Road to SFFs

[mikeo01]

Hello all
I have recently been checking out AMDs AM1 and it got me thinking; I really like the look of smaller form factors.
I call the thread "Road to SFCs" because I want to gradually get into them.
So, poll says it all. Looking to slowly merge into a smaller system. So it will eventually be used for gaming and general work. Key word is small.
So choices from the poll:
FM2+ and keep fingers crossed.
Go all out and get an I5-4670K setup.
Be hesitant and seek out a cheaper Z77 setup.
Consider mATX?
Consider AM1 setup for now.
ITX Cases:
Fractal Node 304
Coolermaster Stacker 915
Coolermaster Elite 130
Antec ISK600
mATX:
Aerocool DS Cube? (honestly though, how big is it?)
Hoping these cases can be put up against my Zalman Z11 Plus, ideally the type of system I'd like is one where it can sit comfortably next to a 24" monitor and look small. A.k.a a "cube".
Something similar to THIS. Nice and small that is the Elite 120 I believe.
VS
THIS. Great towering thing. I am going off "bulk"
Thanks
Mike


Thanks for all the help and votes - build log. Final images will be here.

For now updates on my build

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

It depends on your budget TBH.

[mikeo01]

Budget is determined by how loud I say "HOW MUCH???".

Here is a break down on some things I have seen:

Z87 ITXs - £100 ~ £130
Z87 mATX - Up to £100
Z77 ITX - £100
Z77 mATX - £70 ~ £90
FM2+ ITX - £70 ~ £80

I5-4670K - £130 (used)
I5-2500K - £100 (used)
I7-2600K - £145 (used)


To be perfectly honest it is the prices of ITX which is really making me I mean £70/80 isn't too bad for an ATX/uATX, but £100+ is asking a bit much, even for ITX.

It is whether or not A) Z87 ITXs will come down in price. B) Whether I am better off seeking out cheaper Z77s

[mikeo01]

UPDATE:

Edging closer to it!

Case: Corsair 250D
Cooling: Corsair H50, H100? Cleaner look.

Motherboard LGA1150:
MSI H87
Gigabyte Z87
MSI Z87

Motherboard LGA1155:
Gigabyte Z77
Asrock Z77

Also I ideally would like the option to OC

[scaryjim]

Antec NSK1380 + FM2+ mATX motherboard.

I know you say "hope for better CPUs" but I'm not sure what you need a better CPU for, tbh - an A10 will be ample for pretty much everything you want to do, and is also overclocking capable.

The NSK1380 is a well designed mATX cube that's no larger than most mITX cases currently available. Should take most sensibly-sized single or dual slot graphics cards for gaming (although I can't remember what the situation with the PSU and PCIe cables is off-hand). The internal layout means you'll have to make some careful choices on the internal components, but it's one of the most compact mATX cases you can get, gives you a much wider choice of motherboards.

As I say, I'd go FM2+, and get the 7700k - a couple of notches on the unlocked multiplier and it''ll match the 7850k on CPU performance - and run dual graphics with an R7 250 - I reckon it's probably the best performance option on a budget. Of course, you can always go for a more powerful discrete GPU, and then make a decision on Intel or AMD based on that, but I'm of the opinion that Intel don't offer sufficient performance benefits to make it worth investing the extra money...

Alternatively, you can go for an even tighter budget and try something like my build for the QOTW a couple of weeks ago about building a PC for less than an XBOne: http://forums.hexus.net/hexus-news/3...ml#post3258069

[mikeo01]

Antec NSK1380 + FM2+ mATX motherboard.

I know you say "hope for better CPUs" but I'm not sure what you need a better CPU for, tbh - an A10 will be ample for pretty much everything you want to do, and is also overclocking capable.

The NSK1380 is a well designed mATX cube that's no larger than most mITX cases currently available. Should take most sensibly-sized single or dual slot graphics cards for gaming (although I can't remember what the situation with the PSU and PCIe cables is off-hand). The internal layout means you'll have to make some careful choices on the internal components, but it's one of the most compact mATX cases you can get, gives you a much wider choice of motherboards.

