Road to SFFs

[Biscuit]

If you want a sound card and a graphics card, then ITX is not the way to go.

ITX motherboard are very space limited, which mean trying to design them and squeeze stuff onto them, esp things like high capacity VRM's for overclocking capability is complex and costly thus pushing the price up, it also limits volume and design short cuts.
For something like an ATX board a company can often create one base layout which can be used over 3 or 4 different models/versions, reducing design time and manufacturing costs. (remember that's not just were the bits are on the board but also all the copper tracers linking them together)
Also the space means to upscale something like the VRM's they cannot just add in more phases in parallel that they can on an ATX board, instead they have to up the VRM components to more "powerful" ones which adds more to the cost.

Not necessarily a sound card, just a chipset built in that supports live 5.1 DTS/Dolby muxing. The boards certainly exist, there was a couple of 1155 boards that had that functionality (Asus Z77i-Deluxe) and there is quite a few more on 1150. Yes they are expensive, but you have explained the reason for this expense quite well, the question to people like me is, do the savings in space justify the expense?

The thing which seems to key in the eyes of some of the people on this thread is that the 250D and the Prodigy are too big, which almost makes a joke of the ITX from factor.... so there is no point in it.
I get where you are coming from, but if you like the case style, you can get everything you want on the motherboard so you don't need the expandability of mATX, you like having the extra cooling options which these cases allow over standard ITX, and the internal design is well thought out, seriously... why shouldn't you buy it? Being bigger than a normal ITX chassis and encroaching on smaller mATX chassis doesn't immediately = fail in my eyes. The vast number of reviewers and happy users around the net seems to support the validity of these designs so personally i wouldn't be put off by other peoples opinion. They are proven, good, popular cases.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

The thing which seems to key in the eyes of some of the people on this thread is that the 250D and the Prodigy are too big, which almost makes a joke of the ITX from factor.... so there is no point in it.
I get where you are coming from, but if you like the case style, you can get everything you want on the motherboard so you don't need the expandability of mATX, you like having the extra cooling options which these cases allow over standard ITX, and the internal design is well thought out, seriously... why shouldn't you buy it? Being bigger than a normal ITX chassis and encroaching on smaller mATX chassis doesn't immediately = fail in my eyes. The vast number of reviewers and happy users around the net seems to support the validity of these designs so personally i wouldn't be put off by other peoples opinion. They are proven, good, popular cases.

Since they make a mockery of the whole point of mini-ITX,flexATX and other smaller motherboard form factors and the whole SFF area many of use have been involved for a while??

People keep calling them small form factor,when they are not that small.



Will these fit in a bag or holdall(unless they are the size of Greater London)?? Most of these so called SFF cases won't. Utter fail.

It pisses me off as companies keep releasing these essentially modded mATX cases instead of actually innovating and making better true SFF cases.

Cases like the TJ08 have decent cooling,and you can still fit into dual cards in the same volume as a mini-ITX case which can only do one.


Maybe next time we can plonk a 200BHP motocycle engine in a Passat??

How useful is the extra cooling though? Overclock an FX8350?? A Core i7 4960X?? Wait,a second any large TDP CPUs such as the FX8350 or X79/X99 CPUs are lucky to have mATX motherboards,and even those have limitations.

The only realistic way is the Shuttle form factor which is just about big enough to do socket 2011,and that is custom and cannot be bought. That can actually be used in Prodigy as someone modded one. Sadly flexATX/Shuttle FF isn't common and is vastly superior for massive "SFF" cases.

When it comes to Z77/Z87 the motherboards are the major limiting factor,providing you delid the chips. The overclocking mini-ITX motherboards use a vertical riser card which means cooling the VRMs is going to problematic anyway,and you are limited by what coolers you can use,especially air coolers do this.

If you don't delid the chips,the TIM is going to be your problem.

Plus anyway,is 4.2GHZ going to be such a big difference from 4.3GHZ or 4.4GHZ??

[mikeo01]

Well no the point is this for me: PICTURE
Major components there ready for cooling, everything else is tucked underneath.

That is what won me over personally; the flexibility but also simplicity of it. The way in which space is managed, a large front fan to push air for the underneath HDDs out of sight, but also directly to the main area. Side vents for GPU cooling and 240mm radiator support and dual rear fans to remove any heat coming off the board itself.

For me it just seems very well thought out without any clutter or anything unnecessary.


