DSLR advice needed

[GSte]

Originally Posted by Bobster

as you are generally throught to know what you are doing by owning one

Well everyone's gotta start somewhere!

Think I'm getting the hang of things now, suprised at how limited the settings on some of the auto modes are, but full manual seems to be the way to go. Do you just get used to selecting the correct ISO setting, or do you use a light meter?

[Blastuk]

Originally Posted by GSte

Well everyone's gotta start somewhere!

Think I'm getting the hang of things now, suprised at how limited the settings on some of the auto modes are, but full manual seems to be the way to go. Do you just get used to selecting the correct ISO setting, or do you use a light meter?

I personally get a feeling for what ISO I need and I set it as low as possible and then use the camera meter to adjust accordingly.
Always check the histogram after you shoot an image to make sure you didn't ruin the shot by having blown highlights etc..

[Bobster]

Originally Posted by GSte

Do you just get used to selecting the correct ISO setting, or do you use a light meter?

general rule of thumb

ISO100/200 bright days (some cloud) lots of light needed for fast shutter speed
ISO400/800 overcast or late afternoon
ISO1600+ indoors

[kalniel]

Originally Posted by GSte

Think I'm getting the hang of things now, suprised at how limited the settings on some of the auto modes are, but full manual seems to be the way to go.

I think full manual is a snobs tool For me, it's a solution to get around specific problems, but in general I will know what the determining factor is to get the shot I want and will use the semi-manual mode that allows me to do that (and exposure compensation). Yes, I also use full manual +auto ISO which should be considered another semi-manual mode.

Do you just get used to selecting the correct ISO setting, or do you use a light meter?

The camera is a light meter. If I've got time I'll use it as such as it's much better at judging exposure than I am. Theoretically you could start at the base ISO level, check exposure and that it fits within the shooting parameters you want for the shot, if not, go up to next ISO level etc. - or if your camera has a decent auto-ISO mode it'll do that for you (as long as it agrees with you on the parameters front). But if not then manually setting the same levels roughly as Bob describes is a pretty good start. If you use the semi-manual modes then you'll quickly get a feel for whether you've selected the right ISO or not - the camera will meter and adjust the one parameter you've let it control.. and when it's saying you need a 30 second exposure at a kids birthday party you know you need to increase the ISO a bit!

You will also have to teach yourself not to pixel peep when it comes to noise - smoothness with modern crop sensor DSLRs is entirely artificial and the result of either the photographer or the camera doing something post process. In a lot of cases what looks like quite bad noise when you're working on the image is absolutely trivial when it comes to resizing or printing. However massively underexposing a shot, or blurring the shot, or just missing the shot altogether are all far worse things to deal with than noise, so really don't be afraid to bump up the ISO.

[GSte]

Originally Posted by Blastuk

I personally get a feeling for what ISO I need and I set it as low as possible and then use the camera meter to adjust accordingly.
Always check the histogram after you shoot an image to make sure you didn't ruin the shot by having blown highlights etc..

Use the camera meter? How would I do that? What do you mean by check the histogram? I am a total noob to this.

Originally Posted by kalniel

The camera is a light meter. If I've got time I'll use it as such

How?

Originally Posted by kalniel

pixel peep

What does that mean?

[Blastuk]

I'm tempted to say RTFM.. oh well..

When you half press the shutter button, the text that appears in your viewfinder shows you the shutter speed+aperture+iso

there will also be a bar along the bottom middle that shows the exposure.
If it's on the left then it will be under exposed, on the right will be over exposed.

When you shoot manual, this bar will tell you if the picture will be under/properly/over exposed.

Basically adjust your settings until the thing sits in the middle.

(seriously, read the manual)

I'll skip histogram and pixel peep for now.

[kalniel]

Originally Posted by GSte

Use the camera meter? How would I do that? What do you mean by check the histogram? I am a total noob to this.

How?

By default when you half press the shutter the camera meters the scene - it checks the level of light and calculates what is needed for a properly exposed shot (this is what a light meter is!). If you set an aperture then it will work out how long the shutter needs to be held open. If you set a shutter speed then it will work out how wide the aperture needs to be, all at a given ISO (sensitivity). In manual mode the metering is still active, and will tell you how far off your settings are from the correct settings that it calculates, and display this as a bar or a number in stops (eV) + or - from the correct exposure.

At the moment we're talking about whole scene metering (ie what the lens sees), but cameras also have other modes like centre weighted or spot, which reduce the area that the camera cares about in terms of getting the 'correct' exposure. (There are also sometimes other modes as well that we won't go into).