As I say, I'd go FM2+, and get the 7700k - a couple of notches on the unlocked multiplier and it''ll match the 7850k on CPU performance - and run dual graphics with an R7 250 - I reckon it's probably the best performance option on a budget. Of course, you can always go for a more powerful discrete GPU, and then make a decision on Intel or AMD based on that, but I'm of the opinion that Intel don't offer sufficient performance benefits to make it worth investing the extra money...

Alternatively, you can go for an even tighter budget and try something like my build for the QOTW a couple of weeks ago about building a PC for less than an XBOne: http://forums.hexus.net/hexus-news/3...ml#post3258069

Thanks for the reply

I will be honest I don't actually game much, more of a general purpose mini build. Only thing I'd say is some games (ARMA in particular) like CPU speed, I have had a go at an Athlon 760K, 1090T and I7-3770. Other than the i7 it runs mid 30s and low 20s a lot of the time. That is paired with a 7870/R9 280X so I want a build can could at least run it smooth really. Other than that Battlefield now and again I play (my 760K struggled with a lot of players).

Being picky, problem with the NSK1380 is the additional cost could be put towards better internals

I already own an R9 280X which I could throw in there; or if my 7870 doesn't get sold I could throw that in there either.


TBH I'd love to have the 7700K+R7 250 but the CPU would hold me back (ST is similar to Piledriver?).


Of course lower the price the better; my fault for enjoying the ARMA games

[Goobley]

My personal feeling would be more along the lines of the basic i5 (4440? IIRC) with a H87/81 MoBo.

Do you need to overclock? Do you even wish to? I'm running mITX and am now extremely pleased with my system (in my case the i3 does all I desire, it was a good price, runs all my games and most of my code is single threaded or GPGPU - so a no brainer for me). You do have to consider heat much more if you go mITX, you're not going to get a crazy overclock unless you watercool anyway, (even with an AIO, case options are severely limited).

Pob said to me in one of my threads a while back (paraphrasing): ITX is all about choosing your compromises. It took me a while to get this; you can't balance heat to noise in ITX the same way as you can in a larger case. For me, if this means I'm not overclocking, so be it... in time I may pick up a 65W i5/i7, but I'm not going to stick a higher wattage CPU than that into my case, because this would require a compromise on either temperatures or noise that I'm not willing to make.

You say Arma runs fine on an IB i7, but not on the Phenom II X6, this implies that it must be fairly clock speed (and of course IPC) dependant and probably doesn't require 8 threads. If 4 suffice then I'd be inclined to go with a lower i5, the difference between all the i5s (non OC) is IIRC less than 10%, for a much larger increase in price.

You do pay a premium to have a happy life on ITX - things like cooler compatibility is still much harder and you frequently end up paying more for less material in a smaller form factor (i.e. to keep my i3 quiet I stuck it under a Noctua L9i - this cooler costs almost double a Hyper 212 and has lower performance).
Ok I seem to be rambling a little now - maths exam today has possibly messed up my mind slightly...

My opinion would be a low end haswell i5, with a H87/81 (depending on features) motherboard, in a CM elite 130. I went through a similar intel vs. AMD debate to you when I bought my rig and nearly ened up with a 760k, but my decision was made due to deciding that a 760k would need OCing => more expensive MoBo and a better cooler (like a H80 to be able to fit it into ITX). Whereas intel was a dear CPU with a cheap motherboard, no OC required. For me that was a self-answering question when I really thought about it.

[mikeo01]

My personal feeling would be more along the lines of the basic i5 (4440? IIRC) with a H87/81 MoBo.

Do you need to overclock? Do you even wish to? I'm running mITX and am now extremely pleased with my system (in my case the i3 does all I desire, it was a good price, runs all my games and most of my code is single threaded or GPGPU - so a no brainer for me). You do have to consider heat much more if you go mITX, you're not going to get a crazy overclock unless you watercool anyway, (even with an AIO, case options are severely limited).

