SCAN bad for RMA's?

[SiM]

I knew that you would know

For a PC to be out of action because of a motherboard, I would think less than 28 days would be inconvenient. It is something that is used everyday and is now part of our daily lives.

The board could be faulty at the time of sale in this case. If the chip was faulty at day 1, it doesn't mean it will blow on day 1, it could blow 11 months later... Just like an bubble in a car tyre - its going to blow someday
I guess the burden of proof go to the manufacturer to show that this wasn't the case... which is what is happening

[Saracen]

Originally Posted by firsttimebuyer

only 1 chip was harmed, everything else was ok, so there was not a bunch of stuff taken out.

It did not have a fan connected to the header next to it. (i think its a voltage regulator for that fan header that blew, a fan connected to the header will still work but only at low speed/dim LED).

No screw drivers or anything else were put anywhere near it. I am not in the habit of putting screw drivers into my case whilst playing games, surfing the web.

The PSU thing seems false as it still seems to be working with my old P4 motherboard.
.....

I did stress that I wasn't talking about your case, though. It's why I said

I am NOT suggesting that this has happened in this case. Merely that it can.

My post was aimed at not_my_ip, who asked ....

But in what light burnt chip can be counted as physical damage? Are you suggesting that fisrttimebuyer burn it himself using lighter or matches?

My comments were merely explaining how.

I have no reason to suppose you do put screwdrivers into your case, or that you're telling anything other than the absolute and complete truth. But consider it from a retailer's perspective. You may be perfectly truthful, reasonable and honourable, and I've no reason to suppose otherwise. But not all customers are.

I was standing in a shop some years ago when a customer was moaning about a chip that wouldn't work. The assistant was asking what the problems were and the customer said it was just dead. Had refused to work when first installed.The assistant had seen what the problem was after a quick glance, and so had I, just by being stood about 6 feet away while he looked. He asked the customer how he'd installed it, including gently probing about chip orientation in the socket, and it was painfully clear that the customer hadn't got a clue what he was talking about, or that the chip only fitted in the socket in one of the four possible orientations. What had happened was quite clear to everyone but the customer, but even having had it explained to him and having been shown the motherboard slot and the bent pins on the chip, he was adamant it wasn't his fault, saying the shot should have explained how to fit the part. That chip was ruined by customer error, and having lost out on a couple of hundred quid for the chip, the customer naturally wasn't happy. I stood there and watched him try flannel, bullpoop, then outright lies and finally physical threats. It ended with two police officers escorting him off the premises and advising that if he came back and created another scene, he'd be arrested.

Retailers have to deal with all sorts. Not everybody knows what they're doing, and not everybody will tell the truth about what they've done, either. I don't work in retail, and never have. But I've got friends that have run retail businesses, and some of the stories they tell of what people try on are frankly astonishing.

It's a fact of life for any retailer. They then have to decide what to do if they're unsure of what's happened. They can, and sometimes do, just give the customer what they want for the sake of goods relations, and write it off. Or, sometimes, they take a stand. And sometimes, they just don't know and want a second opinion.

Also, you'll sometimes find that retailers have arrangements with some manufacturers where they act as a kind of clearing house for manufacturer warranties. If goods come back in with certain types of problems, the manufacturer has authorised the retailer to replace the product on behalf of the manufacturer. But, of course, if that's the case and a given problem is outside the normal scope of that arrangement, then if the retailer replaces under the warranty and gets it wrong, the manufacturer can decline to compensate them. If, in such a case, the buyer's Sale of Goods Act rights entitle them to a refund/repair etc, then the seller would have to replace it anyway. But there will be occasions when you have no rights under the Sale of Goods Act (if it wasn't a fault inherent at time of sale), but it might still be covered by manufacturer warranty. Under such conditions, if the retailer isn't sure, they're going to want clearance from the manufacturer.

Again, firsttimebuyer, I'm not saying any of this is what's going on here, because I've no idea if Scan operate that kind of backstop arrangement for manufacturers. But it might be that it's a Sale of Goods Act rejection, but perhaps a manufacturer claim but it needs approval to replace.

One thing to bear in mind in relation to the Sale of Goods Act is that if you are claiming that the board is faulty (as it seems you are), and if the board is more than 6 months old from date of purchase (and it is), then the Sale of Goods Act requires that YOU be able to PROVE the fault was inherent at the time of supply. If it isn't, then you have no right to a refund under the SoGA, and after 6 months, the presumption by statute is that the fault wasn't inherent, unless you can prove it was.

