New York's Gay School

[Slick]

Originally posted by spikegifted
in that I don't really distinguish the difference between "I don't mind..." and "I don't really mind..."

you don't distinguish the difference or you don't really distinguish the difference?

Originally posted by spikegifted
With regards to the wider 'gay rights', I don't know what kind of rights they don't already have? Are you talking about their rights to adopt children? Call me old fashion, gay people have no rights to have children - adopted or otherwise - simply based on the arguments of the children's mental and social developments. Are you talking about 'gay marriages'? Again, call me old fashion, but marriage is between two people of opposite sexes. If they wanted equal treatment of a gay couple in legal terms as 'normal couples', that's fine in my books, but not marriage.

I have to say I agree with all this too.

[Big RICHARD]

Originally posted by spikegifted

With regards to the wider 'gay rights', I don't know what kind of rights they don't already have? Are you talking about their rights to adopt children? Call me old fashion, gay people have no rights to have children - adopted or otherwise - simply based on the arguments of the children's mental and social developments. Are you talking about 'gay marriages'? Again, call me old fashion, but marriage is between two people of opposite sexes. If they wanted equal treatment of a gay couple in legal terms as 'normal couples', that's fine in my books, but not marriage.

What I've consistently said is that being gay, or homosexual, is not natural state for human being. By being gay or homosexual, the individual automatically gives up some of his/her rights.

Why? Gay people don't choose to be gay. Why should they give up some or ANY of their rights. If they have a partner, why shouldn't they be allowed to show their partner their entire commitment to them by marrying them?

Can I get married? I am straight...... But I am not at all religious, so, to the Christian lot: you can stick it up yer bum!

[Slick]

Originally posted by Big RICHARD
why shouldn't they be allowed to show their partner their entire commitment to them by marrying them?

Well I'm religious and think that a marriage should be between a man and a woman in front of God. However I'm all for the "civil partnerships" where gay people can go to a registry office and then they would have all the same legal rights as married couples. You also said that you're not religious and can marry, it'd be impossible to introduce a system where if you're not religious you can't marry.

[spikegifted]

Originally posted by Big RICHARD
Why? Gay people don't choose to be gay. Why should they give up some or ANY of their rights. If they have a partner, why shouldn't they be allowed to show their partner their entire commitment to them by marrying them?

Can I get married? I am straight...... But I am not at all religious, so, to the Christian lot: you can stick it up yer bum!

Since I'm not a psychologist nor am I a psychiatrist, so I don't know if gay people actually choose to be gay or not... With regards to marriages, you don't have to get married in a church, there're lots of people simply walk into a town hall with witnesses and get it over an done with (that's what the Ruler_of_spike and I are going to do somewhere along the line). A church service may be a contract in the eyes of the Christian god, but it's not a legal contract - that's why you still need to sign papers after the service.

Again, let me stress my rather old fashion view of marriage. The following is the definition according to the Concise Oxford Dictionary:

marriage n. 1 the legal union of a man and a woman in order to live together and often to have children. 2 an act or ceremony establishing this union. 3 one particular union of this kind (by a previous marriage). etc...

[DaBeeeenster]

A few questions, spikegifted.

1. Did you choose to be straight? You say you are no psychiatrist, so you dont know if gay people choose to be gay. I'd say answering that question will provide the answer as to whether gay people choose their sexuality.

2. You are saying that gay couples should not be married in a church, yet the church in the UK allows for gay vicars. So you're saying that a gay vicar can marry people in his church, but can not be married in the very same church?

3. Gay parents. You say it may affect an adopted child's "mental or social" development. What does that mean? What do you mean by "mental development" ? Can you provide more details here, as I'm interested in this point.

[spikegifted]

1) The way you put the question to me is making sure that I answer in such a way that will be in agreement with your theory... Anyway, the answer is that I am born male and am sexually attracted to female, so I'm classified 'straight'. In my previous post, I mentioned that I don't know whether they choose to be gay is a genuine statement as I really don't know. However, I'm sure that there is a psychological explaination into why people develop, as they do, to either remain straight or become gay...

2) I'm against gay clergy.

3) I've covered this point in this post.

[Anders]

I believe there is some evidence of genetic factors partially determining sexuality. I also read (in a quality newspaper) that the testosterone and oestrogen levels in the mother during pregnancy can affect sexuality. There was evidence that suggested the more older brothers a boy had the more likely he was to be homosexual, this was linked to changes in testosterone and oestrogen levels. I can’t remember which of the two hormones levels it was nor whether it was an increase or decrease, but I think the effect was not observed with girls. However, most things, especially to do with personality are hugely affected by the environment, so as far as I understand it, sexuality is a combination of genetics and environment. I must say I’m no expert and am only going on what I have read (in good quality publications, not “The Sun” ).

