Road to SFFs

[mikeo01]

/double post

[mikeo01]

Thanks for the suggestion; I do have a lot of boxes around fortunately thought one was pretty much the exact size. Near enough. Looks great, can easily build with it. Roughly half my current case.

Also I think reason opting for it to is the internal layout, not losing flexibility but also having that compactness of an ITX system (the mainboard itself). Two DDR3 sticks is fine I only ever need 2, the only other thing I use is a sound card so it'll be nice and compact.

Also I don't think ITX is all about smallness really, its all about downsizing components for me minimalistic approach

Problem with that Silverstone case is its price and it looks quite crammed also I think there are a lot more options for appealing cases for ITX; not too much for mATX around a similar size. It would still end up bulky I recon.

The price unfortunately bumps the price up anyway


Also, looking at B85, that MSI one, cheap but should be able to throw in a Xeon or lower end i5 for nothing.

I will throw in a semi modular PSU in and will probably be looking at getting a different video card. 280X is nice but it likes juice. Maybe a 270X or lower GTX 660 may do the trick.

Quality 350W-450W PSU maybe.


Really grateful for all the input. I don't know why I got into smaller stuff lately, bought myself a cheapy tablet and that is what started me off. Smaller computing

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

The whole point of SFF systems is for portability and low volume enclosures though and it is why Shuttle and mini-ITX form factors were invented. The 250D and Prodigy are big cases and they are not really that compact,and the TJ08 only looks cramped in that picture since it has TWO cards in it and 4 RAM slots.No mini-ITX system comes close to that and I actually have been using one as my main PC since 2011,and before then Shuttles. The TJ08 actually is a decent design for cooling as the components are arranged in an airflow "tube" so all the components get cooling air. Shuttles are far more cramped and I have had high TDP components like overclocked Q6600 and HD5850 cards in them. I even had a mate who modded an ammo box with a mini-ITX motherboard and a single slot 9800GT!!

Plus if you ever want to do some overclocking of the CPU,decent overclocking capable mini-ITX motherboards are quite expensive too(EVGA Stinger and the like for example).

I honestly don't like the 250D and Prodigy personally,they kind of make a joke of the whole point of the smaller form factors,although each to their own I suppose. You are not really saving much in space going with the huge mini-ITX cases in reality. In fact the 250D takes up more space on the desk than a TJ08 despite being a mini-ITX case. It has 40% more volume than my Cubitek Mini Cube and that is not that small either.

Heck,compared to something like this Shuttle,it is positively enormous:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1499082/vp...#post_23971212

Yes,that Shuttle is running an overclocked Core i7 3770K and a GTX780TI.

Something like a Silverstone SG08-Lite is a tad larger but is around half the volume of the 250D or TJ08:

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showpr...FUoCwwodcCUA4g

It can take graphics cards upto 12.2" too.

[mikeo01]

Well, it isn't all about portability though I don't think its also flexibility with smaller components. I enjoy the look of it, the horizontal motherboard tray, the side cooling options, the large compartment for cables and a 200mm fan slow, and also the compartment for the PSU and HDDs hidden out of sight. Seems very functional.

Although the Prodigy is just wrong, it is essentially an Apple look-alike although internally it is pretty good.


Also like the Fractal Node 304, that design seems very clean, although the HDD mounting may get a bit fussy.


Overclocking wise yeah ITX boards are EXPENSIVE extremely. I am thinking about B85 now for the main fact that although I enjoy overclocking I just don't have time to faff around with it. I have played Prime and OCCT way too long

Fair enough though about the case you posted, it can handle a lot more in a small package, but there is something about it I dislike, not just the price. Just big motherboards taking up space and the HDD bays being right there. Cluttered looking, well that is my opinion anyway

Course I am bit biased because I like the 250D but hey

I'll throw up a build log of this once I start ordering parts seen as I always buy things and never show for it

[scaryjim]

... This is one of the few ITX cases which requires minimal compromise IMO. ...

If you're going ITX you're already making a compromise - you're compromising expandability for footprint/space. Every decision you make when building a PC is a compromise. If you want the smallest PC possible then you need to compromise performance, because high performance components require lots of cooling which requires lots of space.

So the real question is: what's more important to you? Size, or performance? It's increasingly sounding like you're more willing to compromise on size rather than performance, in which case I'd definitely be leaning towards mATX rather than mITX -you end up with a much wider selection of components, and you can get a cheaper mATX tower that's only minimaly larger than the kind of mITX cases you've been looking at. Ultimately it's your decision, of course, but I know where my money would be going, and it wouldn't be to mATX sized cases that only take mITX sized mobos...

