Programming & Graphics - Potential Career+Hobby?

[mikeo01]

Hi all,

Looking for someone with some graphics and programming experience to give me some insight into how difficult or rewarding this area may be.

I am going into my final year of university doing networking and to tell the truth I had doubts and moved onto a more programming based project. I am beginning to get more interested in programming but also been inspired by some individual/group based designed games that have shown great 3D graphical design.

This has lead me to be interested in game development as a hobby after I finish university. Not only as a hobby but to hopefully one day start designing a game of my own.


So my question is this: How difficult and rewarding is this area of work? Not to necessarily work for the big guys but for general programming/computing careers? Is it worth my time?

What type of software is required for designing graphics?


I have decided on a network analyst tool for my year 3 which will be written in C++, because I feel is widely used. But I am also thinking it may be a good direction to take if I am to move onto game development later on?


Taking on a programming project will be difficult, especially if I will be looking at other areas. But if I do take on this challenge out of complete personal interest will this aid towards getting a job in one of these areas later on? Or if there are any other jobs that'll open up from this?


Thanks for any input

[Agent]

You'll have a lot of catching up to do compared to people graduating - keep that in mind.

The days in the games industry are often long as there are some truly horrendous companies, but there are also some awesome ones out there.
Fire me a PM with a Skype name or something - I work with some big games companies at the moment and am happy to chat to you about the finer details if you like.

[mikeo01]

I understand I will be behind, but I am hoping to develop my skills through short courses to at least obtain certificates then eventually start designing a game from scratch as a hobby. I know to even get looked at I will need a completed game project to show for it.

Also thank you, that's very kind. Unfortunately I don't have Skype nor anything for video chat. But I am just wondering the short of learning curve I am to expect; especially in graphics design? I have never looked into modelling nor looked into any graphics API.


My end goal is to at least be somewhat skillful in programming to open up some doors

[TheAnimus]

Generally speaking you will earn a lot more as a programmer outside the 'big games' firms community.

[finlay666]

That's true, unless it's with one of the ones owned by a larger company, payscales at Lionhead/Rare were better than most others (and in line with MS employee pay) due to them being MS owned.

I did computer game software engineering at uni as some form of reference, placement in a non games programming position and after that I couldn't get away from the industry quickly enough. Of my fellow graduates from my year one works for CCP (Eve online), one is currently working on Watch Dogs (Ubi). The rest either failed to get a position in the industry (the vast majority) or work for smaller local companies

To answer the questions you have....

This has lead me to be interested in game development as a hobby after I finish university. Not only as a hobby but to hopefully one day start designing a game of my own.

As a hobby I'd say it's better, if you look at saomething like the game Gunpoint. This was a guy who started out from scratch to make it using a 3rd party tool. The art style fits excellently and the writing and gameplay are very good. IIRC he had no programming experience prior to starting

So my question is this: How difficult and rewarding is this area of work? Not to necessarily work for the big guys but for general programming/computing careers? Is it worth my time?

It has to be something you really enjoy, depending on the project it can be either really tedious (boiler plate programming) or really complex and challenging (I'm currently working on programmatic MDX queries for a BI system currently) but it's nice (especially with projects at home) to mix the 2 up to keep it fresh.

I know guys where I used to work that did the 9-5 thing then went home, they didn't get very far. The ones that did read up on technology available and did things in their spare time as hobby devs.

What type of software is required for designing graphics?

3D graphics:
Maya or 3D Studio Max usually. You can get Lightwave which IIRC is free but you need to convert it first.

2D graphics (like textures)
Photoshop usually, I think you can use Gimp or Paint.Net also

I have decided on a network analyst tool for my year 3 which will be written in C++, because I feel is widely used. But I am also thinking it may be a good direction to take if I am to move onto game development later on?

C++ is a good language to have in general. I did my entire course in it but rarely use it today in favour of C#. It's good to learn things that you wouldn't learn with C#/Java like memory management, GC and pointers

Taking on a programming project will be difficult, especially if I will be looking at other areas. But if I do take on this challenge out of complete personal interest will this aid towards getting a job in one of these areas later on? Or if there are any other jobs that'll open up from this?

I don't think it would in the games industry. The industry is incredibly competitive for what I see as a poor job, with stupidly long hours (and I work for a digital agency), poor conditions and a lot of stress.

That isn't to say you couldn't do it however. A mobile app store licence is at most $100 (google is $25 and MS is $19) so the barrier for a hobby developer is incredibly low and if you wanted to do stuff on the pc you could for free.

A software development job can be incredibly rewarding however if it's in an industry you like.

I am hoping to develop my skills through short courses to at least obtain certificates then eventually start designing a game from scratch as a hobby.

I wouldn't bother with the certificates. Applied knowledge is far better than theoretical and the only reason I look at them is because of company partner status.

I know to even get looked at I will need a completed game project to show for it.

A portfolio is needed (games and art if you decide to go that way). Completed games aren't. You can have a variety of small tech demos if you wanted but as single level games rather than full completed games.

IBut I am just wondering the short of learning curve I am to expect; especially in graphics design? I have never looked into modelling nor looked into any graphics API.

