Suggestions for a SFF .

[Dashers]

Depending on the software in use and the amount of editing/filtering going on the Celeron might not have the CPU oomph. Plus audio tends to be very IO heavy, and I wouldn't trust the 32GB of flash storage in that NUC to last more than one recording session at best (I used to have my DAW running on an older SSD and after about 2 editing sessions the whole thing ground to a halt from hitting write amplification).

So get an i7 NUC with a fully fledged SSD, M.2. or SATA.

e.g.
http://www.intel.co.uk/content/www/u...nuc7i7bnh.html

[scaryjim]

Right:

Reading around, while pro tools does multi-thread, it's limited to a maximum of one thread per channel (channels can share a thread, though). There's no point in him having more threads available than channels he's using - so finding out how many channels he typically records/edits would be helpful. If he uses a lot of filters and effects each channel could (apparently) fully load its thread, so the potential is there for a smaller number of faster threads to be better than a larger number of slower threads.

I have no idea how Pro Tools handles IO when applying filters and doing editing. I'd offer to download the trial, but just to use the trial you need a £40 USB auth key, so that's not going to happen The suggestion of multiple SSDs sounds good to me - a small entry-level one for Windows and a larger, higher end one for Pro Tools plugins etc and current working project (this really needs to have excellent degraded performance*) and a huge HDD (3TB+) for bulk storage and non-audio programs (like his games library, if he's going to insist on gaming on it too ).

I'm not convinced that £800 ex VAT would get him the spec he's requested, but it should get something pretty close. As you say, Ryzen pricing is probably key to this: if he wants small and portable that's going to ideal want mATX, and getting a Ryzen-supporitng mATX motherboard is going to be a lot cheaper than anything for s2011! In the mean time I'll have a play with some of the other component options to work out what budget would be left for the mobo/CPU...

EDIT for fogotten footnote!
* Hexus used to include consistency testing in their SSD reviews, but a) haven't reviewed as SSD in a year, and b) dropped this test some time before that. Here's a link to the last consistency test I can find ot give you an idea, though: http://hexus.net/tech/reviews/storag...-240gb/?page=5

EDIT for crosspost

So get an i7 NUC with a fully fledged SSD, M.2. or SATA. ...

That's essentially a desktop i3 and still only has a single storage slot - thaty's far from ideal for a DAW. Plus it won't take the firewire card the guy seems to need, the GPU he wants for occasional gaming, the additional soundcard he's specified ... have you even read Phage's post today?

[MrJim]

After a bit of a delay I have received this email from my friend. Obvioulsy Ryzen is the big variable, but suggestions on the rest are very useful

Well, finally, ten days after we spoke, I'm able to sit down and think about what I need from my PC! So, here goes:

•RAM - DDR4 2133MHz 16GB RAM

•Startech PEX 1394B3 PCIe card - has to be this one as it's one of the few guaranteed to be compatible with my audio interface
•Big fat SSD - for all the reasons you mentioned, but maybe have a HDD as well to keep all the big programs on?? Somebody actually recommended two SSDs - one SSD for Windows and Pro Tools, another SSD for plugins and samples and virtual instruments, and a hard drive for storing sessions. Sounds expensive though!

•i7-5820K CPU
•Asus X99-A Motherboard (or equivalent if you have a better recommendation)
•Separate graphics card just in case I want to play games!
•High quality case fans (our PCs do seem to get hot in this room) paired with a noise-dampening PC case - ideally a case that I can easily transport from the living room to the workshop. A tower with handles or something maybe?

•Sound card - ASUS Xonar DX or similar??

Really appreciate you taking a look at this for me. Do you think I can build this for under £800 (excluding VAT)?

Cheers!

Steve

It sounds as if he's no longer thinking of going down the ITX route, since he mentions the ATX Asus X99-A? Also, it sounds as of he needs at least three PCI slots, for the Startech card, GPU, and sound card? That makes the choice of case a bit harder, if he wants one with a carrying handle.

[scaryjim]

... it sounds as of he needs at least three PCI slots, for the Startech card, GPU, and sound card? ...

