Should people who Sign-on...

[Russ]

have privaliges removed.

We were talking about this today, and im sure you all know, or have known somebody who is perfectly well and fit, doesnt work legaly, does cash in hand here and there, and still signs on to collect his/her money. with the ovbvious exceptions, like people who cant work due to being medically exempt, do you think people who "dole doss" should have there NHS treatment rights removed? afterall, if your paying your tax and NI month in month out, and bob next door aint workedx a day in his life but gets free medical treatment, wheres the fairness in that. obviously, it would be time scaled, so you must have been not working for 6 weeks or something.

thoughts?

[Nick]

Its a tricky one to police though, isn't it?

Perhaps the guy has been seriously looking for work but not been able to get any, so he'd be refused medical treatment?

Of course, one way to work it would be to offer EMERGENCY treatment only... that'd mean that at least life wasn't at risk, but if Mr. Dole Bludger wants to get his in-growing toe nail done, he'll have to go private.

To afford that he'll have to get a job, so it forces him into work at the same time as saving the NHS money.

The risk is that genuine cases may suffer.

[DaBeeeenster]

How do you define a "dole dosser"? This argument is moot; you cant...

[Stewart]

Someone who has no medical reason preventing them from work, but doesn't, and has not worked for an extended period of time.

Simple definition, but hard to enforce.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by DaBeeeenster

How do you define a "dole dosser"? This argument is moot; you cant...

as vaul says, some one who claims JSA without ever actually accepting a job over a long period of time, with no medical or physical reason not to. wouldn't you say those people exist?

[DaBeeeenster]

I was under the impression that, if claiming jobseekers allowance for extended periods, you had to start accepting jobs irresepctive of their status relative to your experience?

[Russ]

in a perfect world, that would happen. You can refuse jobs uptill a certain point, but even if you get a job, if you dont turn up 1st day and get fired, theres no law to stop you signing on next month.

[DaBeeeenster]

That's how a welfare state works mate. It's not perfect, but it's better than letting people die of <insert terminal illness> because they dont have a job.

For example. what would your position be if someone had worked 30 years in a ship yard, then had the ship yard close and lost their job. They had been looking for work for four months, but had not found anything they could/wanted to do. They are then diagnosed with a slow growth brain tumour. You are suggesting they should be left to die?

[Russ]

like i said in the first post, there'd have to be exceptions, and this man has payed his taxes and his NI for the last 30 years.

[DaBeeeenster]

Who makes the decisions then? Which services should be restricted? What about A&E? Are you saying I need to bring in my yearly tax invoice to prove I have paid tax?

Personally, I think it's an absurd idea. Of course some people take more out of the system than they put in. That is ALWAYS going to be the case.

What if someone has a dangerous hobby. Base jumping for example. They have an accident and give themselves permament brain damage, placing an enormous economic burden on the NHS. Should they have treatment withdrawn?

[Nick]

And like I said, they could still get treatment for life threatening stuff, but minor things would either have to be paid for byt them privately, or they go get a job for a minimum of say three months before they qualify to go on a (now greatly reduced) waiting list.

You could even take it further and say that they still have to be employed right up to the point of the opertaion/treatment to qualify for it... that'd stop people taking a job for the minimum period and then quitting/getting sacked as soon as they're in.

[DaBeeeenster]

Originally Posted by Deckard

You could even take it further and say that they still have to be employed right up to the point of the opertaion/treatment to qualify for it... that'd stop people taking a job for the minimum period and then quitting/getting sacked as soon as they're in.

I dont think it would though. 60 million people in the US dont have health insurance; clearly a lot of people are not that bothered about it...

[G4Z]

well, the JSA is total pants anyway. There are plenty of charvas round newcastle that claim it and the last time I was out of work (only 6 weeks like) I was told I was not entitled because my g/f worked more than 24 hours, never mind the fact that its

A) not her responabillity to support me when Im out of work
B) she earns a pittance
C) I should be bloody entitled, after all I pay my taxes!

