Programming & Graphics - Potential Career+Hobby?

[j.o.s.h.1408]

Thank you for your input Your advice "I'd really lock your head into something now, and own it" really makes a lot of sense. As I too did not know what I wanted to do; until about a month ago.

I definitely want to have that satisfaction and I found programming fulfils that. My initial worry was what this thread is about; going down the wrong road of learning a certain language as there are so many.

That is why i argued my case about Java.

Seriously though just pick one of the popular well known OOP languages and you will be fine.

Go for Java if you want to do Mobile front end and back end work though as i do not have to tell you how damm popular Android is at the moment

[TheAnimus]

Why learn a language that's widely used, proven, cross platform, easy to learn, free in almost all senses of the word, has a nice core syntax (behind the times or otherwise) and has major relevance and industry support, plus loads of well paid jobs?

Yes there's room for improvement, yes many aspects of the core APIs and some aspects of the language could use modernisation, but it's hardly COBOL.

because there are better ones!

Better language feature in every regard.

Better paid.

Better Direction (Java as a language is dead, it's deceased, its pushing up the daisies, it isn't pining for the effing fjords)

Is more open (ECMA standard and Mono is more open than any JRE).

Why Learn Java? Not one of the aspects you gave is java the best at.

[TheAnimus]

Thank you for your input Your advice "I'd really lock your head into something now, and own it" really makes a lot of sense. As I too did not know what I wanted to do; until about a month ago.

I definitely want to have that satisfaction and I found programming fulfils that. My initial worry was what this thread is about; going down the wrong road of learning a certain language as there are so many.

Exactly.

Given that when I was a lad, we had one CPU and we were damn grateful for it was the de facto standard for languages a lot is changing now.

Without getting too technical, when making a middle tier service, like a website, we can now afford the cost of maintaining a session state for each user. This is often a thread. But in todays world its normally about interacting with lots of different components. The old model, something like:

GetUserInput
CalculateResultOfInput
GetSomeDataFromDatabase
MixWithCalcaulatedResult
DisplayResult

Doesn't really work, because often the GetSomeData is getting many bits of data, from many sources.

So more people are using languages that are along then lines of

WhenEverThereIsUserInput -> DoSomeCalculation

WheneverThereIsCalalationReady -> GetThisBitOfData
WheneverThereIsCalalationReady -> GetThatBitOfData


MixedCalulationResult = Latest(GetThatBitOfDataResult, ... *)

DisplayResult = MixedCalculationResult

The result is that you don't ever have 'wait' events, you are saving any kind of kernel (or funky usermode implementations from threadpools).

The thing is the code is generally more maintainable too, inherently easier to unit test, has good IoC paradigms available as language features etc.

This is why I'd say for someone looking to do programming now, a practical functional language is essential. At the moment there are a few that are the most practical, or rather stand out as being, Scala, F#, Golang. Maybe Erlang too.

However, the great thing about learning something like C#, is you are already one step there, not to mention how well it plays with F#.

[TheAnimus]

F# has been influenced by C#, Scala, Python.

Mostly it was OCamel, which is nice, because that language itself never really was 'practical' for use in industry.

So, from a basic point of view why is one better than the other? Aren't these higher level languages addressing complex lower level language interpretations to make it simpler to code? If the answer is yes, then (if I am understanding correctly) aren't each separate language addressing specific issues? Thus are all incorporating different features for different industries? A.K.A the language is just the tool.

Tell me where is fancy bred, Or in the heart or in the head? How begot, how nourished?

Shakespeare aside, what is the point of a programming language? To allow you to express a problem. The language itself will shape your solution.

In the case of a yield pattern, as Java doesn't offer one, no one really does it as a matter of course. This means that APIs lack simple control over them by their caller.

If we use the tool analogy, if your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. There are times when you want a hammer, but often, you want a screwdriver instead. Having only had exposure to a hammer frequently makes developers hammer in that screw instead.

Take dynamic programming, for instance ExpandoObject in .Net exposed as a first class citizen in C# is similar to Expando in Groovy. So you can sort of, kind of use it in Java. However you can't use it naturally, for the purpose its designed for in Groovy. The language doesn't support it. So you have no thought, you can't think properly about designing something that uses it. Queue the people who've never used this design pattern saying "i'm all right with my hammer, I can solve every problem just fine" Well you know what? They are right, you can hammer screws just fine, it takes a bit longer, you might split some wood, but I think we've all done it.

So then you get on to really useful things, like Async / Await or Rx. Not possible in Java today.