The histogram is a more advanced meter, rather than just telling you whether the scene (or portion) is exposed correctly, it tells you exactly how much of each scene falls into different levels of brightness. You can use it to meter as well, but it's more often used to check that the extremes of brightness/shadow still lie within the sensors recording range. Don't worry about it for now - it's not that helpful in getting exposure right in general.

What does that mean?

It means zooming into a picture either on the camera or more commonly on a computer screen until you can see each individual pixel. While it's important to be able to do that for some post process operations, in general it looks pretty bad because the most common types of camera don't actually record the full information at every pixel and you can see all the individual variation in sensitivities etc.

[Bobster]

Originally Posted by kalniel

The histogram is a more advanced meter, rather than just telling you whether the scene (or portion) is exposed correctly, it tells you exactly how much of each scene falls into different levels of brightness. You can use it to meter as well, but it's more often used to check that the extremes of brightness/shadow still lie within the sensors recording range. Don't worry about it for now - it's not that helpful in getting exposure right in general.

not helpful? of course it is, its essential that you understand how the histogram works to get proper exposure of a scene..

do not under any circumstance look at a shot on the back of the camera without the histogram and think mmm it looks ok on the screen must be ok (the LCD on the back of cameras can be adjusted in brightness and should not be trusted in anyway, apart from checking histogram and sharpness of a shot)

i was told a story by someone who attended a wedding with another photographer who was taking photographs, the looked at the back of the camera and said "hmm looks a little dark", they then went and adjusted the brightness on the screen, and continued shooting!

this is the viewfinder for your 500D

[kalniel]

Originally Posted by Bobster

not helpful? of course it is, its essential that you understand how the histogram works to get proper exposure of a scene..

Sorry, but I don't agree. People have been able to take properly exposed photos for years using the light meter in the camera and without any access to a histogram. The addition of the histogram hasn't suddenly rendered light meters useless. The histogram is still useful, as I said, in checking that you haven't blown highlights/lost shadow detail, not to mention more advanced techniques like deliberately 'mis'-exposing a scene to take advantage of sensor properties, but IMHO a beginner should be using the light meter to evaluate a scene and control exposure first and foremost, and then use these more advanced techniques once they are familiar with things.

[GSte]

Originally Posted by Blastuk

I'm tempted to say RTFM.. oh well..

When you half press the shutter button, the text that appears in your viewfinder shows you the shutter speed+aperture+iso

there will also be a bar along the bottom middle that shows the exposure.
If it's on the left then it will be under exposed, on the right will be over exposed.

When you shoot manual, this bar will tell you if the picture will be under/properly/over exposed.

Basically adjust your settings until the thing sits in the middle.

(seriously, read the manual)

I'll skip histogram and pixel peep for now.

Without meaning to sound ungrateful, to be fair it's obvious from my post that I'm completely new to this, so not surprising that I don't understand the terms you use is it? I have read the manual a lot since I bought the camera, but it's 220 pages and there's only so much a brain can absorb at once! Having checked the manual the info about histograms is in the section entitled "image playback", which I wouldn't have read for a long time (if ever) as I'm trying to get to grips with the basic functions and terminology at the moment. Isn't the idea of a forum that you can ask questions about things you don't understand though? If someone asks me which CPU or cooler or RAM kit to buy in the hardware section, I don't say "go and read about CPUs /coolers/RAM kits and figure it out yourself"!?!


Cheers for the info though everyone, your reply was particularly illuminating Kalniel.

Bobster, your story cracked me up!

[Bobster]

Originally Posted by kalniel

Sorry, but I don't agree. People have been able to take properly exposed photos for years using the light meter in the camera and without any access to a histogram.

yes and most used a hand held light meter.. and the ones that developed their own film even pushed stuff about in the darkroom..

Originally Posted by kalniel

The addition of the histogram hasn't suddenly rendered light meters useless. The histogram is still useful, as I said, in checking that you haven't blown highlights/lost shadow detail, not to mention more advanced techniques like deliberately 'mis'-exposing a scene to take advantage of sensor properties, but IMHO a beginner should be using the light meter to evaluate a scene and control exposure first and foremost, and then use these more advanced techniques once they are familiar with things.

using an in camera meter correctly takes teaching, as does use of the histogram, and i never said anything about rendering light meters useless..

Originally Posted by GSte

Bobster, your story cracked me up!

glad you got a laugh

Metering modes


depending on what you're shooting will determine which mode to use..