The whole JSA thing needs to be overhauled, imo there is no need to be out of work for an extended period, 6 months + if you're healthy theres no reason you cnat find a job in that time. Most people I think would benefit from being able to claim JSA a lot faster (rather than the 1 month turnaround time I got the first time I claimed) so that its there and they can claim it quickly should they find themselves out of work. It shouldnt be there to support people long term, it should be a short term thing to help you back on your feet. Unfortunately there seem to be people who actually make a living off it, seems like unemployed is a job title to them or somthing. Personally, I think some1 that is on JSA for an extended period and makes no real attempt at finding work should be made to do commuinty service so at least they are doing somthing for the money.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by DaBeeeenster

I dont think it would though. 60 million people in the US dont have health insurance; clearly a lot of people are not that bothered about it...

True, but there is also no free health care... As we all know, if something is free, people will take it, if it costs, they get by without it. So, by limiting who has access to the NHS, we'd be easing the burden on the NHS.

You'd be suprised what people will put up with rather than have to pay for it. Of course, those working, even if they're only doing part time due to other commitments such as childcare etc, will be able to get treatment.

Also, the service being offered will be better as there will be fewer people wanting the treatment as fewer will qualify.

[Grey M@a]

Gaz is spot on, up here in newcastle, it is rife with dole dossers to be perfectly honest, it gets on your nerves as they get housing or rent paid for, fiddle the dole by working anyway and still getting the dole money. If for example I was to lose my job now I wouldn't get a thing until 2 months down the line due to the dole offices up here being run by sub standard monkies.

I have mates who do it and they get on my nerves to, always flashing the cash as they are getting the 300 - 400 quid a week in their hand, although I get the same, once the tax and NI and loan repayments come out for uni I am lucky if i have just under 1/4 of that a week. For example a mate of mine went through Uni for 4 years like I did, he left a year before me as he didn't do a work placement year and he still hasn't had one job to date and this is three years ago, 3 years with all that knowledge and experience under his belt. Doesn't help that his parents let him live there for free, cook, clean and basically wait hand and foot on him, so much so he said one day "this is the life, f!@k work" he fiddles the dole every six months by signing off for 2 weeks then signing back on saying he was away for those weeks in order to dodge the new deal crap.

It does get to you sometimes as you are working, paying your taxes and your own way and you struggle to earn a crust to keep your head afloat with bills, housing, rent etc etc and they are sponging the system and getting it all for nothing. Luckily I have not been out of work to date since the age of 18, worked throughout uni for the uni and then where i am now since finishing uni. Yes the dole and JSA is helpful but for those that make a living off it and have no intention at all to get a job or even bother getting off the chair and looking for one, its just not on. People moan about jobs not being available, but from what I see in the papers every night is page after page of jobs in all area's and expertise.

[Rave]

The system we have now is IMO pretty much as good as it could be. Yes, there are people who abuse the system, but I'm pretty sure they're a small minority. What you've got to remember is that there are a lot of people in this country who just aren't really capable of getting a job. A member of my wife's extended family has been on the dole for at least 2 years and hasn't worked in that time. She's applied for plenty of jobs in that time, and she genuinely wants to get them, but never does. She's a nice woman and I like her, but I wouldn't employ her, and it doesn't surprise me that no-one else wants to. As a woman in her mid-50s with dodgy knees, you couldn't exactly get her doing fence painting or any oher form of manual labour 'community service', and she's not IMO smart enough to work in a call centre or something like that. So what can she do? Occasionally she earns £10 or 20 for a cleaning job or something like that, and probably doesn't declare it when she signs on, but that's hardly a big ripoff and I certainly can't blame her for it, she usually spends the money on treating herself to a meal out, or on buying presents and stuff for the rest of us.

If you know people who genuinely are taking the mick, earning hundreds a week cash in hand while claiming the dole, don't moan about it, GRASS THEM UP. AFAIK every council has a hotline set up for people to anonymously tell them about cheating scum, so use it. Take matters into your own hands if you want something done.

Rich :¬)