This is why for learning, it doesn't make sense to learn Java If you've learnt Java you will struggle to learn all the concepts found in C#. If you learn C# you already know Java, it is much easier to remember that you've only got a hammer, rather than learning all the tools in your toolbox. Easier, but frustrating, because once you've had something better, going back hurts.

There are better languages out there. If you want to be fully modern, yes, learn Scala or Golang or F# or some other 'modernish' language.

I can't see why people are rushing to say "OMFG someone said java is dead" it bloody well is. It's a dead language. C++ was for the last decade. Eventually it got it's act together and the new spec isn't half bad.

Until Java gets its act together, why the hell bother with it. The only replies people keep saying is I've got a job in it, and I don't know any other languages. Have a think about that? Sure your life is great, not saying that everyone who knows Java lives on a council estate only able to eat baked beans. This isn't about that. It is simply an un-equivocal fact that Java as a language is very old, it's development is dead, it has no benefit for learning it over something like C#.

[malfunction]

because there are better ones!

Better language feature in every regard.

Better paid.

Better Direction (Java as a language is dead, it's deceased, its pushing up the daisies, it isn't pining for the effing fjords)

Is more open (ECMA standard and Mono is more open than any JRE).

Why Learn Java? Not one of the aspects you gave is java the best at.

The fact that Java lacks some features does not make Java obsolete.

Even if everyone in the whole world accepted that C# is (at least currently) a better language that does not make Java obsolete.

Actual support and usage - or a lack of - is what will make it obsolete, or not and my bet is on "not", particularly as within the 5-year time frame you have been talking about (within the next 6 months or so in fact) JDK 8 should be out with it's own take on most of the features you say a language needs in order to be worthwhile. Yes it's a shame Java hasn't done at least some of this earlier, and I really hope Oracle deliver as promised and continue to invest in the language / platform but there's no real reason to doubt that Java will soon replicate most of the advantages C# has (yes the implementations will differ in some regards - for better or worse Java tries not to break backwards compatibility).

Shockingly enough there are reasons above and beyond your criteria that determine which technologies are used and selected.

This isn't to say the right choice is always made or that a green field implementation in another technology couldn't be 'better' - whatever that measure of better is (architecturally cleaner, faster, easier to maintain, cheaper, keeps The Animus from ranting and having a heart attack...). You yourself said that while your Java replacing C# code for the German bank was better, a domain specific language (or perhaps an entirely functional language?) might have delivered an even better solution, so there must have been reasons, beyond simple technical advantages, that made you stick with C#.

Also - if everyone dumped Java and started using C# you would kiss your supposed salary advantage goodbye - to imply that it's because of the better skillset a C# developer has is naive; it's simply supply and demand. You don't have to be a super genius because to grasp the concept of a procedural language that also supports some functional aspects, hell - I can write SQL and embed it in my code; I know it's not exactly the same thing - and definitely isn't part of the language itself, which is a significant drawback in comparison - but you're hardly unique in being able to get your head around both. Similarly it's not exactly hard to grasp and run with a better threading model, yet you seem to think someone who's mainly (or even only) a Java developer can only think of one way of doing it.

I don't have C# experience but I've used many different languages over the years, even some COBOL - and you know what, that COBOL (COBOL, CICS and DB2) system was one of the cleanest and easiest systems I've ever worked on - well designed, highly modular, lots of code templates to reduce the overhead or what is typically a very verbose language, etc. That doesn't make COBOL better than anything else; it just means that the people that created the system had a clear idea of what they needed and how to implement it using the tools they had at hand, and that they created processes / expended effort on best practice to ensure that the system continued to be robust, easy to support and easy to work on. And no, I wouldn't choose COBOL in any 'normal' project today - but if I was back working in a mainframe dominated environment with a large pool of legacy code that works and was relatively easy to support, I'd be a fool to discount it simply because COBOL isn't sexy or changing. The real business is likely to care how well something works and what it costs to get there and maintain it - nothing more or less than that.

[malfunction]

In the case of a yield pattern, as Java doesn't offer one, no one really does it as a matter of course. This means that APIs lack simple control over them by their caller.

So because Java doesn't have yield no equivalent functionality can ever be created? No one can write asynchronous / event driven code? No one uses shared objects (queues, pools, whatever) to perform equivalent functions? (or just a bloody loop with break points!)