Pob said to me in one of my threads a while back (paraphrasing): ITX is all about choosing your compromises. It took me a while to get this; you can't balance heat to noise in ITX the same way as you can in a larger case. For me, if this means I'm not overclocking, so be it... in time I may pick up a 65W i5/i7, but I'm not going to stick a higher wattage CPU than that into my case, because this would require a compromise on either temperatures or noise that I'm not willing to make.

You say Arma runs fine on an IB i7, but not on the Phenom II X6, this implies that it must be fairly clock speed (and of course IPC) dependant and probably doesn't require 8 threads. If 4 suffice then I'd be inclined to go with a lower i5, the difference between all the i5s (non OC) is IIRC less than 10%, for a much larger increase in price.

You do pay a premium to have a happy life on ITX - things like cooler compatibility is still much harder and you frequently end up paying more for less material in a smaller form factor (i.e. to keep my i3 quiet I stuck it under a Noctua L9i - this cooler costs almost double a Hyper 212 and has lower performance).
Ok I seem to be rambling a little now - maths exam today has possibly messed up my mind slightly...

My opinion would be a low end haswell i5, with a H87/81 (depending on features) motherboard, in a CM elite 130. I went through a similar intel vs. AMD debate to you when I bought my rig and nearly ened up with a 760k, but my decision was made due to deciding that a 760k would need OCing => more expensive MoBo and a better cooler (like a H80 to be able to fit it into ITX). Whereas intel was a dear CPU with a cheap motherboard, no OC required. For me that was a self-answering question when I really thought about it.

Thanks for some insight onto building with ITX

I understand what you mean, a lot of costly considerations due to the size etc.

Well, considering the 3770 ticked along nicely I don't need to OC but I suppose the option is nice to have if I want to. Although like you said opting for a lower CPU and board; that will save near £50. I think it is slightly future proofing I am thinking of; for instance a year or months down the line I may think "I wish I got a Z87 chipset now).

I wish there were some cheap Z77 ITX boards still around because CEX does an I5-3570K for £115 or I5-2500K for £100.

Also I was thinking about water cooling due to the fact that the Corsair 250D has space for a H100, so I could either throw in a H100 (£50 refurb on scan) or throw in 2x H50s or something (1 for CPU, 1 for GPU). Or leave that entirely and have air flowing side to side. It seems really easy to cool in the 250D which is also why I am edging towards it.


Although the premium seems worth it; nice desk space with a little box running everything rather than a great big case (which I frequently kick when I turn my chair).


Thanks for your help; low end Haswell seems good, H87 (need 3 SATAs ). That should work out similar price to an AMD setup (ITX that is).

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

The Corsair 250D is quite large for a mini-ITX case.

Have you considered the mATX Silverstone TJ08-E or Silverstone SG09 which are a similar volume??

The ARMA series have traditionally run better on Intel CPUs rather than AMD ones even going back to the first one IIRC. They have also traditionally been very poorly optimised and need decent hardware to run on too.

[Biscuit]

If you are pairing a 1150 socket motherboard with a graphics card and are not bothered about overclocking, consider using a Xeon instead of an i5/i7

[mikeo01]

The Corsair 250D is quite large for a mini-ITX case.

Have you considered the mATX Silverstone TJ08-E or Silverstone SG09 which are a similar volume??

The ARMA series have traditionally run better on Intel CPUs rather than AMD ones even going back to the first one IIRC. They have also traditionally been very poorly optimised and need decent hardware to run on too.

Well I was mainly going by the look of the size from THIS image. It "seems" tiny but if it isn't I will have to consider something smaller. The SG09 is not bad but it looks much larger even though it isn't if only I could see it in person. The 250D and SG09 are only about 80mm taller than the Coolermaster Elite 130 that's why I didn't think it would be much.

Also yeah I know they are more optimised for Intel unfortunately primarily why I was considering it; one of my most played games really.