DaBeeeenster, you asked, “I'm curious as to why on earth people seem to make a constant reference between homosexuality and sexual practise.” I think it’s because we are dealing with sexual preferences so it’s hardly unrelated. Also I suppose most of us are obsessed with sex. I doubt I would feel the need to bring it up myself. Just saying that it’s not that strange that it comes up IMO.

I don’t see why homosexual couples should not be allowed to adopt. So long as they are fit parents and pass all the tests like everyone who wants to adopt I can’t see a problem. You wouldn’t stop a coloured person from adopting a white child because they might bring them up in a black way. There are so many children out there who need loving homes, so why not allow these children happiness. I don’t accept that a homosexual couple would have only homosexual friends and that their home would be a homosexual environment. By that logic, if a straight couple had only homosexual friends this would also be unacceptable. Even if you do believe the homosexual environment to be bad for children (I don’t BTW), surely it is worse for them to grow up without a loving home and (adopted) parents.

On the religion front and a church marriage. If homosexual marriage is banned under the “laws” of a religion then I suppose they have the right to practice their religion in their way, organised religion is full of hypocrisies. I think that organised religion can often breed hatred and bigotry, this is just another example, anyway that is another discussion. As for legal marriage, I have no problem with that. Am I right in thinking that homosexual couples were actually given more rights than unmarried heterosexual couples in a recent bill? It was to do with cohabiting homosexual couples getting some of the rights (e.g. shared pensions?) of married couples, however the bill excluded heterosexual couples. To me this seems like discrimination. BTW I’m not arguing that heterosexual couple are widely discriminated against. I think I have never been the victim of any discrimination myself as a straight, white, male.

[spikegifted]

Originally posted by Anders
I don’t see why homosexual couples should not be allowed to adopt. So long as they are fit parents and pass all the tests like everyone who wants to adopt I can’t see a problem. You wouldn’t stop a coloured person from adopting a white child because they might bring them up in a black way.

I'm afraid I can't agree with the above assessment... While it is true that gay people are capable of being loving parents, I, personally, think it is incorrect to allow gay couples to adopt children.

I'll use the following example. While it is crude, I believe it is a good comparison. Imagine a child being brought up by racist parents. This child see the parents being abusive towards people of skin colors other than their own and this child believe this is an acceptable way of treating people. Simple. Schools may have a hand in educating the child in term of social attitude. However, the most of important and most lasting of impressions are those formed within the family. Parents are powerful influence for their children and this child will grow up thinking it is ok to be abusive to people of other races - because the parents think it is ok and hence the child will consider this as the norm. However, we all know that rasist attitude is not correct.

This can apply to gender and sexual orientation also. So if a child see two men or two women forming a couple, this child will think same sex couple is the norm. However, just like in the rasist parents' case, same sex couple is not the norm. But how is this child going to be educated the difference between what the same sex parents are doing and that of the rest of the human race? There is no reference point. This child will grow up thinking that it is perfectly normal to have marital/sexual relationships with people of the same sex.

[DaBeeeenster]

This child will grow up thinking that it is perfectly normal to have marital/sexual relationships with people of the same sex.

But it is perfectly normal. Millions of people in England have a sexual relationship with someone of the same sex.

[Big RICHARD]

Originally posted by DaBeeeenster
But it is perfectly normal. Millions of people in England have a sexual relationship with someone of the same sex.

Thank you! I was gonna post exactly that as soon as I saw that comment!

Spikegifted:
The quote from the dictionary is correct, but only because Gay marriages are not legally recognised! So by quoting the dictionary you have not actually backed up your argument against such marriages!

Originally posted by spikegifted
1) The way you put the question to me is making sure that I answer in such a way that will be in agreement with your theory... Anyway, the answer is that I am born male and am sexually attracted to female, so I'm classified 'straight'. In my previous post, I mentioned that I don't know whether they choose to be gay is a genuine statement as I really don't know. However, I'm sure that there is a psychological explaination into why people develop, as they do, to either remain straight or become gay...

You implied here that you didn't CHOOSE to be straight or gay, it just happened.....
Just like it just happens that some people are homosexual.....

Also, you do not remain straight or become gay! You are born gay or you are born straight! Also there is absolutely nothing abnormal about being homosexual. IIRC the the ancient Greeks were known to partake in homosexual acts.

[Slick]

Originally posted by DaBeeeenster
But it is perfectly normal. Millions of people in England have a sexual relationship with someone of the same sex.