[TheAnimus]

If you see my reply to Josh's question about if its a good idea to learn Scala, I mention that going by just market rates isn't really a good idea for education. Ultimately it just makes you a whore. Not that there is anything wrong with it, it just isn't for everyone.

I only mentioned them in context of the whole "you should learn Java, lots of jobs in Java". I don't think that is a good argument for learning a language. Unless we just want to rip on PHP. Any argument can be used to rip on PHP.

The problem is the 1.8 features will let Java get to where C# was in 2004. C# hasn't stood still. Let's just take expressions of Lambda kind:
http://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutori...pressions.html
That isn't going to take it to where C# was in 2008. It doesn't have the ability to make an expression tree of Lambdas. You can't write out a functional tree in your procedural code an optimise it. With compiler language features. This is really important feature to be missing.

Also last I looked the lambdas weren't even in the RC.

This is my point. These features are in my not so humble opinion, something every new developer today should be learning and thinking about. I will happily argue the merits for this if you wish.

The problem is the language leads people to restrict their possibilities. In the way that PHP is a crime against braincells, Java isn't going to help you develop these patterns.

It normally takes a couple of years for an average Java dev to turn in to an average C# dev. Yet turning an average C# dev into an average Java dev is a case of months, and a few swears about templates masquerading as generics.

I'd also suggest that the pay advantage thing isn't due just to limited supply, it is also due to productivity. I know I can make most systems faster in C# than I could Java. The exception being ones where I need a lot more control over the GC. The .Net GC is a lot 'smarter' in that you don't configure it much up front, but it has taken to this year to get forced compacting on the large object heap! Ergh, an allocator pattern for anything over 85k. I do not think .Net is some thing of perfection. C# has some annoying legacy things in the language too.

But I will say again, I can not see the reason to learn Java. There is something that is better right? It has these better language features. You will be a better developer by learning it.

The same way the BCS forces a functional language be taught for accreditation. Most students (myself included) at the time were going ergh, whats the point, its so slow, no one will ever use this for anything. Ultimately they are right, but it does help the brain form new ways of solving problems.

This isn't about discounting Java. This isn't like PHP where I am saying everyone involved should be shot, their children shot, and any contaminated hardware burned. This is simply for learning a language, Java is not a good choice. It hasn't had any 'love' put in to its language for pretty much a decade. Even then that update was piss poor. Now as I said with C++ it changed from being a dead language to getting some good features. Maybe rather than dead, how about we compromise, it's comatose?

So to recap. This is about learning a language. Learning Java won't teach you as much as learning C# will. There isn't a lack of opportunities for work in any language (well except BrainFck or CommonLisp). So the criteria should really be on what gives a better education. Given that Java hasn't evolved, is very clunky interacting with other languages (Groovy/Scala interoperability is a pain), I would strongly advise against learning it first.

I also have said again and again that learning many languages is a good thing. I don't think it's a good idea to only learn one. But as a first language to learn to commercial ready fluency it really is a no brainer, there is no objective reason why you would choose Java, it falls short. C# is a great mixed language.

[TheAnimus]

So because Java doesn't have yield no equivalent functionality can ever be created? No one can write asynchronous / event driven code? No one uses shared objects (queues, pools, whatever) to perform equivalent functions? (or just a bloody loop with break points!)

I draw your attention to "as a matter of course"

To compare a compiler made state machine with a bloody loop with break points is missing the point. You've elegantly, simply and standardly taken the execution control to the caller as normal.

It isn't a case of you can or you can't. It is the simple fact that people don't.

Otherwise if these features weren't needed, why on earth did C++ add them? Why are Java lang team adding a very piss poor version of them? (History repeating itself, see templates vs generics).

[mikeo01]

Well from my original post I have made my mind up about C++, especially learning the new features in the C++11 standard. Simply put I believe I will learn a lot more about programming that is necessary to understand some concepts in other languages. I think as a beginner its a great place to start if you want to know the ins and outs.

I will learn C# shortly after. However just to clear things up about it really, a few points, why would you say PHP is bad to learn? Just curious not biased, I do already know a bit of PHP but not from an in-depth technical point of view. I understand there's security flaws and the flexibility of the language is somewhat poor, but curious why you say it's so bad?

Not defending it just would rather be up to date with things

[j.o.s.h.1408]

because there are better ones!

Better language feature in every regard.

Better paid.

Better Direction (Java as a language is dead, it's deceased, its pushing up the daisies, it isn't pining for the effing fjords)

Is more open (ECMA standard and Mono is more open than any JRE).

Why Learn Java? Not one of the aspects you gave is java the best at.