[Goobley]

Just a thought that flew through my head... You're currently a network engineering student I believe? In which case I can imagine the extra slots of expandability of mATX being useful to me if you have to install bespoke hardware (weird network cards or similar)...

Might not be the case but may be worth bearing in mind for later projects.

[mikeo01]

If you're going ITX you're already making a compromise - you're compromising expandability for footprint/space. Every decision you make when building a PC is a compromise. If you want the smallest PC possible then you need to compromise performance, because high performance components require lots of cooling which requires lots of space.

So the real question is: what's more important to you? Size, or performance? It's increasingly sounding like you're more willing to compromise on size rather than performance, in which case I'd definitely be leaning towards mATX rather than mITX -you end up with a much wider selection of components, and you can get a cheaper mATX tower that's only minimaly larger than the kind of mITX cases you've been looking at. Ultimately it's your decision, of course, but I know where my money would be going, and it wouldn't be to mATX sized cases that only take mITX sized mobos...

Well, not entirely it is also because I absolutely love the 250D but also the fact that mATX still is large within a case.

Besides other than the Silverstone cases CAT pointed out are there any other cube alike mATX cases around the same price as the 250D? I mean I like the look of the Fractal Node 304 and even Elite 130. The 250D is actually smaller in terms of depth and width, its height makes up for it (+80mm). Although the case may be big in your eyes it isn't too big in mine

To be honest though I do want to downgrade in size and have more of a "box". Like the Elite 130 and CM's stacker 915 and long which I dislike I really want to go "cube" if that makes sense.

EDIT:
Elite 130: 207.4 (H) x 240 (W) x 398.5 mm (D)
250D: 290mm (H) x 277mm (W) x 351mm (D)

Against 120

Just a thought that flew through my head... You're currently a network engineering student I believe? In which case I can imagine the extra slots of expandability of mATX being useful to me if you have to install bespoke hardware (weird network cards or similar)...

Might not be the case but may be worth bearing in mind for later projects.

Thanks for the thought, fortunately I won't need much, only a COM header as I mainly work with switching and routing so I rarely touch PCs fortunately I have also come to the end of my 3rd year so won't be needing anything fancy now anyway. Though I have moved away from networking and ventured into programming

[scaryjim]

Besides other than the Silverstone cases CAT pointed out are there any other cube alike mATX cases around the same price as the 250D?

Bitfenix Phenom? It's slightly narrower and taller (250x330x374 v. 277x290x351), but the difference are marginal - just a couple of cm each way - and it's got a lovely sleek look to it.

[mikeo01]

Bitfenix Phenom? It's slightly narrower and taller (250x330x374 v. 277x290x351), but the difference are marginal - just a couple of cm each way - and it's got a lovely sleek look to it.

Ooo that is a very nice looking case and isn't too tall 330mm (H) vs my Zalman 500mm (H). Not too thin width wise either.

Probably why I want a "box/cube", something smaller from every angle I'll take a look at reviews to get a sense of its "boxiness"


So much choice so many nice cases.

[Biscuit]

Bitfenix Phenom? It's slightly narrower and taller (250x330x374 v. 277x290x351), but the difference are marginal - just a couple of cm each way - and it's got a lovely sleek look to it.

I do quite like the mATX Phenom, but there was something about the prodigy (my mate built a rig in one) that i cant quite get on with and they are quite similar. In my case hat would allow me to keep my SLI though, wouldn't need to plunge for a stupidly expensive card to avoid feeling like a downgrade in the GPU department.

[mikeo01]

Its internal is same as the Prodigy which I like because you can take out the 3.5" bay (or 5.25" whatever it was).

Although I will never be going SLI/Crossfire. I have always liked the idea of throwing in two cheap 7770s and see how they go. Although I would definitely need to watercool the GPU within the Phenom; no side vents unfortunately.

Both are too nice, on the one hand I like the thought of a teeny tiny ITX motherboard and on the other I like the expandability.

The only other benefit (except cost) with the mATX is a PCI slot (for my X-FI, which I am surprised still works ).

Otherwise I will have to put up with Realtek ACL892.


EDIT: Ah, that MSI B85i comes with a mini PCI-E slot, I could throw in a X-FI sound card with a PCI-E mini extender.

[Biscuit]

Soundcard is my issue aswell. I need a motherboard that supports DTS Connect/Dolby Live so it can connect to my amp and my wireless headphones

[mikeo01]

Mainly the more expensive boards support them I wonder why most boards don't include them, is it cost or simply PCB space. I've worked with components/software for few years and I still have no clue about audio

[Pob255]

One thing to not overlook is not just the raw physical size but the proportions, remember looks are subjective and the human brain is very fickle.
The big thing the 250D has going for it is the more square proportions which can make it look smaller to the eye than it is and more appealing.

