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Thread: Britain, the EU and the future

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    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Britain, the EU and the future

    According to this article 62% of the British supported David Cameron's move in vetoing the move for tougher guidelines on the financial sector. Apparently he has done this to protect the city of London's financial sector, which is apparently a big part of what we do in London.

    Now I could maybe understand Cameron if the financial sector was in good shape, but it's not. It's not an industry worth protecting, because it needs to change or it will collapse. Ironically the changes needed are the same as the changes that were rejected when Cameron vetoed.

    This whole thing stinks of Cameron protecting his rich banker friends and their playboy lifestyles. I for one want this coalition to split now and stop this government screwing up any further.

    London, the City that doesn't actually do anything other than skimming a bit off money off the pile as the world trades. That and mortgaging Britain via thousands of PFI's, leveraged to the max, just selling England off as we go to the private sector.

    Soon this county will be called Tescos.

    rant over!!

    what do other people think ?

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    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Re: Britain, the EU and the future

    Ohh and the whole point of the EU was to stop Nationalism, so that wars will not happen again in the future and here we are saying we are better than the rest of Europe.

    Im embarrassed by this country and our attitude.

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    Re: Britain, the EU and the future

    There are major arguments on both sides of the fence, and I've not read enough about it to take a stance. However, assuming it actually means this, we can do away with some of the pathetic EU regulations we've been absorbing. I wouldn't count on that 62% actually understanding much about it, though. I bet they didn't have an option 'neutral because I don't know much about it and wouldn't want to base a decision on knowledge gained from the tabloids'...

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    Re: Britain, the EU and the future

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    London, the City that doesn't actually do anything other than skimming a bit off money off the pile as the world trades. That and mortgaging Britain via thousands of PFI's, leveraged to the max, just selling England off as we go to the private sector.
    I think you obviously have a well learned, realistic and deep understanding of what your talking about.

    The "protecting banks" mantra is mostly spin from the pro euro camp. For the pro euro camp what Cameron did was awful. For those of us who put Britain first, before the problems of the eurozone it was exactly the right call.

    The problem of the eurozone is nothing to do with private sector banking and everything to do with the structuring of the eurozone, this bill ironically was to go further in allowing 'dodgy' countries to borrow more at german rates, whilst making Britain more liable for their bills. That is not in our interest.
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    Re: Britain, the EU and the future

    I'm very much of the opinion that the UK needs to protect it's interests in Europe, and to keep as much soverign power as we can. That said, I'm not happy with the way Cameron has presented this to the other EU leaders as it severely diminishes our future influence, and increases the risk that we may have something rammed down our throats.

    What is laughable though, is that the financial transaction tax that was shot down by Cameron is akin to the policy George Osbourne had suggested we do. Part of me is wondering if the reason he took the line he did, is because he wanted to make sure the proceeds went to the UK coffers instead of the EU's.


    Ultimately though, like it or not, the majority of the EU is heading towards federalisation, in an attempt to compete on the world stage with China and America and unless the UK wants to be as irrelevant as most African nations without natural resources, we're stuck tagging along with either Europe or the US

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    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Re: Britain, the EU and the future

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    I think you obviously have a well learned, realistic and deep understanding of what your talking about.

    The "protecting banks" mantra is mostly spin from the pro euro camp. For the pro euro camp what Cameron did was awful. For those of us who put Britain first, before the problems of the eurozone it was exactly the right call.

    The problem of the eurozone is nothing to do with private sector banking and everything to do with the structuring of the eurozone, this bill ironically was to go further in allowing 'dodgy' countries to borrow more at german rates, whilst making Britain more liable for their bills. That is not in our interest.
    nothing to do with private sector banking

    who do you think buys the debt of the counties? Investors/Hedge funds and Private sector banks maybe?

    here is a list of Greek debt owners. as you can see there are a fair few banks in that list
    http://www.leimonis.com/2011/07/main...nd-greek-debt/

    As you can see we don't have a lot of Greek debt in the UK but if you look at Ireland the story is quite different.

    And are we paying off our debts? last time i checked we are simply reducing the deficit, we are still increasing the loan year on year. There are no forecasts to reduce the capitol of the money we owe. Regulations that make us stop and reverse can only be a good thing.

    And if the Euro collapses, we won't be immune here in the UK, we will feel the pain.

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    Re: Britain, the EU and the future

    I have a fairly small understanding of what's happening and what im concerned about is the fact that we are still in the Lisbon treaty and that by opting out we are losing power and so potentially we are going to end up losing out.

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    Re: Britain, the EU and the future

    I'm not well informed on the details of the arguments, however it does appear that this was a Hobson's choice.

