Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 16 of 58

Thread: Tim Sweeney: Devs must oppose Microsoft Windows 10 UWP

  1. #1
    HEXUS.admin
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    31,709
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked
    2,073 times in 719 posts

    Tim Sweeney: Devs must oppose Microsoft Windows 10 UWP

    Epic Games co-founder doesn't like how the Universal Windows Platform is shaping up.
    Read more.

  2. #2
    Registered+
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    64
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked
    5 times in 5 posts

    Re: Tim Sweeney: Devs must oppose Microsoft Windows 10 UWP

    No one should sell their apps or games or whatever there. There is NO reason at all to do it. You can still sell the games in retailers, their own websites and services and parties like GoG.com and others.

  3. #3
    Registered+
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    79
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked
    1 time in 1 post
    • maxp779's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asrock Extreme 3 Gen 3
      • CPU:
      • 2600k
      • Memory:
      • 8GB DDR3
      • Storage:
      • 500GB HDD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • HD5850
      • PSU:
      • Cooler Master Silent Pro M 600w
      • Case:
      • Antec 902
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 7 x64
      • Monitor(s):
      • Viewsonic VX2260WM 22" 1080p
      • Internet:
      • 8MB

    Re: Tim Sweeney: Devs must oppose Microsoft Windows 10 UWP

    Stuff like this makes me want vulkan to take off even more.

    I would move to Linux in a heartbeat if I had an nvidia graphics card or AMD sorted out their openGL performance (unlikely considering theyre probably focusing on vulkan now).

    Need my world of warships... need my armored warfare I can run everything else (visual studio) in a VM.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    3,526
    Thanks
    504
    Thanked
    468 times in 326 posts

    Re: Tim Sweeney: Devs must oppose Microsoft Windows 10 UWP

    Are Sweeney's protestations made genuinely on behalf of the Windows games and app developers out there, or simply sour grapes over the Windows Store fees? Please let us know your thoughts, in the comments section below.
    If this was sour grapes then Sweeney's protestations could have, would have been directed at all the stores that take a cut like Steam Origin, and GOG.

    Sweeney is just the latest developer to join a growing list of people that can see the potential threat of Windows 10 and its UWP Store, Gabe Newell saw the dangers along with many of us mere mortals that get accused of being tin foil hat wearers for voicing concerns, how much longer are Microsoft going to offer support for win32 binaries, are win32 binaries going to die to thunderous applause when Microsoft say it's going to end support because of X, Y, Z.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,385
    Thanks
    181
    Thanked
    304 times in 221 posts

    Re: Tim Sweeney: Devs must oppose Microsoft Windows 10 UWP

    Hmm...unification...allowing a developer to create one application that could potentially fully capably run on 6 platforms giving you 6 revenue streams without you have to recompile and test your application 6 times?

    Goodness me it's almost like it's socialism and we all know socialism is bad because it helps us help them at a paid service.

    The big bad skydows is taking over people, get out your shotguns and plasma rifles.
    Last edited by scaryjim; 04-03-2016 at 03:47 PM. Reason: language

  6. #6
    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Gateshead
    Posts
    15,196
    Thanks
    1,231
    Thanked
    2,291 times in 1,874 posts
    • scaryjim's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Dell Inspiron
      • CPU:
      • Core i5 8250U
      • Memory:
      • 2x 4GB DDR4 2666
      • Storage:
      • 128GB M.2 SSD + 1TB HDD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Radeon R5 230
      • PSU:
      • Battery/Dell brick
      • Case:
      • Dell Inspiron 5570
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10
      • Monitor(s):
      • 15" 1080p laptop panel

    Re: Tim Sweeney: Devs must oppose Microsoft Windows 10 UWP

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    If this was sour grapes then Sweeney's protestations could have, would have been directed at all the stores that take a cut like Steam Origin, and GOG.
    Yet it's interesting how he doesn't rail against Apple's walled garden...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tabbykatze View Post
    Goodness me it's almost like it's socialism...
    1) please don't swear: not even with starred out letters or words. There's usually some way to express yourself without resorting to profanity...

    2) don't think MS are doing this for anyone else's benefit. This way they tie people into their ecosystem and make money out of it. The same program can run on six different devices? That's six different markets MS can sell that program in. And that isn't socialism, not by any stretch of the imagination.

  7. #7
    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    17,168
    Thanks
    803
    Thanked
    2,152 times in 1,408 posts

    Re: Tim Sweeney: Devs must oppose Microsoft Windows 10 UWP

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    Yet it's interesting how he doesn't rail against Apple's walled garden...
    Absolutely, just like Gabe with Steam, this is complaints about competition, mostly because their competition can't offer the run on Xbox, Tablet, PC, Phone etc. that UWP could theoretically offer.
    throw new ArgumentException (String, String, Exception)

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,385
    Thanks
    181
    Thanked
    304 times in 221 posts

    Re: Tim Sweeney: Devs must oppose Microsoft Windows 10 UWP

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    2) don't think MS are doing this for anyone else's benefit. This way they tie people into their ecosystem and make money out of it. The same program can run on six different devices? That's six different markets MS can sell that program in. And that isn't socialism, not by any stretch of the imagination.
    Well it's definitely not completely capitalism that's for sure.

