You drive what you want, let others drive what they want.

Actually, to transport my sprog to nursery and myself to work (and the wife in to work on quite a few occasions) and also to shift kit around when I get there, you're right, I don't need a saloon, I need an estate, which is what I'll probably get to replace the Astra that I currently drive. It'll also be a lot more useful on holidays. I still won't be driving a car that's designed to kill other people, and gets in the way of other people at roundabouts etc. I'd also note that a Smart/Micra is no bloody use on the motorway which, hey, is what I drive on every day.

In fact, you have no ****ing idea where I work, what my job involves, or who I transport around, so your bland assertion as to what would be adequate is based on nothing more than what you'd like to be true to support your farcical attempt at drawing a moral equivalence, whereas my observation of who exactly is driving around in massive soft-roaders is just that - observation.

That said, as I said above, I'm not saying "ban them"; I'm saying that I don't like them, that there's no justification for them in probably 90% of cases and that they're a pain in the backside in a lot of situations. So go ahead and drive around in one of these wallowy, expensive and dangerous wheeled canal boats if you like. I'm not stopping you, and if you live somewhere that needs 4WD and high ground clearance to get around, then great, I'll support you. If on the other hand you are, as most owners of these land barges seem to be, driving it as a combination status symbol and weapon, then again, I'm not proposing that you be prevented from doing so. It's just that I, and rather a lot of other people, will think that you're a pillock. Fair enough?

[dangel]

Isn't this all rather pointless anyway? In all honesty what sort of percentage of road users are 4x4 drivers anyway? Thesedays they're basically too expensive for the majority run (fuel/tax) and this is only going to get worse with the road tax rising (500 quid wasn't it?) too. They're already being priced off the road. I don't see them in large numbers round here and i'm in farming country - they're far outnumbered by normal, everyday, dull cars. I'm faaaaaaaaaar more worried about lorries - there's a lot more of them on the roads round here (because of the ports) and they're constantly involved in fatal accidents. It wasn't so long back that a 4x4 was turned into a pancake by one on the A10 in fact.. Ouch.

I can't say i've been inclined to abuse, spit or otherwise derride a 4x4 owner any more than any other driver. Of course, you'll get that if you tailgate me, cut me up or otherwise drive badly - but these things are sadly not the sole result of buying a 4x4 or any other car. No, it's down to the driver. I'll give you that certainly vehicles inspire bad driving though - and perhaps the notion of safety by a large vehicle breeds carelessness (in the same way I believe premium-car drivers gain arrogance) but there's rotten apples in any group tbh.

As for the environment - i'd rather we concentrate on BUILDINGs which generate far more CO2 than all road transport COMBINED, and especially in the sense of businesses who are happy to leave everything on all bloody night for no apparent reason (air con, lights, pcs). Road users are a softer target though (hey we'll put up with anything) aren't they? I guess they probably don't lobby government quite so much either Ohhh i'm a cynic me

Or am I just being annoyingly practical?

[nichomach]

Originally Posted by dangel

I don't see them in large numbers round here and i'm in farming country - they're far outnumbered by normal, everyday, dull cars.

I think that's the point; rather than being driven in places where they might well be a good idea, they're being used as urban status symbols and (in effect) weapons by people who don't need them, but whose thought processes run something like:
"Well, I could EITHER:
a) Learn to drive properly, learn to control my car, and have regard for other road users; or
b) Choose to drive an SUV on the basis that I don't have to do any of the former, since if I hit anything, they die, not me.
That'd be option b) then."

Originally Posted by dangel

I'm faaaaaaaaaar more worried about lorries - there's a lot more of them on the roads round here (because of the ports) and they're constantly involved in fatal accidents. It wasn't so long back that a 4x4 was turned into a pancake by one on the A10 in fact.. Ouch.

I know what you mean - and in the great game of car crash roulette, artic >= <anything else>. That said, I (being an annoying git) WILL use those "How's my driving?" numbers on the back of trucks if I've been endangered by one. It might not do any good, but you never know. Most SUVs don't actually have those, though...

Originally Posted by dangel

I'll give you that certainly vehicles inspire bad driving though - and perhaps the notion of safety by a large vehicle breeds carelessness (in the same way I believe premium-car drivers gain arrogance) but there's rotten apples in any group tbh.

Let's just say that I think the 4x4 barrel has an annoyingly high rotten:good apple ratio .

Originally Posted by dangel

As for the environment ...Or am I just being annoyingly practical?

No, you're not at all; we're putting up buildings that use alternative/renewable energy sources as well as things like micro generation to reduce environmental impact; it's a damneed good point.

[dangel]

Originally Posted by nichomach

I think that's the point; rather than being driven in places where they might well be a good idea, they're being used as urban status symbols and (in effect) weapons by people who don't need them, but whose thought processes run something like:
"Well, I could EITHER:
a) Learn to drive properly, learn to control my car, and have regard for other road users; or
b) Choose to drive an SUV on the basis that I don't have to do any of the former, since if I hit anything, they die, not me.
That'd be option b) then."