So ..... it might be that the situation isn't covered by Scan's warranty, isn't covered by SoGA but might be covered by manufacturer warranty. In which case, what Scan are doing would be consistent with doing their best for you.

Of course, if Scan were to say it wasn't an inherent fault and you were to say it was, then ultimately, it'd come down to a court deciding. The same would apply if you insisted their warranty covered you and they insisted it didn't.

But until and if Scan comment on any of this, it's all just general speculation. So the best thing, in my view, is to just wait to see what they have to say.

[Saracen]

Originally Posted by SiM

I knew that you would know

For a PC to be out of action because of a motherboard, I would think less than 28 days would be inconvenient. It is something that is used everyday and is now part of our daily lives.

The board could be faulty at the time of sale in this case. If the chip was faulty at day 1, it doesn't mean it will blow on day 1, it could blow 11 months later... Just like an bubble in a car tyre - its going to blow someday
I guess the burden of proof go to the manufacturer to show that this wasn't the case... which is what is happening

Oh, it's absolutely the case that faults can be inherent at day one and not show for some time. That's the inherent bit. A faulty component could work for a while, then blow. I've had that happen.

But if a part waits a significant time, then blows, did it blow because it was faulty at the time of sale, or because of some external factor? For instance, with that PSU of mine that blew, was it a PSU fault, or was it a mains surge that blew it, and that that's what caused the damage? If it was a main surge, by the way, then it also managed to get past my online UPS without damaging that in any way. But if I hadn't had a UPS?

But with your car tyre bubble problem, what caused the bubble? A problem inherent in the tyre, or had it been curbed, or got a cut in it from a piece of glass in the road? And, if it's more than 6 months old, can you prove it one way or the other?

Part of the problem is that the SoGA, and indeed, most legislation, is phrased in deliberately vague ways precisely to try to cover all sorts of situations that can't be predicted and defined in detail in advance. For instance, when you buy something, you have a "reasonable" period to inspect the goods (unless you've "accepted" them in some other explicit way) and to reject them if they don't conform to contract. That "reasonable" period isn't defined, but will, generally, be pretty short. It's rarely going to more than about a month, and often, a lot less than that.

Suppose you buy a pen? How long does it take to check if it conforms to contract? 5 seconds?

But suppose you bought snow skis in May. It might be next winter before you got to try them out and if the fault was such that you couldn't detect it short of trying them, is a month "reasonable"?

And suppose you bought those skis in November a week before your skiing trip, but were hurt in a car accident on the way home from the shop and spent a couple of months in hospital. Is having to check them out within a month reasonable then? Because there'd be no way you realistically could check them from your hospital bed.

The theme that crops up again and again, especially in civil disputes like SoGA cases, is that both parties are expected to be "reasonable". What "reasonable" means depends on circumstances. It might be reasonable for a repair of a camera to take three weeks, but is it still reasonable if the shop knew when they sold it that I was taking it on a 3 month world cruise, leaving next weekend, and that that was why it was bought? i.e. that was the purpose for which it was bought. If it isn't suitable for that purpose or of satisfactory quality, is it "reasonable" to expect a repair to take three weeks, or to replace it, or to refund so I can buy one elsewhere .... or perhaps to lend me a suitable model while mine was being fixed?

A court might well decide three weeks wasn't reasonable for a repair in those circumstances, but it might well become reasonable when they offered a suitable loaner.

One option for getting round a lengthy delay in sorting out a problem with faulty goods might be a temporary loan of as stand-in, but it clearly isn't always appropriate. I had a lengthy argument with a garage about what loan car I was getting when my car had to go in for a couple of days for warranty work to be done for the third time. They thought a tiny little Suzuki run-about was a suitable alternative for my 4 month old M3. I didn't, as it wasn't suitable for a trip I had the next day, or the clients I was going to meet. If I'd wanted a Suzuki, I'd have bought one, not the M3. They said they didn't have anything else on their loan fleet. I suggested the Sales Director's M5.

[wesleyaldred]

Having looked into this it is simply being returned to Asus for a 2nd opinion, please sign the disclaimer and we can then forward the item on, as the longer it takes us to get the signed form back the longer the whole process is going to take.

