Programming & Graphics - Potential Career+Hobby?

[j.o.s.h.1408]

*sigh*.

http://forums.hexus.net/programming-...ml#post3045397

So I compare them.

You also don't appear to get what I mean by dead. I am referring to the language. It is going no where.

As for the framework, mobile development is shifting more to platform agnostic. Most firms can not have their vanity app on just Andriod, they need iOS first, because its sexier, then Andriod. Someplace along the way maybe blackberry and windows phone. This is why so many people are using platform agnostic languages. Given iOS/WP are restrictive about what can run, JavaScript and HTML are very popular, however that experience is often 'lacking' so more people are using things like Xarmin.

If you are using Java you can have it pretty much only on Andriod or Blackberry.

So yeah, I can't see why saying learn Java is advantageous. It has no benefit. This is my point. I've said all along there will be jobs.

This isn't about having 50 years experience. It's about actually understanding what you're talking about. If you don't know what a language feature iterator is, what an reactive paradigm is, why GoLang uses message queues. Then why the hell are you discussing it.

What you can say at best is, "there are jobs programming java, I don't know these other languages". That's fine. Not everyone enjoys learning languages, nor am I saying they should. However, they shouldn't be spouting their views without understanding what the comparisons are.

I'm going round in circles with this, the post I linked in this reply explains this as a nice simple summery. Java is a dead end language. So is COBOL, yet there are many COBOL jobs out there. Hell C++ a decade ago was a dead end language.

Think of it this way. Very easy to learn Java after C#. Harder to learn C# after Java because of brain rot. The same way no one in their right mind suggests learning PHP.

It does have benefits. It gives you scope to do server side stuff or mobile front end work which are both still relevant and popular today.

Never did i say anything about Java itself as being the latest and greatest language did i so hop out of your horse and take a chill pill because you are acting very defensive,arrogant and negative.

All i said was that java is a good language to use and learn because it offers a wide range of types of projects and areas you can work on.Never have i said how its core technology is far better then anything else.

Java is just half of the story of a language to use. You also should take into consideration the framework as well. Look at Spring and Android. they have turned your impressions of a so called dead language into something thats been modernised and easy to use and powerful.

Before it was standard J2EE/J2ME, now we have Spring and Android. Both far more powerful, more modern and more easier to use then j2ee/j2me.

[krazy_olie]

£800 a day?

Am I in the wrong sector?

I had someone from Aston Carter "headhunt" me, obviously he just went looking for graduates at decent universities, wasn't really offering much more than here.

[j.o.s.h.1408]

£800 pd for a c# dev in london? Where lol.

edit:

quick search shows two roles that pay over 600

http://www.cwjobs.co.uk/JobSearch/Re...ondon&Radius=5

[TheAnimus]

It does have benefits. It gives you scope to do server side stuff or mobile front end work which are both still relevant and popular today.

Never did i say anything about Java itself as being the latest and greatest language did i so hop out of your horse and take a chill pill because you are acting very defensive,arrogant and negative.

All i said was that java is a good language to use and learn because it offers a wide range of types of projects and areas you can work on.Never have i said how its core technology is far better then anything else.

But why is it good, if there are better things?

The language is dead, the last time a language feature was added I had a single core 350mhz machine, with 128mb or RAM IIRC a 9gb SCSI hdd.

The way we solve problems now is different a mid range smartphone is expected to have 2 if not 4 cores.

If you've got something which has no concepts for taking advantage of these changes, why bother learning it. I would suggest that for 2013 it is a bad choice. Because of the lack of any life in the language.

This is the thing, anyone who can mash the keyboard without breaking it can get a job doing PHP, they will probably earn about double the median average wage within 2 years if they can avoid chewing on the expensive things around the office.

All I said was Java (meaning the language) is dead. I stand by that. No one has come with a reason as to how it isn't, I was expecting people to high light 1.8 features I'd missed. Instead it's all look at all these jobs. But my point is that is irrelevant, any programmer worth their salt should be ready to change language other wise your only tool is a hammer.

[TheAnimus]

£800 pd for a c# dev in london? Where lol.

edit:

quick search shows two roles that pay over 600

http://www.cwjobs.co.uk/JobSearch/Re...ondon&Radius=5

why you looking on cwjobs. I told you the agency in question?

Anyway:

http://www.cwjobs.co.uk/JobSearch/Jo....0&precision=2

first page....... £850 a day, however I think you'd have to do rather well to get that

[malfunction]

Actually as I've said before, the biggest growth in languages for server side stuff is the cool kids are doing with Node,Scala,Go,F#. Just look at the GitHub activities. If you want pure usage then cancers like PHP will win out.