It seems somewhat perfect, only real thing you lose is SLI/crossfire and maybe an internal sound card.

[Biscuit]

Since they make a mockery of the whole point of mini-ITX,flexATX and other smaller motherboard form factors??

Maybe next time we can plonk a 200BHP motocycle engine in a Golf GTI??

Automotive analogies aside, that's your opinion, and perhaps the general opinion of 'SFF purists'. That doesn't mean the cases are complete fail, there is clearly a market for them.

They are still small cases that can accept full length graphics cards, dual radiator water coolers, multiple hard drives and full sized power supplies, they are well built and in my opinion, they look nice.
If you want all those features, you don't need expandability, who cares if it makes a mockery of the form factor. Buy it!

Well no the point is this for me: PICTURE
Major components there ready for cooling, everything else is tucked underneath.

That is what won me over personally; the flexibility but also simplicity of it. The way in which space is managed, a large front fan to push air for the underneath HDDs out of sight, but also directly to the main area. Side vents for GPU cooling and 240mm radiator support and dual rear fans to remove any heat coming off the board itself.

For me it just seems very well thought out without any clutter or anything unnecessary.


It seems somewhat perfect, only real thing you lose is SLI/crossfire and maybe an internal sound card.

Exactly!

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Automotive analogies aside, that's your opinion, and perhaps the general opinion of 'SFF purists'. That doesn't mean the cases are complete fail, there is clearly a market for them.

They are still small cases that can accept full length graphics cards, dual radiator water coolers, multiple hard drives and full sized power supplies, they are well built and in my opinion, they look nice.
If you want all those features, you don't need expandability, who cares if it makes a mockery of the form factor. Buy it!

Because they are not small??

You do realise the term SFF,was coined by Shuttle?? It stood for Shuttle Form Factor.

The TJ08 can take dual cards,none of these massive volume mini-ITX cases can even do that. It can take loads of full sized HDDs.

They are fail.

That is a 180MM front fan BTW.

It can take a full sized power supply.

Plus dual water radiators for a 84W TDP chip??





That is the TJ08 with an H80.

Is this cooling E-PEEN we are talking about?

Right so before the H100 people never could overclock??

Well no the point is this for me: PICTURE
Major components there ready for cooling, everything else is tucked underneath.

That is what won me over personally; the flexibility but also simplicity of it. The way in which space is managed, a large front fan to push air for the underneath HDDs out of sight, but also directly to the main area. Side vents for GPU cooling and 240mm radiator support and dual rear fans to remove any heat coming off the board itself.

For me it just seems very well thought out without any clutter or anything unnecessary.


It seems somewhat perfect, only real thing you lose is SLI/crossfire and maybe an internal sound card.

A 240MM radiator to overclock a 77W to 84W TDP chip??

LOL??

You will hit a limitation with:
1.)VRM cooling
3.)TIM
4.)Silicon lottery.

Honestly how many of you have actually used a SFF system and tried overclocking one??

The repeated calling of these huge cases SFF,when they are actually quite large is only done by people who own excessively large full ATX cases.





At that point,any bloody case which is smaller is "SFF"!

[Biscuit]

Because they are not small??

Compared to true ITX cases... maybe not. Compared to ATX cases... yeah they are. mATX i can see the argument for using one or the other depending on what you want to do

They are fail. The TJ08 can take dual cards,none of these massive volume mini-ITX cases can even do that. It can take loads of full sized HDDs.

So if you need to do that, maybe mATX is the way to go

It can take a full sized power supply.

Plus dual water radiators for a 84W TDP chip??

Is this cooling E-PEEN we are talking about?

Its not necessary but the H100 is pretty damn quiet. I know because i have one, and i like it. I don't have an overclock running i just use it because it keeps things cool with minimal fuss. Hell even if it was just epeen, is that so bad? What if people just want to do it for the hell of it?
What if people want to look into their PC and see nice a nice tidy build like the image Mike posted?

Right so before the H100 people never could overclock??

I never said that so please don't put words in my mouth.

I have seen the TJ08, my old flatmate has one, i didn't like it at all. Although i wasn't overly keen on the prodigy, i would choose it over the TJ08 in a heartbeat.