    I do have a natural scepticism of further subsidies to any quasi-government that has been unable to pass an audit of where the money goes for over a decade.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7092102.stm
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    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
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    Re: Britain, the EU and the future

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    nothing to do with private sector banking
    No, quite simply its not. Debt isn't a bad scary thing, so long as its easily sustainable. Not all private sector banking is the same, just because someone stole your TV does not mean that all people are scum, just because some banks deal with rates doesn't mean all do.
    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    who do you think buys the debt of the counties? Investors/Hedge funds and Private sector banks maybe?
    And? The issue is not that the <insert PIGS here> have been able to borrow money, just that they've been able to borrow it at german rates, with the germans ultimately responsible. Thats the issue!

    Who is holding the debt is not what this vote is about.
    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    And are we paying off our debts? last time i checked we are simply reducing the deficit, we are still increasing the loan year on year. There are no forecasts to reduce the capitol of the money we owe. Regulations that make us stop and reverse can only be a good thing.
    We have less than if we signed up cart blanche to the proposals on offer. efficately it would then be the PIGS borrowing with german and british acting as garantee, even worse insentives! That said it would be very simple if we could have a law that stopped any government borrowing excessive money, but labour would find a way probably via more PPP.
    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    And if the Euro collapses, we won't be immune here in the UK, we will feel the pain.
    Indeed, but if the euro collapses we would feel the pain EVEN more if we were in this cast iron agreement.

    As it stands if the euro is looking shaky we still have options, we can still say "ok we'll part-take in a bail out", but we will probably get better rates, and a better deal. Ultimately the euro may need a lot of Chinese and IMF in general money to survive, we aren't able to provide that because we've got our own debt issues.

    What gets me is the level of insaine bias that the BBC news has been giving. Its generally accepted that a lot of the media has been heavily pro euro, the FT in particular, but the current headlines:
    Is the City worse off after veto?
    Peston: Big business deeply troubled
    Robinson: The coalition shakes
    Those are the three most heavily pro euro aritcles, I can't find one anti-one.

    If you look back at some of these news outlets (most journo's at were too jounier to know jack back then) they were equially pro euro, they said the same things then, they are saying now, business won't want to invest here? (why? how the hell would it change things?) we don't want to be left out? (why would we, they would take us back with open arms in a heartbeat).

    I find this whole business really depressing, mostly because the media coverage it is getting is showing no analysis, its all un-attributed quotes, and often on the BBC having a quote, which links another article, which the quote does not appear in? Citation Needed!
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    Re: Britain, the EU and the future

    The biggest problem seems to be that the FrancoGermanic "solution" is seen as the only solution.

    As such, people are busy blaming Cameron for vetoing, when in reality no one actually knows if it would have been a workable solution.

    I read several posts on the BBC News comments by people from other EU nations saying about how "Britain has cut itself off" and "its Britain screwing it up for the rest of us".

    However, personally, I believe any such wide ranging deal that encompasses the WHOLE EU bloc is a bad thing, those that are in the Euro bloc should be the only ones involved with maintaining and stabilising the Euro.

    That said, it will be interesting to see if, at some point in the future, people start to see things differently when their elected politicians submit their budget proposals to the EU and get back a NON! or NEIN! stamped on it.

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    Re: Britain, the EU and the future

    I cant claim to understand everything as I have only read a few articles here and there but from what I have read BobF64 has posted my sentiments exactly.

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    Re: Britain, the EU and the future

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    The problem of the eurozone is nothing to do with private sector banking
    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    who do you think buys the debt of the counties? Investors/Hedge funds and Private sector banks maybe?
    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    And?
    You're too funny

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    Re: Britain, the EU and the future

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    You're too funny
    If I understand you, your view point is akin to saying that building a house on the cliff which is prone to coastal erosion is the fault of the sea when it erodes it.

    The banks were doing the role which they are were designed, making a better (no matter how marginally better) choice than the private individual would have been able to achieve. That in theory is all they need to do and should do.

    If you underwrote a credit card for your 14 year old daughter and she maxed it out on hand bags, again that is not the fault of the credit card provider.

    You've got this idea that its perfectly OK to lay blame without a basic grasp of what's gone on and I'll be honest, that saddens me more than those who have an ideological agenda.
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    Re: Britain, the EU and the future

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    ....

    Now I could maybe understand Cameron if the financial sector was in good shape, but it's not. It's not an industry worth protecting, because it needs to change or it will collapse. Ironically the changes needed are the same as the changes that were rejected when Cameron vetoed.
    ....
    Huh?

    That there are problems in banks is a good reason for solving the problems, sure. But not for deciding the City isn't worth protecting.