So I am not disputing its used. COBOL is still used. But no one says to learn COBOL. Java is the same. Why is this so offensive to you? We've discussed why its inferior to a modern language.

This is why learning Java is a bad idea. It isn't going to stretch you or teach you modern design ideas. Learning something like Scala makes more sense, but it is still fairly rough round the edges, but I like its typing.

Anyone who is good with C# can get £800 per day right now in London. With Java the best the same agency advertises is £650. Why learn the poorer paying one. This is via Aston Carter if anyone is interested.

So C# earn more, learn more.

Java, it's used on all these old legacy systems and you can be marking digital agency fart apps.

Wow. Compelling isn't it.

Now if Java 1.8 comes out fully baked, with a clear progression in 1.9 in a timely manner, I think I would say it has been revived. Like C++ has.

Wow... I can *currently* get 23% more money in the square mile in an insecure contractor role and I get to use some language features that might make me ever so slightly more efficient at writing code but probably make no difference in terms of a real world project meeting its deliverables...

[TheAnimus]

Wow... I can *currently* get 23% more money in the square mile in an insecure contractor role and I get to use some language features that might make me ever so slightly more efficient at writing code but probably make no difference in terms of a real world project meeting its deliverables...

Ok, now you've lost any respect I had for you.

You don't know what these features are. You don't know how they work. Yet you say it will make no difference in terms of a real world project?

For a major German client, I replaced 10 man years of J2EE with some Rx based system using Irony. In 9 man months. We were then hitting the deliverables that they had failed too. This was onsite to onsite team. I worked closely with the former Java team.

Now some of it could have been done in Java, but most of it would have benefited from a new language beyond just a DSL.

But yeah, sure, lets talk about things that you've no understanding of.

Just in the same way that rolling your own database is going to be a clusterfornication of hurt for the timely delivery of the project (baring some superhuman team member). Some very complex problems, very commonly faced in the finance world are gloriously solved by Rx. But yeah, lets ignore them all!

Why on earth are you commenting about technologies you don't understand.

Also why is that contract role insecure, most I see have no exits for either side below 1 or 6 months.

This isn't a case of lording over on money. I quite a very good contract rate because I couldn't coupe with it and found myself always having an excuse to get pissed, the high money often comes with strings. I wouldn't suggest people go into the city without expecting to be treated like a whore.

This thread is really going no where now. Lets recap.

Java
- Boring language, stuck in the 90s.
- Has jobs. But they don't pay as well.
- Security issues remain a big concern under Oracle.

C#
- Interesting language, stuck in the 00s.
- Tries to be more functional, but its still procedural. It is however actively evolving.
- Has jobs, some pay very well because of the productivity increase.
- Either go slow with Mono or pay a MS license fee for each server.
- Will allow you to easily drop down to Java, with only hating yourself.

[j.o.s.h.1408]

Should i learn c# or scala?

[malfunction]

Patronising... I can happily read up on and understand the features you're talking about, I obviously won't get the finer details without real world experience but you don't need to be a genius to understand the principles.

Exaggerating... The only factor in 10 man years of Java code vs 9 man months of C# / Rx code is the language / platform facilities... I seriously doubt it.

Naive / arrogant... Your own personal experiences in the industry apply across the whole industry and any barriers or alternatives are wrong because they don't fit in with your own experiences?

[TheAnimus]

If you've got good experience in Java, including the framework side and battling the JVM, then Scala. Right now I know (via a friend) a team that is trying to set up with Scala, you don't need to be high level dev to get £700 in Scala because the language is so new. Meanwhile the people who have been doing it on projects I've heard of have been (unsurprisingly) delivering very fast. For a lot of classic back end systems Scala is great.

Add in some good financial maths understanding, or do an MSc in Quantitative Finance like a buddy of mine, you'll get maybe double that. Trading quant developers can often get £1.5k a day. An older timer I used to work with, charges an obscene amount, because it makes people assume he is good (he is average really) but as a result only works 4 months a year. That kind of thing is an edge case, more demonstrating the way prices can get silly in niches, if you can't do a second order pde in your head, it's not going to be you.

A better question would be which would you enjoy and actually want to use, then try to really understand and see where its growing.

[TheAnimus]

Patronising... I can happily read up on and understand the features you're talking about, I obviously won't get the finer details without real world experience but you don't need to be a genius to understand the principles.