At the end of the day we need to put food in our table and Java does it and does it with lots of spare cash too.

There is no point learning a language that may be technically better then java in every single way when there is hardly any jobs for it because at the end of the day, we do this so we can earn a living doing something that we enjoy doing in the first place.

Learning Java opens up a lot of possibilities and stability in your Job/career. That is why it is a great language/platform to learn.

Whilst learning and working in java, does it stop you from learning a bit on scala? c#? no it doesn't. You can still learn these so called languages that puts java to shame. Nothing wrong with that but if you spend 2 years learning language A and then after learning it, cant find a job because of the market, then what? What will you do now. Now you will revert back to learning php/java so you can at least get a job taht puts food on your table.

I started learning Android right from the beginning and tried to find jobs for Android and it was pretty much impossible. i looked for over a year or two and nearly gave up and started learning java server side work as there was jobs for that field.

Ironicaly when i did leave the company i was in whilst looking for android work, i moved to a java server side project. Go figure eh. It is not android, but it pays the bills and it is a well known framework/language so finding a job at that field was easier then finding one for android.

Fast forward around 6months later bam i finally found a android role and stayed there for 2 years.

At that time android grew and now i can safely say that i can find a android role in a matter of days if want to. Now i am a contract Android developer.

I am still getting calls for new android roles.

Motto of the story? dont place all your cards in a language that is not as popular and used in the market and focus first on something that is popular to begin with whilst learning that language that is not popular because it can grow.

The likes of Scala can grow taking over Spring/j2ee but until that time comes, your best is to stick with Java or whatever popular language so it can help pay the bills.

End of the day as i said, We dont learn and program for fun. Most of us do it to pay the bills.

[TheAnimus]

Ooooooh a rant on PHP. Seriously, alcohol and ranting about PHP are my vices.

A lot of problems happen in programming when someone spends too much time in just one language. We kind of need people like that to be really expert in something, but often they get really stupid. PHP I think was created by people who only knew one language, and that language very badly. It is in consistent, insecure by design. It can't make its mind up how it is to do something.

But then you get something like Objects. People like Objects, they allow you to frame your thought quite well in discrete blocks. You drag out the relationships between them. Inherit bits, change bits. PHP still hasn't got proper objects..... I can't fathom why they put such a broken implementation in there.

http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09...of-bad-design/

Says its really quite well.

I consider it brain cancer because it actually touches on good ideas, but very poorly.

For example you don't need object orientated programming, you can do it all in one giant void Main () { } just fine! I mean its hideously ugly, probably takes longer to write, and often performance improvements will get missed. But you can do it.

So PHP monkeys have this idea that they know what these language features are, they think they know what structured exception handling is, and decide its not worth it, because their language doesn't do it right.

It encourages really, really bad things, the classic being magic quotes.
"SELECT * FROM tblUsers WHERE Password='$Password' AND UserName='$User'";
It actually encouraged people to just slam stuff into a SQL query. It made developers never consider that its a security boundary. They would look at people using say parameterised queries and say "well that's stupid and verbose".

Languages shape thought. If something is easy, you do it. If something is harder and you've a substitute, you take the inferior option. It's human nature

[TheAnimus]

End of the day as i said, We dont learn and program for fun. Most of us do it to pay the bills.

I don't understand where you are coming from. I have not ever said, nor would I today, that you won't find a job with Java.

I would say its easy to find a job for Java. It is easy to find a job for PHP, it is easy to find a job for C#.......

So it doesn't matter for that which you do.

I mentioned, in direct response, that if your goal is to earn as much money as possible, that C# pays more than Java. This is from someone that will happily consult in either. People don't want to pay me for Java because I am too expensive, yet they will happily pay me for .Net or Mono.

You only do Java. Fair enough. This isn't say lomfg you suck!11"! Not at all. Just that someone asking what language they should learn, that they shouldn't bother with Java.

I've explained the reason for it.

I've also explained that it is easier to go from C# to Java, than it is from Java to C#. I hope I've illustrated why.

Why are you saying it is better to learn Java? I just can't comprehend. By your own searches for jobs you see it pays less. I've explained the language features it lacks. Why would you do it.

Just because someone says don't learn the technology you are using, doesn't make the technology you are using bad, just not as good. I am in no way saying there won't be jobs around in 5 years time for it either. I am in no way criticising your life. I've also said that whilst there are some really good, publically advertised (the best roles tend never to be) jobs in .Net that pay much better than the corresponding Java ones, I would caution people about going near that industry at all. At the end of the day earning £100k vs £120k isn't life changing after tax at all.