If he want to game on that card it'll be 4 slots, as the card will almost inevitably come with a dual-slot cooler.

mATX is still very much on the cards, but the motherboard will need some thought to ensure that all the required PCIe slots are available...

And mATX cases with handles can be had - this is a little on the pricey side but would fit the bill... http://www.ebuyer.com/773794-cooler-...-rc-902xb-kkn2 - one big plus with that case is the top 200mm fan - it'll be efficient at removing heat without making noise (my rack-mount DAW used a passive heatsink on the CPU and a single 140mm top exhaust and was almost silent...)

EDIT: that said, there are options for full ATX cases with carry handles too: https://www.novatech.co.uk/products/...005-kwn00.html

[Phage]

Thanks to you both.

I'm thinking a Ryzen base with something like that Coolermaster HAF XB

I'll ask about the number of channels.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

It looks like the 8 core Ryzen 1700 might be worth a look.

[scaryjim]

... I'll ask about the number of channels.

Ask about the number of effects & filters per channel as well - lots of filters will benefit from a higher clocked CPU rather than more cores.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Ask about the number of effects & filters per channel as well - lots of filters will benefit from a higher clocked CPU rather than more cores.

Well that is the problem though - it really looks like AMD might have a better SMT implementation,so if they are maxing out 16 threads,AMD would probably be faster overall.

The other thing is that with an 8C/16T or 6C/12T CPU is simply better at multi-tasking. You can dedicate certain threads to the tasks you need to run and have extra power available to do other things without the PC locking up.

Edit!!

This is why my mate has had his Phenom II X6 so long - it actually could run tasks assigned to five of its cores,whilst leaving a single core to run basic OS stuff.

[scaryjim]

... it really looks like AMD might have a better SMT implementation,so if they are maxing out 16 threads,AMD would probably be faster overall. ...

Indeed, but the software won't spread channel processing over more than one thread, so if he's using lots of filters the 1700X would make a lot more sense (despite the higher TDP) due to the > 10% increase in base clock speed. And if his absolute maximum is 8 channels an i7-7700k might be better still, with higher IPC and higher clock speeds. It's all very much usage dependent.

For a high-channel-count low-effect scenario the R7 1700 will be an excellent CPU. If he uses a lot of effects then the waters get muddier.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Indeed, but the software won't spread channel processing over more than one thread, so if he's using lots of filters the 1700X would make a lot more sense (despite the higher TDP) due to the > 10% increase in base clock speed. And if his absolute maximum is 8 channels an i7-7700k might be better still, with higher IPC and higher clock speeds. It's all very much usage dependent.

For a high-channel-count low-effect scenario the R7 1700 will be an excellent CPU. If he uses a lot of effects then the waters get muddier.

The problem is I had this discussion here 5 years ago regarding a build - a mate was running bioinformatics stuff which tend to hog single threads quite a bit(well one of the packages he was using). This is stuff which lasted for days at a time,perhaps longer. So a Core i5 technically would be faster over a Phenom II X6,except in terms of throughput we realised the AMD CPU would win out.

Plus,if he actually wanted to use the PC when doing stuff,dropping from 6 to 5 cores on the Phenom II X6 would still produce more throughput than going from 4 to 3 cores on a Core i5.

Edit!!

Things get murkier,especially if AMD has better SMT scaling than Intel - it means Intel will only have a lead for upto 4 threads.

Second Edit!!

Another issue is that the Intel platform is limited to a Core i7 7700K - if the friend of the OP changes workloads to those using more threads it means they will be need to change platform.

The Core i7 7700K platform is not flexible enough.

[Phage]

Just for background - whilst I'm waiting for replies, he's a drummer in a Rock/Metal band.
From what i can gather he only does one thing at a time - music in the studio, gaming in the lounge. The primary use will be in the studio, so must be quiet and fast, but with room for a little light gaming later

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Just for background - whilst I'm waiting for replies, he's a drummer in a Rock/Metal band.
From what i can gather he only does one thing at a time - music in the studio, gaming in the lounge. The primary use will be in the studio, so must be quiet and fast, but with room for a little light gaming later

It isn't so much that - if you max out 8 threads on the Core i7 the CPU the system will slow down to a halt. Having a few extra threads will be useful in case he needs to check an e-mail,etc.