You can get to a reasonable level in about a couple of months. I should have some of the tutorials somewhere for it. I made this 3d render for my final year, took about a week to do in the end including the actual render, editing and audio (I know it's comically bad but it got in the top scale of marks for the features it used with things like adding skeletal structures and line modelling) http://youtu.be/kpHIvabPcRE

[mikeo01]

Thank you for the write up. Games industry doesn't sound like a lot of fun now

I would be developing games for the PC as a home project. But the problem I am thinking of is getting such a project noticed or heard. Obviously I would like to make some money for it (provided it's decent ) so I wouldn't want it to go to waste. The digital market seems better suited for people like me wanting to go forth and develop their own ideas.

I was going to start learning Java but I decided that it may not be as widely used. And as you pointed out I will learn other things. Plus I'm used to C++.


Could I make any sort of extra money just from a hobby? Getting it out there for people to actually use? Or I am being too ambitious? I would love to go in the direction of a programming career as I can use it for both personal projects.


Also I can't view the video it's private but as for graphics what does the process actually include?
I assume you develop the model and render it using Maya or 3D max? Where does Direct3D or OpenGL come in? I've never actually looked at animation with model or the sort so I am completely new to that.

EDIT: I forgot to mention an important thing about what I am actually interested in developing. I have been inspired by games focused around graphics and story, rather than traditional games. So at the moment I am very interested in creating stunning game art with a strong story driven element, rather than gameplay focus.

[finlay666]

Could I make any sort of extra money just from a hobby? Getting it out there for people to actually use? Or I am being too ambitious? I would love to go in the direction of a programming career as I can use it for both personal projects.

For me my hobby stuff isn't to make money, it's for enjoyment. So anything I've made has either been totally free or ad supported to help pay for the maintenance/server time. It's not like you would really expect to charge straight away either, but things like Steam are there to help indie devs which you would be.

Also I can't view the video it's private but as for graphics what does the process actually include?

I assume you develop the model and render it using Maya or 3D max? Where does Direct3D or OpenGL come in? I've never actually looked at animation with model or the sort so I am completely new to that.

Oops, made it unlisted so the link should work. Work was essentially making a cut down 3d skeletal wireframe in Lightwave (uni software and it was free to use at the time) for the fish, dealing with lighting, shadows, camera settings etc. The 3D modelling software makes the model that you would use, in this case for my render it had the skin applied to it.

D3D/OpenGL are used as ways to display the content on the screen, unless you are working close to the metal with C++ you probably won't go near it. You would still need some form of 3d rendering engine inbetween. We used XNA for our group project (a 3d platform game loosely based around Mario 64 with a few missions: collect x of item y, reach a point and something else) and we made the models for that in both lightwave and 3ds max (one of the people on my course was a full times games programmer completing their degree part time so made their models out of hours at work). Then we processed them using Collada (IIRC it's a Sony lib), applied the skins then rendered them into the game with jiglib as a physics model, using XNA means we would have used an abstracted D3D

Thanks for reminding me, I've just looked and found the full source code that we used might look and see how polished it is and maybe tidy it up as a demo on hand

EDIT: I forgot to mention an important thing about what I am actually interested in developing. I have been inspired by games focused around graphics and story, rather than traditional games. So at the moment I am very interested in creating stunning game art with a strong story driven element, rather than gameplay focus.

Then it'll need to be incredibly good, there was a game that was tried to be kickstartered from a local team of creatives who were ex ubisoft and a few other places and it didn't make it (possibly because AFAIK they are all creative and had no one to actually do the dev apart from a 2-bit mobile studio that couldn't do much ) http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...the-realm-game

The group shot is the building I was in in my old job

Are you more interested in the visual aspect or the programming side? If you are more interested in the visual aspect (which I suspect from focussing on things other than gameplay) I'd look at off the shelf components you can use. Things like Unity (the v3 version was free for a while when v4 came out so I nabbed that as it included iOS and Android licences too) and Game maker studio (you probably recognise a few of the games http://www.yoyogames.com/showcase) let you focuse more on the game and art than the code (game maker studio especially)

[mikeo01]

I would be developing game ideas purely for fun and definitely wouldn't start asking for money straight away but in time I would love to get it on Steam. Not just for some extra cash but for a sense of achievement that people would actually buy it.

I've seen some great indie games on Steam and would love to be a part of it.
This will take time but it sounds worth it if I get good at it that is.


Took a look at your video, I can see some features you used. I know I am completely new with all this but does it really matter what software is used for the rendering?
My main focus is programming and rendering in 3D. As such I will be looking at light, shaders, reflection and all the eye candy.


My aim is in fact to firstly produce a photo-realistic environment. So basically a map of the terrain. So i'd want to take into account all the natural elements such as shadows, rain, wind.


Onto that game you linked up; ex-Ubisoft? That'll put me to shame when I start my project eventually I wouldn't be asking for any sorts of funds as it's on PC platform, and also I would want to take on the programming and visual sides of things from scratch.
P.S Pretty cool you used to work in the same building


Problem I am thinking of with Game Studio Maker is it's their own code and I am more worried being confused if I eventually want to look into the native C++/DirectX code.
I was a bit worried about looking towards 3rd party tools mainly because I am learning a designed piece of software rather than the gritty stuff. I know it may be learning the hard way but I thought it may give me more flexibility?