So come on, stop being so silly. This is advice for someone who is wanting to learn a good language with a commercial angle. Having a proper understanding of the new C++ is a great start. Learning about managed languages in C# is another brilliant step. Taking something like F# or Scala or Golang is another great step. Taking Java wouldn't help half as much. That is the point.

[j.o.s.h.1408]

well when i have time i plan to learn C# or Scala as i do want to know more then just Java

[mikeo01]

Brilliant, kind of sums up the issues present in PHP that are ignored. The issues presented in PHP were not even outlined in my course; dull code that could compromise a back end database was talked about the most. Now I see how all over the place PHP actually is

Also just want to mention something, I am not looking towards "money" as an end goal. I want to aim for something I enjoy and one that'll open up certain paths. For example I am interested in mainly system programming, whether this be working close to bare metal, developing applications for end users or my personal side hobby which is game development. I want to choose a language that is flexible and that isn't a dead end for me.

The same reason why I wouldn't go out trying to master HTML, CSS, JavaScript, because personally it wouldn't really get me anywhere; as they are better suited for a different industry.


Also, I am not trying to say ones right and ones wrong here, I am building up a picture to get a better grasp of languages and their uses as a whole.
So I am grateful for all the input as it's helping me get a better understanding

[j.o.s.h.1408]

Java is far from a crap Language like PHP!

[TheAnimus]

No one is saying Java is like PHP. PHP is going to be my example for why we can't have democracy, so many people choose to use it..... this is why we can't have nice things.

But my example of how PHP promotes a bad habbit, by having say Magic Quotes Runtime (see my above SQL injection example) is actually mildly analogous to my comments on Java.

Sure you can write PHP differently, you aren't forced to write it so that it has SQL injection vulnerabilities. But it doesn't shape the mind to do so.

The same, it has to be said, is true of Java. Yes you can write your own state machine rather than have a yield keyword, but its much harder, and you won't bother. Yes you can use an eventing system to emulate (with massive performance hits) the use of the async keyword in C#. But you won't.

This is kind of the point about a teaching language. If I needed to I could merrily produce PHP code (I refuse to acknowledge it can be programmed, it can only be smeared like poop). Because I have been educated by other languages I would probably produce better code, than if I had never used anything but PHP.

The fact of the matter for 'system programming' that often means C++, getting close to the metal. Heck I wouldn't be surprised if after learning the new fancy C++ OP decides that GoLang offers a better, close to the metal, quasi managed language environment, and never looks at Java, Scala, C# or any of the others! However his side hobby, of games development, I think its hard to find a better framework than unity3d for casual games development, it runs everywhere! If your wanting to make user applications, then again well, you know what the answer is.

This isn't a case of saying that Java is bad, I don't think of Java as remotely close to PHP in terms of badness. It is simply a case of Java is not as good as a language as C#. I can't see why this is such a controversial thing to say. It used not to be the case, C# 1 was very primitive, and Java was much better, but by 2004 the tables had turned, C#2 was much better than Java, and Java language development kinda died.

If you notice I've not said Java is useless, just not as good. We've been sidetracked off into a "well it works just fine here mate" to a "but what about jobs and money" to a "well language features I've never used and design paradigms I've not learned obviously aren't needed". These are terrible attitudes to have.

For instance I frequently bang on about how I haven't seen a good actor paradigm outside of Erlang. You might think me a C# fanboy, but I really hate how hard it is by comparison. Or DuckTyping. God that is so damned useful, yet the implementations in .Net are always poor mans barstardisations in C#. I want duck typing DALs and it holds my development back that I have to use proxy generation to achieve this.

Personally I think the better the programmer, the broader their experience, the more they realise how their tools suck.

Spend a little bit of time playing with some of the newer language features in C#, use the mix of DLR and traditional code, play around with Async/Await or Rx. Look at the fun you can have with static reflection (C# Expressions, part of the underlying lambda fucntionality). Then say that these are things not worth learning as you learn your first managed language. They are not hard concepts to understand, only hard if you have predispositions to code.

I have zero need to know any Scala, but I've done a little bit just to see what the fuss is about, and frankly, I like it. There is nothing at all exciting in Java's pipeline. That is a very sad fact, even more for me personally because Java is the reason I can never happily write C++. The way C# is the reason I can never happily write Java.

I can't wait for the language that will make me never happily write C#.