You've demonstrated that you don't. Suggesting that technology choices don't effect deliveries is insane. They really do. But to suggest some technologies you've no ideas about don't..... Yeah. Looks convincing.

Exaggerating... The only factor in 10 man years of Java code vs 9 man months of C# / Rx code is the language / platform facilities... I seriously doubt it.

It was a design change, from parts of the system being procedural that really didn't want to be. They had a 5 man team on this for two years, so yeah I'm rounding up a bit, but our replacement shipped 3 months ahead of schedule, with the business specifically stating they where able to out price the market. That is classic for that bank, why they, like most have a higher pay grade for .Net. This is not anecdotal this is common across any of the larger banks which have special interest dev teams rather than just project structured.

Naive / arrogant... Your own personal experiences in the industry apply across the whole industry and any barriers or alternatives are wrong because they don't fit in with your own experiences?

One language reason why Java? Do you really like the exception handling?

Because if we want objective comparisons finance sadly does shift the pay levels as they pay the most generally. The only reason I am mentioning this is in direct response to jobs been mentioned as a motivator for language learning (which personally I do not think should be the major factor to start with).

[malfunction]

Why learn a language that's widely used, proven, cross platform, easy to learn, free in almost all senses of the word, has a nice core syntax (behind the times or otherwise) and has major relevance and industry support, plus loads of well paid jobs?

Yes there's room for improvement, yes many aspects of the core APIs and some aspects of the language could use modernisation, but it's hardly COBOL.

[j.o.s.h.1408]

Why learn a language that's widely used, proven, cross platform, easy to learn, free in almost all senses of the word, has a nice core syntax (behind the times or otherwise) and has major relevance and industry support, plus loads of well paid jobs?

Yes there's room for improvement, yes many aspects of the core APIs and some aspects of the language could use modernisation, but it's hardly COBOL.

Lol well said.

Animus did the founder of java upset you badly in real life? It's clear like night day how you severely hate java!

[mikeo01]

Alright I am a beginner so I can't obviously comment on this stuff.

But clearly the war here is C# vs Java.

What I purely want to know is why would a beginner programmer even consider other language choices?

I have no experience with other languages mentioned, but basically, why?
I understand Scala is compiled to Java byte code.
F# has been influenced by C#, Scala, Python.
Python, well I don't really know.

So I understand these are all higher level languages which are interrupted and basically all fundamentally derived from a lower level language in a sense.

So, from a basic point of view why is one better than the other? Aren't these higher level languages addressing complex lower level language interpretations to make it simpler to code? If the answer is yes, then (if I am understanding correctly) aren't each separate language addressing specific issues? Thus are all incorporating different features for different industries? A.K.A the language is just the tool.


If all these languages are derived from a lower level language then can't we skip "A is better than B" and simply go straight to assembly code if we really want all the features possible?

From what I am understanding each language is addressing a specific area? So fundamentally one's suited to one area than another. Whether this be security, flexibility, straight out rapid deployment, speed or general applications.

Otherwise shouldn't we be all writing in machine code if one higher level language is so bad it shouldn't exist?


This is how I am interrupting this whole argument I am on neither side, I do not have any preference I am simply saying how I see things from a complete basic and beginner point of view.

[DannyM]

I finished Uni about one and a half years back, still working in a supermarket mind.

I did my final year in software development and website development, I never really delved much into either if I'm honest but got a good basic understanding of each. We originally started with Java and then went onto C# but as part of a module we had to convert Java to C# and I can honestly say it had a lot of folk stumped for a bit. Whether that was the aim or a case of Java to C# is harder then C# to Java I don't know.

But like you I've looked into programming again recently and I've picked up doing a Java app for android. Any programming experience is better than none but I would make sure you focus on a field now and put all your effort into that field.

My mistake was not knowing what I wanted to do all the way through Uni and well here I am now looking for IT support roles to no avail. I'd really lock your head into something now, and own it. But at the same time you have got to have some satisfaction from it and enjoyment.

Also, any work you do, polish it off and place it in your portfolio, I'm currently trying to build mine with the dribs and drabs I can find from my Uni work. it looks good on any job application or CV.

The best of luck to you.

[mikeo01]

Thank you for your input Your advice "I'd really lock your head into something now, and own it" really makes a lot of sense. As I too did not know what I wanted to do; until about a month ago.

I definitely want to have that satisfaction and I found programming fulfils that. My initial worry was what this thread is about; going down the wrong road of learning a certain language as there are so many.