For example the game I was inspired by is called Miasmata, and also looking into Dear Esther. The focus of these was graphics and story telling. That's what got me started. Simplistic but powerful.
Although I am interested in both visual and programming.

By the end of next year I should be decent in programming as I am going to have to learn the ins and outs.


I know my idea may be on a pretty big scale but over time I hope to accomplish it so it becomes the norm. Audio is going to be a problem however.

[finlay666]

Took a look at your video, I can see some features you used. I know I am completely new with all this but does it really matter what software is used for the rendering?

Not really for a dev starting out, different engines have different strengths/weaknesses but most will do the same job even if it's slightly differently, for generating the models some have differing features and ways of doing things but you can usually get the same end effect, think Photoshop vs Gimp. Most of the core functionality is the same but done differently

Problem I am thinking of with Game Studio Maker is it's their own code and I am more worried being confused if I eventually want to look into the native C++/DirectX code.
I was a bit worried about looking towards 3rd party tools mainly because I am learning a designed piece of software rather than the gritty stuff. I know it may be learning the hard way but I thought it may give me more flexibility?

It does, but one of the things the guy that made Gunpoint found was that he needed to write more and I think he did that using C++, have a check on the blog as you can add your own components to it.

Audio is going to be a problem however.

How so? in terms of getting the samples or handling 3d audio? It's a lot simpler than it seems but it's a case of tweaking it to get it right

[mikeo01]

Edit:
Ah right. I had a look at LightWave 3D and it appears to be quite pricey.
Found free software called Blender.

For textures what features does Photoshop have over say basic Paint?

As for the audio mainly getting samples.

Thank you for your help much appreciated.

Edit:
Took a look at Game Maker Studio. I think I'd actually feel more comfortable coding from the ground up ;-)

[finlay666]

Blender will do, it's one of the common alternatives

You can't save usual texture files in Paint. Lack of transpacency and no support for layers make it very difficult to work with. Gimp/Paint.Net offer these without the price tag of PS

[TheAnimus]

It's great that you have enthusiasm for this carrier path. But have you considered looking at programming outside of games industry?

I only mention because everyone I know from uni (almost a decade ago now) who went in to the games industry, bar one, regrets it immensely. I mean we aren't talking about not having a house or a flash car due to the bad money, but the hours have taken incredible tolls on relationships too.

The fact is you aren't far on that path now. Have you really thought about where it leads? Have a look on job websites. The pay differential is huge, and anacodately, a lot of games devs are treated badly in terms of hours.

[mikeo01]

Blender will do, it's one of the common alternatives

You can't save usual texture files in Paint. Lack of transpacency and no support for layers make it very difficult to work with. Gimp/Paint.Net offer these without the price tag of PS

Thanks I will start having a go with the tools mentioned. I'll also give Unity a go.

It's great that you have enthusiasm for this carrier path. But have you considered looking at programming outside of games industry?

I only mention because everyone I know from uni (almost a decade ago now) who went in to the games industry, bar one, regrets it immensely. I mean we aren't talking about not having a house or a flash car due to the bad money, but the hours have taken incredible tolls on relationships too.

The fact is you aren't far on that path now. Have you really thought about where it leads? Have a look on job websites. The pay differential is huge, and anacodately, a lot of games devs are treated badly in terms of hours.

Thanks, it's good to know some truth in what happens after university life.

I have considered programming and truth be told that's now the path I am going down. I considered games development as a hobby initially but my mind wandered a bit but as mentioned the work hours and barriers seem to impede creativity and freedom to develop. That's why I hope to develop games in my spare time.

There doesn't seem to be many jobs with games in mind; however even around my area there seems to be a few programming or even web/server developer jobs. I enjoy coding as a whole, but definitely want to start learning other languages so it gives me all round experience in different areas.

[TheAnimus]

There is a different industry, the 'digital media agency' type. It used to be just people nocking up a flash animation and a website. So the quality of the developers is often abysmal. Lots of people who use PHP there.

However now adays a brand often involves making smartphone apps, sometimes little 5 min puzzles or games. The pressure is generally less the smaller the project. No one turns round and says "we've invested £10 million in this system it must be made to work" and force you to dig yourself out of the hole. Pay isn't as good as you get in bespoke technical industries (ie finance or aviation) but stress is less.

Something like that which you are making things inherently visual might be worth considering?

[mikeo01]

Hmm interesting, thanks for the suggestion; some sort of software development may be worth considering. I may have to look around as I do like the thought of implementing with a visual aspect to it.

I will be delving into the world of C++ soon; I will see how much I enjoy it.

Are there any other languages that may be worth looking at which may benefit me in the future?

[finlay666]

From C++, C# is a nice easy transition and there is plenty that use it cross platform with XNA and Mono (including iOS and Android) for games, Python is a useful one to know as well with it's use in script based games. Other than that I'm sure someone will say to learn Java