But not everyone holds that view, this is a thread about children being bullied because they're gay, these children won't realise they're gay till secondary school. Imagine what would happen if it got round the primary school playgrounds that someone's parents were gay. I would be for gay couples being allowed to adopt when society thinks it's more socially acceptable which won't fully happen for another couple of generations imo. We shouldn't put children through the bullying etc (not just by school kids but many adults are still homophobic) in order to increase a gay couple's rights.

[DaBeeeenster]

Originally posted by Slick
But not everyone holds that view, this is a thread about children being bullied because they're gay, these children won't realise they're gay till secondary school. Imagine what would happen if it got round the primary school playgrounds that someone's parents were gay. I would be for gay couples being allowed to adopt when society thinks it's more socially acceptable which won't fully happen for another couple of generations imo. We shouldn't put children through the bullying etc (not just by school kids but many adults are still homophobic) in order to increase a gay couple's rights.

I think this is the wrong way round. People will stop being bigotted and homophobic only when homosexuals are given the same rights as everyone else. People need to grow up seeing that it is normal and that homosexuals are treated in the same way as everyone else.

At the moment there is a shortage of parents who are willing to adopt children. Surely you cannot be arging that being brought up by a homosexual couple is worse than being brought up without any parents at all?

[Slick]

I don't believe there is a shortage of people willing to adopt, my aunt and uncle were unable to have a child of their own and wanted to adopt, they had to wait for over a year through the waiting lists, checks, interviews etc before this was possible.

You said that people will only change after introducing this, that won't happen overnight and the first children who are being adopted by a gay couple would have to go through the things I listed above for a long time before opinions would change.

For example, we've just moved house, our old house was a fairly middle class one built on a family estate and we sold it to a gay couple. My parents keep in touch with our old neighbours and they say that no one speaks to the gay couple and one of the families actually hates them. Now I'm not saying this is the gay couple's fault or anything but imagine if they had children. The parents of the other children would forbid them to mix with the gay couple's children from worrying that they would go round their house or become gay themselves (I know this is stupid but this is how some of my old neighbours would think).

However most of these people are mid 40s, I think the next generation accepts the idea of gay people much more, and I think the generation after that will accept them even more. To back this up m Granddad can't stand gay people, if he sees them on the TV he'll switch it off and go our the room. So I think the best thing to do would be to wait, homophobia will never completely go away e.g. there are still racists now, but I think when the homophobes become a small minority, gay people should be allowed to adopt.

[DaBeeeenster]

So what you are saying is that due to the fact that there are bigotted people in the UK, gay couples shouldn't be allowed to adopt?

Dont you think that's a bit perverse?

[spikegifted]

Originally posted by Big RICHARD
You implied here that you didn't CHOOSE to be straight or gay, it just happened.....
Just like it just happens that some people are homosexual.....

Also, you do not remain straight or become gay! You are born gay or you are born straight! Also there is absolutely nothing abnormal about being homosexual. IIRC the the ancient Greeks were known to partake in homosexual acts.

If you want to use historical examples, you could have used the Romans and the Japanese also. However, you have to make the distinction between having a homosexual relationship to confirm a patronage (which is the case mostly for the Greeks, Romans and Japanese - these people have heterosexual relationships with their wives and lovers) and having a homosexual relationship purely as a form of 'love' and being the only form sexual relationship.

As to the point regarding whether we have a choice to be straight or gay... I know that I didn't make a choice to be straight, because for me I haven't deviated from my biological, genetic and psychological norm. I would assume that you haven't had to make such a decision either. However, who are we to say whether gay people have made a choice or not? For most gay people, there's a process of 'discovery' - meaning that many of them initially thought they were attracted to the opposite sex, but somewhere a long the line, they found that they're not and in fact sexually attracted to the same sex. I'm question what factors drive these people to be homosexual. It is an innocent question - just because you and I haven't been forced into such a position doesn't mean others have not such experience. I find that rather narrow-minded.

[spikegifted]

Originally posted by DaBeeeenster
But it is perfectly normal. Millions of people in England have a sexual relationship with someone of the same sex.

Ok, I'm assuming that you're right in this, but how about the sexual origination of their children? How about these kids' psychological states? Not every family is like that one Bird Cage.

Call me old fashion, but I don't think holding a view that human beings should be a heterosexual animal is bigoted. If you look at the rest of the animal kingdom, one which homo sapien belongs, there is a distinct lack of homosexual behavior. If homosexual practice is in fact the normal, we, the human race, would have survived as it does. And it precicely because homosexual don't get to have children that we, a race, survives.