    Again I just can't help but think that having a holistic ecosystem is better than a fragmented ecosystem in any environment. Why are people against a 1 for all system if it's provided by Microsoft when you have Apple and Google doing similar/same.

    Are Microsoft wanting to terminate Win32 since it's impacting their movement forwards in technological and software development? Probably. Are they wanting to terminate it to stick it to their goats and sheep who use their products? Could be. Are they doing it because it's the next step in making a next generation OS that can move forwards with the integrated technology of tomorrow. Yes.

  9. #9
    Anthropomorphic Personification shaithis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    The Last Aerie
    Posts
    10,857
    Thanks
    645
    Thanked
    872 times in 736 posts
    • shaithis's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus P8Z77 WS
      • CPU:
      • i7 3770k @ 4.5GHz
      • Memory:
      • 32GB HyperX 1866
      • Storage:
      • Lots!
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Sapphire Fury X
      • PSU:
      • Corsair HX850
      • Case:
      • Corsair 600T (White)
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10 x64
      • Monitor(s):
      • 2 x Dell 3007
      • Internet:
      • Zen 80Mb Fibre

    Re: Tim Sweeney: Devs must oppose Microsoft Windows 10 UWP

    Seems like a storm-in-a-teacup again......and a bit sensationalist with the wording.

    No one has to release games or apps on UWP. There are plenty of other ways to deploy your software....in fact many would argue that there are already too many ways!
    Main PC: Asus Rampage IV Extreme / 3960X@4.5GHz / Antec H1200 Pro / 32GB DDR3-1866 Quad Channel / Sapphire Fury X / Areca 1680 / 850W EVGA SuperNOVA Gold 2 / Corsair 600T / 2x Dell 3007 / 4 x 250GB SSD + 2 x 80GB SSD / 4 x 1TB HDD (RAID 10) / Windows 10 Pro, Yosemite & Ubuntu
    HTPC: AsRock Z77 Pro 4 / 3770K@4.2GHz / 24GB / GTX 1080 / SST-LC20 / Antec TP-550 / Hisense 65k5510 4K TV / HTC Vive / 2 x 240GB SSD + 12TB HDD Space / Race Seat / Logitech G29 / Win 10 Pro
    HTPC2: Asus AM1I-A / 5150 / 4GB / Corsair Force 3 240GB / Silverstone SST-ML05B + ST30SF / Samsung UE60H6200 TV / Windows 10 Pro
    Spare/Loaner: Gigabyte EX58-UD5 / i950 / 12GB / HD7870 / Corsair 300R / Silverpower 700W modular
    NAS 1: HP N40L / 12GB ECC RAM / 2 x 3TB Arrays || NAS 2: Dell PowerEdge T110 II / 24GB ECC RAM / 2 x 3TB Hybrid arrays || Network:Buffalo WZR-1166DHP w/DD-WRT + HP ProCurve 1800-24G
    Laptop: Dell Precision 5510 Printer: HP CP1515n || Phone: Huawei P30 || Other: Samsung Galaxy Tab 4 Pro 10.1 CM14 / Playstation 4 + G29 + 2TB Hybrid drive

  10. #10
    Senior Member jag272's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    529
    Thanks
    14
    Thanked
    31 times in 30 posts
    • jag272's system
      • Motherboard:
      • MSI Z87-G43
      • CPU:
      • i5 4670k
      • Memory:
      • 1x8GB XMS3 1600Mhz CL11
      • Storage:
      • 1x 1TB WD Blue
      • Graphics card(s):
      • MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming
      • PSU:
      • XFX TS 550W Core
      • Case:
      • Corsair Carbide 300R
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit
      • Monitor(s):
      • Samsung SyncMaster 943NW

    Re: Tim Sweeney: Devs must oppose Microsoft Windows 10 UWP

    I grow more worried about Microsoft's direction which each new bit of info we hear it seems. UWP seems very concerning, and its even more concerning that some of the MS store nonsense is actually part of DX12 itself.

    The idea of being able to play xbox exclusives like Halo on pc (though I worry its an excuse for a lazy port) interests me, but the cost to PC seems far too great currently. It seems to me they want PC to fill the role of a more powerful XBox. A system they have full control over, pushing their MS Store as heavily as they can. Just went and read up on some of the more recent news about DX12 and the MS Store and such on the big pcper article, and its very concerning indeed.

    A good bit of backlash is certainly what we need right now. Fair enough if Microsoft wants a piece of the pie, but it seems like they'd quite happily take the whole pie. Much as I don't even like the current DRM clients we have going, I wouldn't mind Microsoft creating a new GFWL so long as it followed the good practices of the other clients, but in typical Microsoft fashion theyre doing quite the opposite.

