Road to SFFs

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

The manufacturers are clearly not targeting minimum size. if they were the Ncase M1 would be licensed and taken on by someone like lian-li. This case is smaller than Shuttle form factor (15% bigger than SG05), but crams in 3 expansion slots, and a whole load of modular options allowing people to cater it to their needs, not just what the manufacturers think they need.

Now that will be interesting nice looking too.

IIRC,the cases are actually made by Lian Li on a batch basis.

BTW,HardOCP is an awesome forum for SFF builds and is where the Ncase project was born.

Edit!!

Here is a build log:

http://www.overclockers.com/forums/s...d.php?t=741894

A few people on OcUK bought some of the first batch:

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/sho...php?t=18555808

Comes to around £180 including import duties. Very expensive but it is a bespoke case,and fairly unique.

[Biscuit]

Which again is why you don't get it. Why do you think the mb is 17X17CM then??

The mini-ITX FF is not made for stupidly big cases like the 250D. FlexATX/Shuttle FF are more suited for that anyway.

I didn't realise it was necessary to 'get it' to have an opinion on what i like. I understand why you don't like it, i understand why you think its pointless, but you cant force that perspective on everyone else.

Like I said its motocycle engine in a Passat.

But that simply wouldn't work properly, its a daft car analogy that doesn't really translate. This would work perfectly well, you just don't like that it isn't space-optimised.

Look at the Ncase M1 which Goobley mentions. It is possible the finest mini-ITX case ever made.

Wont see any arguments from me. Looks great, although quite tricky to get looking tidy.

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/sho...php?t=18555808

Comes to around £180 including import duties. Very expensive but it is a bespoke case,and fairly unique.

That is a lot. I signed up to find out when they are available but thats a bit more than i think i would want to splash out.

I cant seem to find good images that show where the HDD go when you have both fan slots populated?

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I didn't realise it was necessary to 'get it' to have an opinion on what i like. I understand why you don't like it, i understand why you think its pointless, but you cant force that perspective on everyone else.

Mini-ITX is made to a space optimised form factor.Hence plonking it in a massive case,which makes poor use of space,well smacks of meh design for the case. Its no different than using a mini-ITX motherboard in a Corsair 600T.

The 250D is a not a great design for its volume. Its funny that two people from a forum in their spare time could design a better case,which can do as much but in a much smaller volume.

Its only expensive down to the limited production run.

But that simply wouldn't work properly, its a daft car analogy that doesn't really translate. This would work perfectly well, you just don't like that it isn't space-optimised.

It works very well actually. A tiny power motorcycle engine could probably be made to be work in a car,but it defeats the whole point of a motocycle engine(size). Just like the 250D.

Wont see any arguments from me. Looks great, although quite tricky to get looking tidy.

Looks perfectly fine to me. OTH,I am used to working with small cases anyway.

Like I said we will have to agree to disagree about the new generation of massive volume "small" cases.

Personally,I think Corsair and the like need to hire better designers and try to be more innovative,and actually using the form factor effectively.

If two people on HardOCP can do a better design in their spare time,it does make me wonder how much time the case companies have actually spent on designing their cases!

However,that costs more in design fees and more in manufacturing. Hence there is a distinct lack of innovation,just also ran,"me too" designs.

[mikeo01]

I suppose that is the difference though; you have worked with smaller cases so the 250D will feel small for me, coming from a Zalman Z11 don't really think its design badly, it is basically a MB sitting on top of a PSU.

Looks like there is multiple mounting points for HDDs, probably would have to give up a fan space by the looks of it. SSDs should be fine without any mounting

[Biscuit]

The 250D is a poor design for its size. Its funny that two people from a forum could design a better case.

But you are basing 'poor' and 'better' on your perspective of what makes thing good and bad. My perspective, perhaps mikes perspective, Pobs perspective, jims etc etc... could all be different, if enough people like what they see and buy it, its not a 'fail' in the commercial sense. All the reviews i have read so far have been shining, so it seems you are in somewhat of a minority. im not having a dig at you for that, just don't understand why its so important to you that everyone gets in line with the hatred for oversized ITX cases.

Looks perfectly fine to me. OTH,I am used to working with small cases anyway.