[scaryjim]

Just for background ... he's a drummer in a Rock/Metal band. ...

Wouldn't want to live next door while the band are recording

OTOH, that suggests to me that they won't be layering up a huge number of tracks or applying lots of effects and processing on each track. I reckon the R7 1700 - which is finally on pre-order for £320 inc VAT - will do the job nicely. There's plenty of AM4 motherboards up for pre-order at < £100 inc VAT too - I like the look of the ASRock AB350M Pro4 (https://www.scan.co.uk/products/asro...lusc-microatx) - 4 RAM slots, 2 M.2 slots (one NVME, one SATA), and the PCIe slots are ideally spaced for his needs.

So for ~ £340 ex VAT you can get an 8C/16T procesor and decent mATX motherboard that meets all his platform needs. That leaves ~ £550 inc VAT for the rest of the build. It'll still be tight-ish, but there's definitely scope for getting a reasonable build around the HAF XB in there. I'll have a play tomorrow and see if I can put a recommendation together (as long as he's willing to wait for Ryzen processors and motherboards to hit the shops!)...

[Phage]

Thanks - much appreciated. I think Ryzen would be the wayn to go. Possibly for me too !
I've copied his reply below to your questions.


Hmm, well, I'd be recording via the electronic kit which will send midi notes into the PC, which will then trigger the sounds in the virtual drum software I have. Drum virtual instruments have their own mixer to control the mix of the individual drum and room mics. Not sure you need to do anything special except record the midi, then use the virtual instrument's mixer to play with the individual drum sounds until the levels/effects are sorted - then save it as a single track on the music production software (Pro Tools, Cakewalk or Reaper etc). So recording multiple channels simultaneously isn't really a requirement right now. My Saffire Pro audio interface has 8 inputs though, so technically I could record 8 instruments at the same time (or I could mic up my acoustic drum kit and have the separate channels for bass/snare/toms/cymbals recording simultaneously) if I wanted to.

Regarding your second email, effects and filters aren't going to be that important. It's just for recording demo drum parts for the bands I play in really - they'll send me files of their songs without drums on and I'll whack them onto a single track. I'll then play my drum part into the PC via my audio interface which sends it all through the Firewire cable. I'm happy with my choice of CPU - it seems to be recommended by a lot of guys who have built PCs to record music on. It'll be more than up to the job. It does require that I get DDR4 RAM though.

Given that I'll use a fair amount of drum samples, I'm really sold on the idea of two SSds plus a massive HDD now. Samples really eat up memory and having them on a dedicated SSD along with the music software seems like a good idea.

Other than the stuff below, a handful of USB ports and a CD/DVD drive/burner are a must of course!

[scaryjim]

Heh, yeah, pretty much anything will do what he wants - since he's using an electronic kit and just adding a drum track to pre-recorded mixes it's going to take very little processing power. And I know he's set himself on the 2 SSD thing, but tbh I'd be tempted to drop an SSD in favour of 32GB of RAM. Getting all the samples & drum sounds into RAM is going to be a lot better than swapping them off a disk, although I suspect that even 16GB would be enough to load the samples for a virtual kit - each individual sample is going to be pretty small.

It's an interesting workflow/setup - Recording the rest of the band separately to the drums. Not entirely sure I approve, speaking as a musician But it doesn't sound like it needs anything particularly special in terms of processing (since most of the processing will be handled in the audio interfaces and the virtual instruments, rather than the DAW). I used to run my recording rig off a 45W triple core Athlon with a USB interface and that handled multitrack overdubbing and playback without any issues.

Thinking about the comparitive performance leaks we've seen, the R7 1700 should have similar IPC to Haswell E, and has a higher boost clock, more cores, and a much lower TDP than the 5820k. The upshot of that is that it should performance at least as well if not better, whilst producing a lot less heat so being much easier to cool (equals a lot less noise). I think he should be easily persuadable to Ryzen on that basis

[Phage]

So if we go Ryzen 1700, what would you recommend of the storage front ?
One big-arsed SSD ? and 32Gb RAM ?