[mikeo01]

Who said I am overclocking or even OC to the extreme? That H100 will provide me with silence and a very sleek system. Nothing in the way. The point is there is two large side vents to accommodate enough cooling. You need not worry about the HDDs as they are on their own at the bottom. A simple 200mm front fan will push enough air across the ITX board and those rear 80/92mm (can't remember which ones) will push enough of the hot air out.

So it isn't "LOL" it is because liquid does a good job at cooling, especially for silence at stock.

I wouldn't say it is making a mockery of ITX. I certainly wouldn't want to be lugging around an expensive setup anyway; I'd take a laptop or more basic system personally.


Also, the image you posted does look very cramped. Sure you can fit more but I have never felt the need to add a second card nor have I ever needed the optical drive or multiple hard drives.


It has never been for epeen as you never see me posting any images of my computer. I want it for the clean look, easy management and pure simplicity of it. It is functional. A box with minimal fuss.

[Biscuit]

At that point,any bloody case which is smaller is "SFF"!

Ok, from now on we will call it a Mini-Tower or Cube and avoid the term SFF like the plague perhaps

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Compared to true ITX cases... maybe not. Compared to ATX cases... yeah they are. mATX i can see the argument for using one or the other depending on what you want to do

So if you need to do that, maybe mATX is the way to go

Which just shows you what mini-ITX was designed to do(look at the history behind it). Things like flexATX/Shuttle form factor are designed for what you are looking at,not mini-ITX which is a bit of bastard form factor as a result.

It was designed more for small industrial computers.

Its not necessary but the H100 is pretty damn quiet. I know because i have one, and i like it. I don't have an overclock running i just use it because it keeps things cool with minimal fuss. Hell even if it was just epeen, is that so bad? What if people just want to do it for the hell of it?
What if people want to look into their PC and see nice a nice tidy build like the image Mike posted?

I use an H40 on a SB Core i5 with AF120s(not quiet fans) with resistors/system control,in an aluminium Cubitek case,with some sound proofing. The most I can here is pump noise and it is just behind my monitor. Since it is an aluminium case sound is transmitted much more easily than steel.

My flipping graphics card is the noisiest part at load,and thats because I went for the cheapest aftermarket GTX660 I could find!!

The newer Intel CPUs produce less heat,and yes they run hot but as long as you are within spec it does not matter.

Heck,Shuttles have all the cables pre-routed already. The PSUs are based on industrial Bronze rated FSP units,and are built like tanks. People run GTX780s off them for example.

They are the easiest builds I have done and everything is tidy enough.

OTH,they are tiny but expensive and of course it is a custom form factor(although the cases can use mini-ITX motherboards).

I never said that so please don't put words in my mouth.

Apparently this is the BIG thing about these massive mini-ITX cases.

Maybe with the new enthusiast Intel TIM/solder in Haswell refresh we can use saner coolers??

I have seen the TJ08, my old flatmate has one, i didn't like it at all. Although i wasn't overly keen on the prodigy, i would choose it over the TJ08 in a heartbeat.

I saw the case,considering it is mATX,and quite small for one,it is quite an achievement. The 250D and Prodigy are nice enough looking but considering the motherboard size they don't really seem to be that innovative.

[mikeo01]

The term cube sounds better suited because you can get MountainMods cube and also Corsair's Air 540 for instance, they are big more like big toy boxes.

[Biscuit]

Which just shows you what mini-ITX was designed to do(look at the history behind it FFS). Things like flexATX/Shuttle form factor are designed for what you are looking at,not mini-ITX which is a bit of bastard form factor as a result.

Thats all it is though, history, not rules. I couldn't give a damn about the history if I'm honest. I certainly don't see any need to ensure the market, or my opinion on the products it produces live up to that history. I just want to get what is suitable for me, that i will enjoy building with and enjoy owning.

I use an H40 on a SB Core i5 with AF120s(not quite fans) with resistors/system control,in an aluminium Cubitek case,with some sound proofing. The most I can here is pump noise and it is just behind my monitor. Since it is an aluminium case sound is transmitted much more easily than steel.

The newer Intel CPUs produce less heat,and yes they run hot but as long as you are within spec it does not matter.

And that would be a solid recommendation to anyone else wanting to do the same, still doesn't change that there is nothing really wrong with someone wanting to go the route of using a H100 and a 250D/Prodigy if those are the cases they prefer the look of and they dont need the expandibility.

We are going in circles a bit here, the essential element of this is not everyone wants, or needs to squeeze out the maximum performance and capability from every millimeter of space in the chassis. You get a kick out of that, and i respect it.