I just don't like rats nest of cables, it annoys me that the back of my 650D is a rats nest but there is nothing i can do about it... i have tried... so many times. You couldnt put a window on the case, thats for sure... but thats not the point of this case. Its very much about maximising potential space rather than being able to show off the hardware.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

But you are basing 'poor' and 'better' on your perspective of what makes thing good and bad. My perspective, perhaps mikes perspective, Pobs perspective, jims etc etc... could all be different, if enough people like what they see and buy it, its not a 'fail' in the commercial sense. All the reviews i have read so far have been shining, so it seems you are in somewhat of a minority. im not having a dig at you for that, just don't understand why its so important to you that everyone gets in line with the hatred for oversized ITX cases.

Beige cases were common and used by most people for decades. It does mean that they were great designs. Plus sorry I am not in some minority just because I don't think the 250D/Prodigy are great cases. A number of my mates who are not even SFF PC people think they are just way too big considering the size of the mini-ITX motherboard. But,OTH most of them only want to go smaller since its easier to take a smaller volume SFF PC to things like LANs,and they take up less space.

In portability the 250D is no different than a TJ08. In fact since it is so wide I would say its worse.

I just don't like rats nest of cables, it annoys me that the back of my 650D is a rats nest but there is nothing i can do about it... i have tried... so many times. You couldnt put a window on the case, thats for sure... but thats not the point of this case. Its very much about maximising potential space rather than being able to show off the hardware.

Messy cables are annoying no doubt,but one of the main problems are the PSUs. Now with fully modular PSUs,luckily things are easier,like this one:

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/450w-...0plus-gold-psu

The Shuttles I worked with are barebones,so the cables are made to fit the case and most of them are prerouted.

However,the NCase M1 is impressive since it can take normal components and I really hope it gives a kick up the arse to companies to start innovating in the SFF area. It seriously embarassing what the two people on HardOCP have done,and IMHO it smacks of complacency on the part of case designers.

[mikeo01]

On the note of PSUs, I am considering a GTX 760; now from reviews it seems not so much more power hungry than a HD 7870. So what PSU do you think would go nicely with it? 450W?

May go hybrid modular since they are cheaper and I doubt I need fully modular.

[Biscuit]

Beige cases were common and used by most people for decades. It does mean that they were great designs. Plus sorry I am not in some minority just because I don't think the 250D/Prodigy are great cases. A number of my mates who are not even SFF PC people think they are just way too big considering the size of the mini-ITX motherboard. But,OTH most of them only want to go smaller since its easier to take a smaller volume SFF PC to things like LANs,and they take up less space.

Im basing the minority comment it on the general consensus of reviews throughout the web. You don't need to take offence to this and defend it, its simply a difference of opinion you have to the majority of respected review sites.

In portability the 250D is no different than a TJ08. In fact since it is so wide I would say its worse.

I would probably agree with that, a narrower case might fit in a suitcase alongside your kegs and shirts. Doesn't change anything regarding this discussion though really.

Messy cables are annoying no doubt,but one of the main problems are the PSUs. Now with fully modular PSUs,luckily things are easier,like this one:

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/450w-...0plus-gold-psu

The Shuttles I worked with are barebones,so the cables are made to fit the case and most of them are prerouted.

However,the NCase M1 is impressive since it can take normal components and I really hope it gives a kick up the arse to companies to start innovating in the SFF area. It seriously embarassing what the two people on HardOCP have done,and IMHO it smacks of complacency on the part of case designers.

It is impressive, very impressive, but i doubt it has them quivering in their boots and i don't personally think it will make a lot of difference to the market. Hopefully I'm wrong and we will see a bigger variety of ITX cases to satisfy everyones requirements.

[Biscuit]

On the note of PSUs, I am considering a GTX 760; now from reviews it seems not so much more power hungry than a HD 7870. So what PSU do you think would go nicely with it? 450W?

May go hybrid modular since they are cheaper and I doubt I need fully modular.

450 will be plenty. Have a look at what the 'hybrid' part of the psu is before you make your decision. My current one is a hybrid and basically everything you need is permanently connected except extra PCI-E plugs and HDD connectors. Some of the permanent cables are currently unused which is a pain.

[mikeo01]

Thanks just wondering what are Coolermaster's VS series like? Or their G450M? (I know their GS is not so good).