Wesley

[firsttimebuyer]

I guess SCAN thinks all its customers are criminals. Where is innocent until proven otherwise.

The reason they are so desperate to get a "2nd opinion" from ASUS is so they can wipe their hands of it, otherwise they would you not just send it and not have me sign a form saying that i agree something wrong was done and say i am fine that they will no longer be resposible for it. They dont care if the chip looks like it may have been "damaged" deliberately or not, the fact is its damage, that gives them an out to deal personally on an 11month old motherboard so they are going to take it, even though that item supposedly has an 36 Return to Base.

Well ok wesley, i will play ball, i have no other option, but please dont make it out to be that your doing my a favour, SCAN is covering its on rear end, thats all and thats all you ever seem to do. Its not like this is a one off.

You may have legions of people who think your great because you can put a box in a City Link van and get it to them the next day but to be honest any of the online retailers can do the same at reasonable prices, so really the deciding factor is how you deal with problems and to me SCAN just looks for ways out. If anyone asks i will let them know exactly how i have been treated, they might not even have to ask now.

The thing about SCAN is they seem to be a "Boy's Club", if one makes a decision, none of the others will over turn it. Maybe they are great mates i dont know, but thats not how it should work in a business.

Oh Wesley can i please have assurances that my motherboard would come back covered in Thermal Paste? I know how you guys are sometimes. I will post a pic this time if anything is wrong with the motherboard you send me back.

To be honest the things i am most upset about is the fact that i got an email stating that i had gone to the replacement/ credit stage and then boom a few hours later this is over turned, did the guy who has to finally authorise this say "i am not replacing that, we could easily pan this off to ASUS". The Rejected email makes me feel like i have done something wrong, why do you need to "reject" it if you just want a second opinion or this is just standard procedure? The attitude also of most of the people who work for SCAN comes across bad also, i may be in the wrong but do you need to act like an a-hole because of it, are you not a professional business?

lets hope nothing else from SCAN needs to go back for RMA, i really hope i never have to deal with them again. To be honest if something did break i would not even bother now as i know they would just try and worm out of replacing it. Good luck to those of you who are trying to RMA something thats older than 30 days, hopefully they cant find anything so they can get out of it, they maybe have department for this, like USA's Medicare.

[wesleyaldred]

Originally Posted by firsttimebuyer

I guess SCAN thinks all its customers are criminals. Where is innocent until proven otherwise.

No we don't.

Originally Posted by firsttimebuyer

The reason they are so desperate to get a "2nd opinion" from ASUS is so they can wipe their hands of it, otherwise they would you not just send it and not have me sign a form saying that i agree something wrong was done and say i am fine that they will no longer be resposible for it. They dont care if the chip looks like it may have been "damaged" deliberately or not, the fact is its damage, that gives them an out to deal personally on an 11month old motherboard so they are going to take it, even though that item supposedly has an 36 Return to Base.

If it was a case of simply wanting to "wipe our hands of it" as you put it, then there would be no need to return the item to Asus would there, it would simply be sent back to yourself.

Originally Posted by firsttimebuyer

Well ok wesley, i will play ball, i have no other option, but please dont make it out to be that your doing my a favour, SCAN is covering its on rear end, thats all and thats all you ever seem to do. Its not like this is a one off.

Of course as would any business when the full Technical facts of the matter cannot be determined without seeking a 2nd opinion.

Originally Posted by firsttimebuyer

You may have legions of people who think your great because you can put a box in a City Link van and get it to them the next day but to be honest any of the online retailers can do the same at reasonable prices, so really the deciding factor is how you deal with problems and to me SCAN just looks for ways out. If anyone asks i will let them know exactly how i have been treated, they might not even have to ask now.

Of course the deciding factor is the full package of sales & service, not just who can ship items the quickest.

Originally Posted by firsttimebuyer

The thing about SCAN is they seem to be a "Boy's Club", if one makes a decision, none of the others will over turn it. Maybe they are great mates i dont know, but thats not how it should work in a business.

It's not how a business works and it's also not how Scan works.

Originally Posted by firsttimebuyer

Oh Wesley can i please have assurances that my motherboard would come back covered in Thermal Paste? I know how you guys are sometimes. I will post a pic this time if anything is wrong with the motherboard you send me back.

I will not even dignify this paragraph with a responce at all.