I don't think the 250d is that bad size wise, yes for ITX it's relatively large in the overall range of ITX cases, but it does allow for more larger options.

If we take shuttle vs eilte 120 as an example, they are similar is size, layout and component options (granted the shuttle is not as long as the 120) the one major difference in components is cpu cooler and psu, these are directly linked.
Shuttles use a far smaller FLEX atx psu (actually the recent shuttles use a custom form factor that is slightly wide than standard FELX atx) this directly allows for more space for a larger cpu cooler
The Elite 120 uses a standard ATX psu, but because of the size you lose space for a large cpu cooler.
It's simple physical space restriction.
In fact there's a 3rd case we can also compair, the silverstone SG08, similar proportions and size, they got round the ATX psu & large cpu cooler conflict by moving the psu into the front of the case, but this conflicts with the dive space so your limited to a slim optical, only one 2.5" and one 3.5" drive bay.
These are the compromises you're playing with

Corsair have played around with the layout making the case shorter but taller and wider, the overall volume has increased which in turn allows for larger components (other than the motherboard)
Overall they've done a good job making the 250d one of the smaller of the large ITX cases, but because it's so close to small mATX cases is does open it up to the need for ITX at this size.

Although I must say I still like the vertical tower approach of something like the silverstone Fortress 03 (for mATX) or the Lain-Li Q07 or Q11 (although you cannot get big cpu coolers or graphics cards in these, better for general desktops)

[Pob255]

If you want a sound card and a graphics card, then ITX is not the way to go.

ITX motherboard are very space limited, which mean trying to design them and squeeze stuff onto them, esp things like high capacity VRM's for overclocking capability is complex and costly thus pushing the price up, it also limits volume and design short cuts.
For something like an ATX board a company can often create one base layout which can be used over 3 or 4 different models/versions, reducing design time and manufacturing costs. (remember that's not just were the bits are on the board but also all the copper tracers linking them together)
Also the space means to upscale something like the VRM's they cannot just add in more phases in parallel that they can on an ATX board, instead they have to up the VRM components to more "powerful" ones which adds more to the cost.

[mikeo01]

One thing to not overlook is not just the raw physical size but the proportions, remember looks are subjective and the human brain is very fickle............
Although I must say I still like the vertical tower approach of something like the silverstone Fortress 03 (for mATX) or the Lain-Li Q07 or Q11 (although you cannot get big cpu coolers or graphics cards in these, better for general desktops)

Ah, that is understandable. For instance I love the look of the Elite 110 (because it slightly is a box) while the 120/130 has more depth.

Dissimilar dimensions make it look bigger than it is. Like the Stacker 915 I mentioned, small but because it is so long it starts to look very out of place.

I think also the internal layout makes huge difference. Silverstone SG08 is one of the nicer ITX cases. I was going to opt for a modular PSU anyway as I like minimal amount, hence the liquid cooling too.


Although thinking on it, why didn't Corsair just consider a smaller SFF power supply in the 250D? That would of brought the height down without sacrificing much at all. If anything.


For me as soon as you start having differing measurements in length, width and height it begins to look messy. I'm sorry but going to have to disagree with you on the Fortress, with the I/O on top kills it for me.

Although to be fair, as some of you may have noticed, I am extremely picky when it comes to computer parts. Probably why I upgrade so (too) much

If you want a sound card and a graphics card, then ITX is not the way to go.

ITX motherboard are very space limited, which mean trying to design them and squeeze stuff onto them, esp things like high capacity VRM's for overclocking capability is complex and costly thus pushing the price up, it also limits volume and design short cuts.
For something like an ATX board a company can often create one base layout which can be used over 3 or 4 different models/versions, reducing design time and manufacturing costs. (remember that's not just were the bits are on the board but also all the copper tracers linking them together)
Also the space means to upscale something like the VRM's they cannot just add in more phases in parallel that they can on an ATX board, instead they have to up the VRM components to more "powerful" ones which adds more to the cost.

Ah, that explains why some uATX boards are more expensive than their ATX counterparts. Material and component costs should be lower though. I am probably not anticipating the time and difficulty into the design though it is impressive mind.

Also about the sound card; not necessarily. I just have one at the moment. Other than that I'd probably get some USB audio thing to at least improve the sound quality. MSI Gaming has their sound blaster (aka software layer) on top of a Realtek ACL892 and that was not actually bad. Standard ACL892 was bland.

Although in the coming years motherboards should start to get cheaper as a lot of the functions are now being done of the CPU (glad!).