Apparently this is the BIG thing about these massive mini-ITX cases.

Maybe with the new enthusiast Intel TIM/solder in Haswell refresh we can use saner coolers??

Perhaps that is the big thing with them for some people, people get a kick out of tinkering and playing around. i just like the style and the way they have been thought out. There is a video on NCIX youtube that Linus did about putting a high end build in a 250D, that was what won me over with the case. There is lots of little touches that corsair have put into the internals to ease some of the frustrations with building in such a cramped case.

I saw the case,considering it is mATX,and quite small for one,it is quite an achievement. The 250D and Prodigy are nice enough looking but considering the motherboard size they don't really seem to be that innovative.

Yeah i guess its fairly impressive, i just did not like the look of building in it or its style. The resulting finish was not one that you could put a window on really. I didn't think all that much of the build quality either.
Perhaps Corsair and BitFenix are not pushing the boundaries to make it as small as it possibly could be but not everyone needs that.

[Goobley]

The manufacturers are clearly not targeting minimum size. if they were the Ncase M1 would be licensed and taken on by someone like lian-li. This case is smaller than Shuttle form factor (15% bigger than SG05), but crams in 3 expansion slots, and a whole load of modular options allowing people to cater it to their needs, not just what the manufacturers think they need.

[mikeo01]

Watched Linus's review on the 250D early this morning; superb review and really showed off the best features of this case.

I think what I like about it is there is no waste, every part of the case is used. Nothing worse for me than having some cages left empty, empty spaces and patches just having stagnant air for instance.


I mean it is impressive what can be fit in some cases, but they seem just that for me, cramming stuff in. Styling does play a bit of a role when most come with a hefty price tag.


I suppose it is all very subjective

But anyway I will chuck up my build once I get the ball rolling. I'll see what type of discount I can get through Flubit too

[mikeo01]

The manufacturers are clearly not targeting minimum size. if they were the Ncase M1 would be licensed and taken on by someone like lian-li. This case is smaller than Shuttle form factor (15% bigger than SG05), but crams in 3 expansion slots, and a whole load of modular options allowing people to cater it to their needs, not just what the manufacturers think they need.

Now that will be interesting nice looking too.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Thats all it is though, history, not rules. I couldn't give a damn about the history if I'm honest. I certainly don't see any need to ensure the market, or my opinion on the products it produces live up to that history. I just want to get what is suitable for me, that i will enjoy building with and enjoy owning.

Which again is why you don't get it. Why do you think the mb is 17X17CM then??

The mini-ITX FF is not made for stupidly big cases like the 250D. FlexATX/Shuttle FF are more suited for that anyway.

Like I said its motocycle engine in a Passat.

It will run perfectly well,but kind of is a wasted opportunity.

And that would be a solid recommendation to anyone else wanting to do the same, still doesn't change that there is nothing really wrong with someone wanting to go the route of using a H100 and a 250D/Prodigy if those are the cases they prefer the look of and they dont need the expandibility.

Which again is the point. Massive volume,limited expansion.

We are going in circles a bit here, the essential element of this is not everyone wants, or needs to squeeze out the maximum performance and capability from every millimeter of space in the chassis. You get a kick out of that, and i respect it.

Perhaps that is the big thing with them for some people, people get a kick out of tinkering and playing around. i just like the style and the way they have been thought out. There is a video on NCIX youtube that Linus did about putting a high end build in a 250D, that was what won me over with the case. There is lots of little touches that corsair have put into the internals to ease some of the frustrations with building in such a cramped case.


Yeah i guess its fairly impressive, i just did not like the look of building in it or its style. The resulting finish was not one that you could put a window on really. I didn't think all that much of the build quality either.
Perhaps Corsair and BitFenix are not pushing the boundaries to make it as small as it possibly could be but not everyone needs that.

Look at the Ncase M1 which Goobley mentions. It is possible the finest mini-ITX case ever made.

Maybe,we need to agree to disagree on the 250D and Prodigy.

[Biscuit]

The manufacturers are clearly not targeting minimum size. if they were the Ncase M1 would be licensed and taken on by someone like lian-li. This case is smaller than Shuttle form factor (15% bigger than SG05), but crams in 3 expansion slots, and a whole load of modular options allowing people to cater it to their needs, not just what the manufacturers think they need.

I had forgotten about that actually.