To be clear - i live in the country but work in Cambridge so i'm probably seeing a reasonable slice of both. I don't doubt they're more prolific in affluent areas of Londinium though.
I'd agree they're bought as status symbols by some (or to treat erectile disfunctions), for their high driving position by others and as a shield for their kids by the rest. I really don't think people buy them as weapons though - in fact, it's probably the 'need to protect' imperitive that drives (no pun intended) chelsea mums more than anything else. Dunno - tbh I don't like them because they're too big and unwieldly. But I do have a friend who has a disco (7 seats) which is useful when we're all going out once in a blue moon.

Originally Posted by nichomach

I know what you mean - and in the great game of car crash roulette, artic >= <anything else>. That said, I (being an annoying git) WILL use those "How's my driving?" numbers on the back of trucks if I've been endangered by one. It might not do any good, but you never know. Most SUVs don't actually have those, though...

Problem is, a lot of lorries are foreign and even if they did had a number i'm not going to pay £££'s to have some bloke go 'que?' at me down the phone

Originally Posted by nichomach

Let's just say that I think the 4x4 barrel has an annoyingly high rotten:good apple ratio .

Well I got let out by a BMW this morning - so there's obviously hope for us all

Originally Posted by nichomach

No, you're not at all; we're putting up buildings that use alternative/renewable energy sources as well as things like micro generation to reduce environmental impact; it's a damneed good point.

Indeed. It (family guy) 'grinds my gears' that we can't focus on the more important things - not least because the issue i highlighted really wouldn't affect joe public and would probably save companies a lot of wonga too. Win/win.

[Flibb]

Equally you don’t have clue about the lives of people that own 4x4's many quote the same reasons for owning them as you do for thinking of getting an estate. The well off people I know that have discovery’s take family holidays so the 7 seat arrangement is great, or tow a caravan / go camping. Many people buy them for the seating position, especially if they suffer with back problems, other buy them just because they like them, bit like buying anything interesting. The comments about them being taxed off the road don’t hold water, many do equivalent mpg to large family car or people carrier, and there are currently no 4x4 specific taxes. There are currently 3 4x4 in my family, the build dates are 1961, 1972, 1992. The 2 older ones are tax exempt so cost bugger all to own. Only one has been in an accident and that was when a KA went up the arse of it, 1 year old KA was taken to the scrap yard, the Land Rovers paint wasn’t scratched, probably because they hit the tank guard and towing plate. Nobody was injured, and the accident took place at around 40 mph.

[Nemz0r]

I don't really like the unnecessary 4x4s owned by mums to take the kids to school! After reading here about them getting them for safety of their own passengers and crushing other cars roofs in accidents when they go up and over, I found it very amusing when I was listening to radio 2 at work when someone phoned in and said they had been in an accident with a 4x4. Casually adding to the end of their story that luckily they were driving a twelve tonne coach and thus didn't come away from the accident as badly as the 4x4 . "There's always a bigger fish" as they say .

[|_GuNsLiNgEr_|]

Some of the posts in this threadmake me furious.

1st.
Why is it as evil to buy a sedan instead of a smart car? Smart cars carry 2 people and have relatively little boot space.
Would it be possible that you might have more then 2 people in your family? Would it be possible you might not live in a city which is the only place a smart car can function correctly?

2nd.
4x4 are not well engineered at all. the Ford F150 an American built 4x4 beast. Only scored 1 star in teh saftery tests. it ways over 3 tonnes, but that doesn't necesarrily meant they are safe.
4x4 flips much easier then normal cars, tehy have aa higher center of gravity. they cost more on petrol. They take longer to stop. they take longer to accelerate. How on earth are they safer? They give you a higher chance of crashing the bloody thing. And when you do, you kill some poor old granny in her micra!
A 4 wheel drive "sedan" will handle as well in the snow as a 4x4. Anyway, as somone has said it is more dependant on the driver hten the car they are driving.

The amount of times I'm write, when see an BMW X5 and say theres a women driving that, if I got £1 everytime. I'd be minted.

Ban 4's from london, or give them there own Congestion charge in any city. Give them stricter regulations on safety where the other drivers safety is considered.
Actaully engineer the engines correctly unlike any american is able to do, where you can get some decent power out of a 2 liter as oppossed to an 8 litre v99999999!

Grrrrr.....it makes me so angry.

Estates > 4X4

[GSte]

I'm with you OP, a 50-odd year old woman drove into me in some Toyota 4x4 last year. She was doing 5mph if that and caused £1800 worth of damage to my car. She also bought it so she'd be 'safer'.... safer in terms of injury to herself presumably, definitely NOT safer for other road users, she couldn't drive it for **** as you say.....

[Jay]

Nick at one time I would have said maybe your a bit over the top but not long ago some one rolled up in the car park in a escalade and blocked out the sun.

I agree, 4x4 on the road is a danger and it needs to be looked at.