[firsttimebuyer]

you would say that though wouldnt you

You could have just left me looking like a sore loser but the usual SCAN arrogance shines through, you must get the last word and you must prove all my points wrong.

As for the thing about the motherboard being covered in paste, why not answer that? because you dont have an answer, how about "We usually leave thermal goop all over the CPU's we return, it was nothing personal", unless you could not tell that the Thermal Paste thing was refering to the time that i was sent the CPU, that i took the time to clean and send back to SCAN was sent back to me not just with Thermal Paste on it but totally covered in the stuff, if that went over your head then i guess thats fair enough.

I bet you would love just to tell me now your not even going to send it back to ASUS for me but then that would just be childish wouldnt it (or maybe you are legally obligated to, otherwise i would have thought thats exactly what you would do?)

On a serious note though, you really should think about changing some of your policies, so some of your customers dont feel persecuted, all this could have been avioded with a bit of tact, not a big sign saying "REJECTED" and please fill out this form admitting you have done something wrong so SCAN is no longer legally obligated to help you. Maybe think about sending out an actual hand typed email explaining things and not just rely on those automated emails, it might make SCAN seem a bit friendlier (i know you cant do this all the time, but on odd occasions when the circumstances dont follow the usual linear paths), i dont see why the customer should always have to badger you for some real info on whats going on, try just giving it to them sometimes.

You guys also need to calm down, all of you seem far to eager to get involved in a petty squabbling match (not what i intended but thats what i got but i guess i did ask for it by saying something bad about SCAN), why is that? is it because you can all hide behind phones and computer screens? i assume you dont ever deal directly with the consumer face to face like the good old days?

Anyway you dont have to worry about me going out my way to put SCAN down, i think i have used up enough energy on SCAN, time to move on, but if someone does ask me what i think of SCAN i will say "i dont like them very much, they seem a bit unwilling to help with RMA's but they can deliver the next day!!!". I will let them decide.

[wesleyaldred]

I most certainly would not like to tell you "we are not even going to return the item to Asus", as you have stated that would be childish and not the reactions of a professional organisation now would it.

I understood your comment in relation to the motherboard and thermal paste to be a facetious comment, hence I choose not to reply.

[rabbid]

" i assume you dont ever deal directly with the consumer face to face like the good old days?"

You could return the board to the returns counter in the shop in Bolton and then see the sales and Q-collect staff as well? Of course it might be far away from where you live but it is possible to see them face to face.
Unless this has changed I havent been there for a while, since before they remodelled.

[Clanger]

I'm confused here.

Scan reject RMA on the basis of damage. They then require the customer to sign a disclaimer acknowledging that they no longer have the warranty that was part of the original contract - and this is so Scan can send it to the manufacturer for a second opinion? Furthermore, this disclaimer is described by Scan thus:


"...the disclaimer is a standard form that needs to be completed for any item that needs to be returned to the supplier/manufacturer."

So Scan always required customer's to acknowledge they have no warranty before a product is returned to the manufacturer? But on the other hand, this disclaimer also states Scan is going beyond the normal call of duty in this case?

Anyone else make sense of this?

In relation to the Sale of Goods act. It's worth pointing out that after the initial 6 months - where the burden of proof is with a seller to show goods weren't faulty from the start - after that, it is still possible that a judge may agree that the goods were faulty from the start by virtue of not being of "satisfactory quality" e.g. durability, up to a period of 6 years.

Indeed, I'd argue that Apple are taking the you-know-what, in charging premium prices for supposedly superior quality computers, but require you pay hundreds of pounds to get more than a 1 year warranty. I think a judge might well conclude more than 1 years durability could be reasonably expected in these circumstances.

[firsttimebuyer]

Originally Posted by rabbid

" i assume you dont ever deal directly with the consumer face to face like the good old days?"

You could return the board to the returns counter in the shop in Bolton and then see the sales and Q-collect staff as well? Of course it might be far away from where you live but it is possible to see them face to face.
Unless this has changed I havent been there for a while, since before they remodelled.

ah did not know this, wonder if its the same guys, the seem to have lost that "caring" touch like the old days, the customer is always right (i know they are not but the staff did not let the customer know they thought that). Maybe its just the United Kingdom in general, the standards seem to be slipping, i guess as a society we are becoming less caring.