Or Sharkoon SHA450M? There are a lot of choices but my favourite XFX is a tad on the expensive side. Or maybe Be Quiet. Lots of choices.

[Goobley]

This is the inside of my current case since the rebuild, yes the cables are messy as I have a PSU with long cables in an elite 120, but they're all pulled out of the airflow. I have a straight tunnel going through from my front fan.

This case is ~20L, the 250D is ~30L, I'm drowning in space here and the 250D is 50% bigger again...

My current build would fit fine in an SG05 which is half the volume! When I ordered I didn't realise quite how large these 'little' cases are. (Had silverstones semi-fanless SFX PSU been available when i built my rig I would have used that in an SG05/6, it doesn't even work out more than the elite+a decent ATX PSU).

I'm not trying to push you one way or another but I'm just sharing my learning experience thus far.

The SFF section of Hard Forums really does have some good stuff, although the do tend to laugh at things the size of the elite 120 or larger.
The M1 is indeed produced by Lian-Li, it also looks like another production run is coming soon.

EDIT: Is modular a requirement for the PSU? I find that I end up using all the cables but one anyway and can do without the fiddly connectors. If it's not a requirement I would suggest the FSP Raider 450W which is actually 80+ silver rated now, amazon just hasn't updated their site to show it. It looks supremely good value and I'm getting one when i shift my rig home (only taking internals to save on space).

[Biscuit]

I usually use this list to help me figure out who the OEM is which is usually a good clue as to the quality, but that model doesn't seem to be on it. Thats nothing to worry about necessarily, its probably just a newer model.

[mikeo01]

I usually use this list to help me figure out who the OEM is which is usually a good clue as to the quality, but that model doesn't seem to be on it. Thats nothing to worry about necessarily, its probably just a newer model.

Ah thanks very helpful Biscuit Thermaltake Smart series is made by Sirtec (never heard of them) and most others like that Sharkoon one is made by FSP which is trustworthy

Be Quiet one is made by HEC, which is decent too.

Also it seems Coolermaster VS has teamed up with Seasonic, which is a good sign. So any one of those seem good I'll skip the G series.

Wicked!

This is the inside of my current case since the rebuild, yes the cables are messy as I have a PSU with long cables in an elite 120, but they're all pulled out of the airflow. I have a straight tunnel going through from my front fan.......

Thanks for a picture of your build; there is a lot of room in there actually that is something to think about; didn't realise the space there.

Also £40 for the FPS Raider is a bargain! I don't necessarily need modular but after using a wired PSU cables really do get on my nerves

Its those peasky SATA and molex cables; the ones which don't bleeding fit anywhere because they are so chunky molex aren't so bad. Only considered modular so its nice and clean.

I will have a think, shop around a bit

[mikeo01]

Is it worth paying an extra £5 for the smaller (refurb) H80i? According to Bit-Tech it is superior to the H100?

Pretend I was going to overclock the 4670K, what you think would be bare minimum? There's the H60 refurb (cheap!) and also for a tenner more a H55.

Quite hard to decide what one, not too good with AIO liquid solutions the plan is to see if I can get a decent cooling GFX card. NZXT G10 and another AIO cooler is an option (to slap on to replace the stock GFX coolers).

[Biscuit]

Depends how much you want to overclock and how lucky you are with the chip you buy. The limit with Haswell and IVB is often down to the thermal compound used between the chip and the heat shield that your cooler sits on top of. It works fine up to a certain point then the temps just get uncontrollable. If you are just going for a modest bump in performance, and not an extreme, to the very limit kind of thing then any of the watercoolers will be just fine. I you are pushing it to the edge of what the chip can do then spending a little extra might be worth it.

Make sure to take into account the fans with these coolers, some of the stock ones are god-awful. I changed mine immediately, although I'm not overly happy with whats on there at the moment (Akasa Piranha). I got them just because they matche dmy colour scheme ^_^

[mikeo01]

I was thinking maybe 4.0Ghz; that'll be plenty fast; faster than anything I have owned if a smaller AIO will be fine I may get two and consider slapping it on the GFX (with NZXT G10).

Really? I thought the stock fans were half decent I was considering the Corsair Air series (the apparently high static pressure ones) just because they are fancy looking.

Ah, how are those Piranhas? the specs on them look good do they live up to it?