Russia to build new super army! Ukraine, Human Rights and WW3

[TheAnimus]

Classic blame game going on. I suspect eventual strong evidence, given the area's conflict, will determine how the events unfolded and who's responsible.

Another one to add to that.

N0490F310 ARNEM UL620 SUVOX UZ713 OSN UL980 MOBSA DCT POVEL DCT SUI L980 UTOLU/N0490F330 L980 LDZ M70 BEMBI L980 PEKIT/N0480F350 L980 B449 RANAH L750 ZB G201 BI DCT MURLI DCT TIGER/N0490F370 L333 KKJ L759 PUT R325 VIH A464 DAKUS DCT
TAMAK/N0480F350 A87 TIROM/N0490F350 A87 MAMED

The NOTAM suggests that A87 should not have been used. If it turns out they followed the flightplan logged in Flightaware (which pull this data correctly normally) then this is going to be even more complex, as they shouldn't have been there (in the area of danger)....

(NOTAMs or Notice to Airmen, this was easy to validate looking at my Sky Demon subscription.)

[peterb]

Seems (BBC news) that many airlines were already re-routing to avoid the region.

[The Hand]

Utter madness, RIP to those lost .

[Top_gun]

Seems (BBC news) that many airlines were already re-routing to avoid the region.

Actually I've heard earlier the BBC said airlines were re-routing as a result of this tragedy not as a precautionary measure as you suggested.

ETA: Just copied this from the BBC website -

"Several airlines, including Lufthansa and Air France, say they will now avoid eastern Ukrainian airspace. All times in BST"

Note the word 'now'.

[j1979]

Actually I've heard earlier the BBC said airlines were re-routing as a result of this tragedy not as a precautionary measure as you suggested.

ETA: Just copied this from the BBC website -

"Several airlines, including Lufthansa and Air France, say they will now avoid eastern Ukrainian airspace. All times in BST"

Note the word 'now'.

Exactly, the separatists shot down a Ukrainian Antonov-26 only a few days ago... so why were any planes flying in this airspace. either at 3k, or 30k.

Why were they given the all clear to fly over Donetsk Oblast?

Once again the cheapest route, shareholders, profit etc.. come before people and their lives.

[peterb]

Actually I've heard earlier the BBC said airlines were re-routing as a result of this tragedy not as a precautionary measure as you suggested.

ETA: Just copied this from the BBC website -

"Several airlines, including Lufthansa and Air France, say they will now avoid eastern Ukrainian airspace. All times in BST"

Note the word 'now'.

You may be right, although this BBC report http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-28356745
stated that KLM were already avoiding the area. BA only fly to Kiev, so I may has mis-interpreted the the position. Not that point matters much as time progresses and precautionary measures are implemented.

[TheAnimus]

Errr I'd take that with a pinch of salt, it's a popular route to cross over such place. Normally you are safe from everything at 10,000m.

Just have a look at all the airways over the area

http://skyvector.com/?ll=47.65848131...art=304&zoom=7

[Top_gun]

You may be right, although this BBC report http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-28356745
stated that KLM were already avoiding the area. BA only fly to Kiev, so I may has mis-interpreted the the position. Not that point matters much as time progresses and precautionary measures are implemented.

It seems you did misinterpret the BBC news report as it's clear KLM was the exception rather than the norm and was only mentioned towards the end of the article.

But why was KLM the only airline to take precautionary measures in view of recent Ukraine military aircraft shootings?

I can also see the EU taking a stronger stance because of loss of lives from the UK, Holland and Germany.

[Top_gun]

Errr I'd take that with a pinch of salt, it's a popular route to cross over such place. Normally you are safe from everything at 10,000m.

Just have a look at all the airways over the area

http://skyvector.com/?ll=47.65848131...art=304&zoom=7

Really safe? Except that the BUK has a altitude range of 22,000m.

[j1979]

There were not many Malaysians on-board. Only 23. 27 Australians, some Brits (6 is the latest), French, Belgians, Americans. But the majority were Dutch

I guess it does not matter where they were from, the most important that those responsible are brought to justice. Those poor families.. just seen the pictures from the Airport in Amsterdam. So tragic :/

[The Hand]

It seems you did misinterpret the BBC news report as it's clear KLM was the exception rather than the norm and was only mentioned towards the end of the article.