I thought i had hit on some philosophical gold nugget with that obsevation, we are become more detached from our fellow man because we dont spend the same time interacting with them face to face but i guess i am just full of **it

[firsttimebuyer]

bah who cares they wont change their minds, just wasting more energy. Thanks for the support though, or atleast not trying to latch on to the idea i am some sort of screwdriver wielding maniac as some of the earlier posts pointed out was, atleast in theory, possible.

Sorry i have to post this to get something across

I get this email at 10.29 am

"RMA ****** Status Notification - Awaiting Replacement / Credit"

I am on cloud 9, wow, SCAN's doing the right thing and they dont even have to send it back to the manufacturer, this is going to help alot, not as much down time (i have put together some old parts to be able to send emails but its not an ideal situation)

i then get this email at 2.04 pm, 3 and a half hours later (all that time thinking the issue had been resolved, or i was atleast not expecting this)

RMA ****** Status Notification - Rejected

Lets just say i felt really bummed out and confused. I sent 2 emails to SCAN, as i forgot to ask all the questions i needed answered in the first email, they only answered one and not the one that actually explained what was going on, just some excuses and an apology if i personally found the REJECTED email "harsh".

I guess this is what happens when companies use those rubbish "Automated Services", possibly one of the worst inventions ever but i guess it will save them a few bucks each year, even if i does offend a few customers here and there.

Anyway thats my last word, comment on this matter, SCAN wont budge or even admit they did things the wrong way, i am wrong and thats final. I just hope this is left here as a record of what can happen when you deal with SCAN.

[TAKTAK]

erm... i can't see the problem in SCAN wanting to sent the board to ASUS 'for a second opinion'

for example: if you went to the doctor and s/he told you that you had glandular fever, and you decided to go for a second opinion, and the second opinion told you that you actually just had a cold... what would you make of it? it's basically the same situation...

TBH ASUS are going to know ALOT more about the board and problems that the boards have had that SCAN ever will... ASUS make the blooming things, so logically it is better for SCAN to see what the people who made the board think...

afterall, it could be a common problem that ASUS have seen, and SCAN sending them the board for a second opinion may raise that there is a QC issue with a certain batch...

(unless i have skim read wrong... but IMHO SCAN ARE just trying to help you... they could reject the board as damaged by user [even if it isn't, as there isn't really much proof either way....], but they are referring the matter to those who make the board for there overriding opinion on a product that they have the duty of manufacturing......)

[rabbid]

"as some sort of screwdriver weidling maniac"

Great!

Well I hope some resolution for all is found, have a nice weekend.

[firsttimebuyer]

Originally Posted by TAKTAK

erm... i can't see the problem in SCAN wanting to sent the board to

(unless i have skim read wrong... but IMHO SCAN ARE just trying to help you... they could reject the board as damaged by user [even if it isn't, as there isn't really much proof either way....], but they are referring the matter to those who make the board for there overriding opinion on a product that they have the duty of manufacturing......)

They are rejecting it as damaged, i need to sign a document saying i agree with this, basically they are kind of blackmailing me, sign this or we wont send it to ASUS.

Anyway some agree, some wont, some will miss the point, its all valid.

Sorry got suckered in again, i guess i feel on the defensive, it doesnt feel to me like SCAN are just trying to help or if they are i wouldnt like to be on the receiving end when they are being unhelpful.

I am now going to put on a pair of mittens and hopefully not get the urge to 1 finger type with my thumb.

and that document is in the mail, hopefully ASUS does the right thing and doesnt take too long to do it.

[Saracen]

Originally Posted by firsttimebuyer

bah who cares they wont change their minds, just wasting more energy. Thanks for the support though, or atleast not trying to paint me as some sort of screwdriver wielding maniac like some of the earlier posters.

Now you are just coming across as having a moan for the sake of it.

That was not "some other posters". It was one, and that was me.

That original post did NOT paint you as a screwdriver-wielding maniac. Firstly, it referred to someone who slipped. I've seen experienced engineers do it by taking short cuts they shouldn't have taken.

Secondly, that original post specified VERY clearly that it wasn't referring to you. It quoted someone else that asked a question about burnt chips, and answered THEM.

And thirdly, you've alleged that before and had it explained to you that it wasn't about you.

So if you are going to misrepresent that and keep making that accusation, it hardly gives Scan or anyone else reading this any comfort that you're telling the truth about anything else.

So stop misrepresenting what a forum Admin said or I'll remove your account. You can then deal with Scan in your own way off of Hexus. You won't get another warning.