    For a start, independent assessments (like from accountancy firm PWC) put the tax contribution from the financial sector firms at, depending on the year, something between £50 billion and a bit over £60 billion. It is the single largest contributing sector, and is responsible for about 11% to 12% of total government reviews, all by itself.

    And bear in mind the city is not just irresponsible banks, it's also the like of insurance companies and pension funds.

    It is certainly the case that the City needs sorting out, and that the "casino" operations need to be insulated from essential services, like personal and business banking, not least because those are the oil on which business and society runs. Somebody is going to be providing them, and if it's not British banks providing funds to help pay for public services, it's going to be foreign banks which will then be paying taxes to help fund someone else's public services, overseas.

    And as for the changes needed being the ones rejected, you seriously mean having the European Commission having the ability to veto a UK budget? Or as legally binding 0.5% of GDP cap on structural deficits, which would lead to an austerity program which would make the current coalition's "cuts" look like someone had gone wild with their credit card in Harrods, and you could kiss goodbye to any chance of investment leading to growth for many years?

    Personally, I think Gordon Brown was the biggest economic disaster to hit this country in a very long time (maybe since the last ice age) but I'd rather trust him with our budget than the European Commission. At least we, the people, can (and, did ) vote Brown out. We can't vote the European Commission out.

    None of the changes proposed in that Brussels summit actually address the problem of the Euro, that being that vastly different economies, like Greece and Germany, are held in lock-step with each other despite both industries having vastly different levels of competitiveness, and the societies having vastly different values. With the Euro as a straight-jacket, those countries that have been allowed to, and even encouraged to, act in a fiscally irresponsible manner for a couple of decades can't inflate their way out, can't devalue their way out and can't use interest rates either.

    The problem isn't saving the Euro. The problem is the Euro. It is a political project, implemented for a perfectly laudable political ideal, but implemented far too fast, and with many countries in it that should never have been allowed in. What should have been done was to get the economies competitive as a real, genuine pre-cursor to entry, much as Brown insisted upon here, I'm glad to say, and that once in, the last set of fiscal rules should have been followed.

    What the Brussels rules really are is the EU saying "we know we had stability rules, and we know we ignored them. So the solution is we'll have more rules."

    The Brussels agreement is merely a method of possibly postponing the inevitable reckoning over the Euro and the levels of sovereign debt. It will not solve the problem, but it might buy time. maybe a year or two. But we can't even be sure of that, because as the Euro's leaders have found out, they don't run the things they seek to control - markets do. Like it or not, vast sums of sovereign debt are about to become due, and the only way to repay them is to borrow more, and that requires there to be someone prepared to lend. Even Germany had to buy up a large chunk of it's own debt at the last issue because the market was not there, and if those lending don't trust Germany at the moment, and they don't, what happens when the next large chunk of Italian debt come due to renewal? And don't even think about Greek debt.

    The Brussels summit has been used as a lever to advance the political project of European integration, and maybe to buy a little time for the Euro, not to save the Euro.

    The real question for the UK is do we want to be part of a politically united Europe, or not? And unless we do, signing up to that Brussels accord on an EU-wide basis would have been sheer idiocy.

    I support Cameron's decision not to sign up. I just don't believe he's been entirely honest as to why he wouldn't. And it's interesting to note that no senior Labour figure seems to want to say they would have signed up. It's also interesting to note that more than a few labour MPs backed the decision not to sing up in the Commons debate this afternoon.

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    Re: Britain, the EU and the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    It's also interesting to note that more than a few labour MPs backed the decision not to sing up in the Commons debate this afternoon.
    I noticed a suspicious absence of that too, theyve all been focusing and whinging about how Cameron has "cut Britain off" or "done a bad thing".

    Perhaps they just dont want to repeat the past, as they would have just rolled over and been taking a pounding from Sarkozy and munching Merkel by now.

    Ultimately, just like with the economy, Labour can bluster all they like, but they can not prove their "plans" are any better than those being enacted already, so theyre left trying to undermine the coalition.

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    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Re: Britain, the EU and the future

    Protect the city of London from what ?

    It already looks finished as a financial centre of the world. now compromised as financial centre of Europe.

    People and countries have been consistently been moving money away from Britain wholesale since march 2009 and for good reason. Recapitalisation of the banks, is not even treading water.

    Interest rates.

    Brazil 11%
    China 6.6%
    Turkey 5.75%
    Hungry 6.5%
    Poland 4.5%
    Ukraine 9%
    South Africa 5.5%
    Australia 4.5%
    India 8.5%
    Norway 2.25%

    In all these countries you can store your money all major currencies.
    Last edited by j1979; 13-12-2011 at 01:35 PM.

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