But why was KLM the only airline to take precautionary measures in view of recent Ukraine military aircraft shootings?

I can also see the EU taking a stronger stance because of loss of lives from the UK, Holland and Germany.

If it was the Russian backed rebels, then hypothetically NATO could be well within it rights to respond unilaterally as citizens of NATO countries were killed, it can easily be classfied as a terrorist act. I don't expect the EU to do much at all other than use harsh language. Obviously NATO won't though.

[HalloweenJack]

BUK has a limited range? OH REALLY.

SA-11 has a range of 42km and can climb to 20km - the SA-17 can go much much further - its a medium range theatre SAM - nothing like a manpad


you must consider 11 detail - at the time this happened - the `rebels` said they had shot down a Ukrainian transport aircraft in the same area...

On Thursday afternoon, a social media site attributed to Igor Strelkov, a Russian citizen who has emerged as the commander of rebel forces in Donetsk, announced that the rebels had shot down an An-26 Ukrainian transport plane, and also that there was "information about a second plane". The post was later removed.

Also the airliner was above the no fly zone in a commercial air corridor.

Russia did this pure and simple.

oh and the US is very much involved:

MH17 "was shot down" and there "may have been American citizens on board", US vice-president Joe Biden said in a speech in Detroit

this shooting war is going to get very nasty now - even more so if there`s a lot of Chinese on the aircraft as well.

[Top_gun]

If it was the Russian backed rebels, then hypothetically NATO could be well within it rights to respond unilaterally as citizens of NATO countries were killed, it can easily be classfied as a terrorist act. I don't expect the EU to do much at all other than use harsh language. Obviously NATO won't though.

I was thinking more of economic sanctions and harsher language. I don't believe military action is the right option at this stage.

[TeePee]

SA-11 has a range of 42km and can climb to 20km - the SA-17 can go much much further - its a medium range theatre SAM - nothing like a manpad

For perspective, the missile is about 6 metres long.

[chuckskull]

But is that his real vk page? Or just a parody?

It's his real page. He deleted it 20mins later.

Translation;

Summaries of the shooting of Igor
17.07.2014 17:50 (MSK) Message from the militia.

“In the area Torrez just downed plane An-26, lying somewhere in the mine” Progress. ”
Also warned – do not fly in “our sky.”
And here is the confirmation of the next video “ptichkopada.”
Bird fell for waste heap, the residential sector is not caught. Civilians are not injured.

And also have information about the second downed aircraft, like the Su. ”

—Video—

17.07.2014. In Tores downed plane 1:12

—Video—

In the area of ​​Snow Ukrainian militiamen shot down plane 17.07.2014 0:58

The videos are now confirmed as the Boeing crash site.

The rebels do have Buk; http://rusvesna.su/news/1404041521

Translation;

In Donetsk, Donetsk Army Special Forces soldiers People’s Republic captured the garrison of missile troops, anti-aircraft missile defense regiment number A-1402. In service parts are powerful air defense system of long-range detection and destruction of air targets.

The press service of the Interior Ministry of Ukraine in Donetsk region confirmed this information: “In Donetsk representatives” DNR “seized the military part number A-1402.”

Military unit A1402 (Donetsk SAM regiment) formed in the village Alexeevka Belgorod-Dniester region Odessa region. In 2007, was made part of the redeployment of A1402 in Donetsk.

Donetsk missile regiment performs tasks for the protection of the eastern borders of the state and the protection of important industrial centers of Donbass air.

Recall that the Slavic and Donetsk shares 113 km. Depending on the modification of the air defense system “Dome” is capable of detecting targets at a distance of 150 km, the working range hitting target – setting fire propelled air defense system “Buk” in the area of ​​20 km.

Same story from their twitter account also now deleted. http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...48037629018112

Translation;

“Self-propelled anti-aircraft missile systems “Buk” in the territory of anti-missile defense regiment A1402 take control of the DNI.”

Seems like a terrible case of mistaken identity. They believed it was a Ukrainian AN-26 obviously. Sorry the translations aren't great relying on Google but you get the idea.

[HalloweenJack]

Reports the `rebels` overran the A-1402 and captured the equipment on june 29th