If you are pairing a 1150 socket motherboard with a graphics card and are not bothered about overclocking, consider using a Xeon instead of an i5/i7

I will consider a Xeon; always liked the look of them if I can find it cheaper than the alternative I5.


I think it all mainly comes down to "Can I get a Z77 equivalent cheaper". But I definitely want to go the ITX route; so if the 250D/Silverstone cases are actually big I will scrap them


I mean how would they size up to my current case? The Aerocool DS cube by looking at its dimensions looks practically the same size. The 250D looks tiny on that picture and the SG09 looks slightly bigger


I suppose "size" is kind of subjective; so I have been going by Youtube reviews to get an idea of them all.


EDIT: It isn't that big!
PIC and PIC.

[mikeo01]

So, out of this lot what would everyone think be the wisest choice?

MSI B85I / Asrock Z87E-ITX / MSI Z87I + £160 I5-4670K

OR

Asrock Z77E-ITX / Asrock B75M
/ Gigabyte B75N + £115 I5-3570K or £100 I5-2500K.

EDIT: I am being way to picky with this aren't I. I mean for example that MSI B85I paired with whatever I5/Xeon paired with a 7870/280X will be fine for anything.

[Biscuit]

I think it all mainly comes down to "Can I get a Z77 equivalent cheaper". But I definitely want to go the ITX route; so if the 250D/Silverstone cases are actually big I will scrap them


I mean how would they size up to my current case? The Aerocool DS cube by looking at its dimensions looks practically the same size. The 250D looks tiny on that picture and the SG09 looks slightly bigger

The best thing for you to do, is get some cardboard, a ruler and a decent knife, make a box the size of the dimensions and see how it looks. The only way you can get a true feeling of the size of something is, and how it will feel in the position you will use it in, is by doing this.

Given your clearly a tech head, or you wouldnt be here, im guessing you have plenty of old boxes kicking around

The 250D is basically a 30cm ruler in each dimension. That is pretty small BUT as far as ITX goes its actually quite big. The advantage here is the amount of options it keeps open with regards to cooling and graphics cards. This is one of the few ITX cases which requires minimal compromise IMO.

Its certainly what i have been looking at for my downsize, just cant quite bring myself to hit that 'buy' button at the moment

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

TBH,unless you are going for a smaller build,its a tad pointless IMHO to go for a larger mini-ITX case,when an mATX would do the job. You don't need to sacrifice RAM expansion or card expansion either. The TJ08 can take 13" graphics cards for example.

[Biscuit]

TBH,unless you are going for a smaller build,its a tad pointless IMHO to go for a larger mini-ITX case,when an mATX would do the job. You don't need to sacrifice RAM expansion or card expansion either. The TJ08 can take 13" graphics cards for example.

Cant fit a H100 though!

There are some mATX cases worth considering and i would be interested to see what you recommend that fits into the 'roughly 30cm allround' type case, but i like the 250D, its been well thought out for what people actually want/need and it gets good reviews.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Cant fit a H100 though!

There are some mATX cases worth considering and i would be interested to see what you recommend that fits into the 'roughly 30cm allround' type case, but i like the 250D, its been well thought out for what people actually want/need and it gets good reviews.

It can fit most of the other AIO water coolers,and mini-ITX motherboards do have their limits too. The whole point of mini-ITX is so the rigs are made as small as possible for easy transport.

Even my current mini-ITX system which uses a 19L case,is pretty large IMHO for a mini-ITX system and is about the limits of what I would tolerate,and I can get three HDDs and two SSDs into it. However,it only weighs 2.3KG though. I probably have been spoilt a bit by the Shuttles I have owned in the past.

The 250D and Prodigy are massive SFF cases by comparison.

However,it defeats the whole point of going for a tiny motherboard if you are using a massive case. The mini-ITX motherboards only have two RAM slots and there are no extra expansion slots. With a TJ08 you can even have dual graphics cards with a suitable mATX motherboard too:

http://techreport.com/r.x/2012_4_18_...afront-620.jpg