Evaluative and Center-weighted are useful for landscape shots (although i use it with my 70-200)
Spot and Partial are when you want to take a reading from a specific area within your scene (i have Partial set on my body i use for my wide angle lenses)

[Blastuk]

Originally Posted by Bobster

not helpful? of course it is, its essential that you understand how the histogram works to get proper exposure of a scene..

do not under any circumstance look at a shot on the back of the camera without the histogram and think mmm it looks ok on the screen must be ok (the LCD on the back of cameras can be adjusted in brightness and should not be trusted in anyway, apart from checking histogram and sharpness of a shot)

i was told a story by someone who attended a wedding with another photographer who was taking photographs, the looked at the back of the camera and said "hmm looks a little dark", they then went and adjusted the brightness on the screen, and continued shooting!

this is the viewfinder for your 500D

The histogram may be essential for you, but for people just starting out, not using it doesn't prevent them from taking great pictures, it only adds to the learning curve and complicates things.
I'm sure it won't be a problem to learn how to use it at a later time when all the other important things are familiarised.

Originally Posted by GSte

Without meaning to sound ungrateful, to be fair it's obvious from my post that I'm completely new to this, so not surprising that I don't understand the terms you use is it? I have read the manual a lot since I bought the camera, but it's 220 pages and there's only so much a brain can absorb at once! Having checked the manual the info about histograms is in the section entitled "image playback", which I wouldn't have read for a long time (if ever) as I'm trying to get to grips with the basic functions and terminology at the moment. Isn't the idea of a forum that you can ask questions about things you don't understand though? If someone asks me which CPU or cooler or RAM kit to buy in the hardware section, I don't say "go and read about CPUs /coolers/RAM kits and figure it out yourself"!?!


Cheers for the info though everyone, your reply was particularly illuminating Kalniel.

Bobster, your story cracked me up!

At the risk of sounding like a jerk once again:

My reason for the way I posted was because it literally sounded like you picked up the camera and started shooting without knowing how the camera works.
You said you have read the manual but your post indicated that you didn't even know about the existence of the camera's light meter.
You don't have to read all of it, but there are some pretty basic stuff you need to understand about the camera to utilise it properly, otherwise you can just stick it in full auto and use it like an expensive p&s.

[GSte]

I have been reading a certain amount then trying it out to gain a better understanding, mainly using the semi-auto modes so that I could concentrate on playing with the settings from the section I'd just read.... the manual doesn't explain what things do really, mainly just how to alter the settings using the various buttons/dials, so there isn't anything that mentions it having a light meter/how it works. There is a section on the different metering modes, but it doesn't explain about how light meters work or anything, just in which situations you'd use the different modes. Nothing in the manual is explained anywhere near as clearly or in depth as the replies I've received here do.

I am learning the basics as well as I can from the manual, but the info provided there is very limited and mainly discusses how to alter the various parameters as I say rather than explaining anything in great detail.... sure, I could probably buy a book and learn more that way, but using this board is much faster and has the added bonus that I can ask questions. And it is here to help people after all.

[Blastuk]

Originally Posted by GSte

I have been reading a certain amount then trying it out to gain a better understanding, mainly using the semi-auto modes so that I could concentrate on playing with the settings from the section I'd just read.... the manual doesn't explain what things do really, mainly just how to alter the settings using the various buttons/dials, so there isn't anything that mentions it having a light meter/how it works. There is a section on the different metering modes, but it doesn't explain about how light meters work or anything, just in which situations you'd use the different modes. Nothing in the manual is explained anywhere near as clearly or in depth as the replies I've received here do.

I am learning the basics as well as I can from the manual, but the info provided there is very limited and mainly discusses how to alter the various parameters as I say rather than explaining anything in great detail.... sure, I could probably buy a book and learn more that way, but using this board is much faster and has the added bonus that I can ask questions. And it is here to help people after all.

Fair enough, I never actually read the manual properly myself, just skimmed it.

Do you understand the relationship between shutter speed, aperture and iso?
If not, that would be a starting point.

The main modes you would use on a DSLR would be:
M for full manual control (shutter, aperture, iso, flash)
Av for manual aperture control, the camera selects shutter speed
Tv for manual shutter speed control, the camera selects aperture
P for almost full auto, you can still select iso, exposure compensation, metering, flash etc..

iso can be set manually or automatically in all 4 of the modes above.

Metering mode determines how the camera will assess the scene to determine correct exposure.

Spot metering uses a small area right in the middle to determine exposure (your viewfinder may have a circle that marks this area, the 450d does)
Partial metering uses a slightly larger area than spot metering
Center-weighted uses an even larger area but gives the center area more importance.
Evaluative uses the whole scene to determine exposure.

Bobster has posted the illustrations showing how much of the area is used to determine exposure in each mode.


That's basically a crash course on the basics, pretty sure there's a few other things but it's not coming to mind atm.