    Edit: As others have said though, theres currently no reason what so ever to use the store, especially for dedicated pc titles, and I think even if the store gains prominence there will be "proper" pc releases and then a separate multiplatform release, for say Halo and such. The problem is that theres the potential there for Microsoft to abuse it in future, and it's the "what if the store does gain prominence" that is most concerning.
    Last edited by jag272; 04-03-2016 at 04:44 PM.

  11. #11
    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Gateshead
    Posts
    15,196
    Thanks
    1,231
    Thanked
    2,291 times in 1,874 posts
    • scaryjim's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Dell Inspiron
      • CPU:
      • Core i5 8250U
      • Memory:
      • 2x 4GB DDR4 2666
      • Storage:
      • 128GB M.2 SSD + 1TB HDD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Radeon R5 230
      • PSU:
      • Battery/Dell brick
      • Case:
      • Dell Inspiron 5570
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10
      • Monitor(s):
      • 15" 1080p laptop panel

    Re: Tim Sweeney: Devs must oppose Microsoft Windows 10 UWP

    Quote Originally Posted by jag272 View Post
    ... A good bit of backlash is certainly what we need right now. ....
    I'm not entirely sure I agree with this sentiment, but even if it is, I don't think the correct means of providing that backlash is to say "Wah wah, it's not fair, Microsoft are developing Windows how they want it to be, someone make them stoooop!" (which is, as far as I can see it, what Sweeney's argument amounts to). Surely the answer to someone trying to stifle competition is to develop a competitive alternative product.

    Now, if only there was some other desktop x86-compatible OS that's been around for a couple of decades so has a very mature codebase, that lots of people want to use, and has all the hooks there to be the base of a great gaming system if only enough commercial developers would back it to succeed....

  12. #12
    Senior Member jag272's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    529
    Thanks
    14
    Thanked
    31 times in 30 posts
    • jag272's system
      • Motherboard:
      • MSI Z87-G43
      • CPU:
      • i5 4670k
      • Memory:
      • 1x8GB XMS3 1600Mhz CL11
      • Storage:
      • 1x 1TB WD Blue
      • Graphics card(s):
      • MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming
      • PSU:
      • XFX TS 550W Core
      • Case:
      • Corsair Carbide 300R
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit
      • Monitor(s):
      • Samsung SyncMaster 943NW

    Re: Tim Sweeney: Devs must oppose Microsoft Windows 10 UWP

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    I'm not entirely sure I agree with this sentiment, but even if it is, I don't think the correct means of providing that backlash is to say "Wah wah, it's not fair, Microsoft are developing Windows how they want it to be, someone make them stoooop!" (which is, as far as I can see it, what Sweeney's argument amounts to). Surely the answer to someone trying to stifle competition is to develop a competitive alternative product.

    Now, if only there was some other desktop x86-compatible OS that's been around for a couple of decades so has a very mature codebase, that lots of people want to use, and has all the hooks there to be the base of a great gaming system if only enough commercial developers would back it to succeed....
    Funnily enough, someone mentioned this to Sweeney on twitter but the response is unfortunately not what you might hope for. Not to say other major players aren't considering it though.
    https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/s...39920447565824

    And in regards to competition, just my view but competition doesn't really seem to bother Microsoft. They kept GFWL running long after it should have died off, and were actively releasing new games on the service regardless for a while, until eventually they conceded and left current games running on it while not releasing new ones on the service and eventually killing it.

    It's entirely possible the store in fact won't kick off at all, since it has very little unique to offer, and in fact some things to lose, aside from the gain of Xbox titles. I just think its a little underhanded that some of the changes MS wished to make for their "app store" versions of the games were also followed through into DX12. The idea of the game itself being sandboxed for example but allowing multiple layers to overlay each other has both good and bad points. Bad in that it can (and by the sounds of it already has) broken applications such as MSI Afterburner, FRAPS, GeForce Experience etc interacting with games is certainly a loss, the "forced" vsync I also personally find to be a loss, though Nvidia drivers have apparently worked around it already. On the other hand the suggestions I've heard of say, having the game's HUD on a different layer, rendered at a lower framerate so the game itself has more power to play with seems like a good idea.

    It really depends on how MS choose to play with these new powers theyre granting themselves. In theory as you say, there is a viable competitor out there if the industry supports it, so Microsoft shouldn't be able to go too wild without risking PR disaster.

    I'm all for the unification aspect of UWP, some of the other changes from Microsoft I don't agree with however. Some of it will be a case of adapting with time for the better, some will be genuine changes for the worse.
    Last edited by jag272; 04-03-2016 at 04:41 PM.

  13. #13
    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Gateshead
    Posts
    15,196
    Thanks
    1,231
    Thanked
    2,291 times in 1,874 posts
    • scaryjim's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Dell Inspiron
      • CPU:
      • Core i5 8250U
      • Memory:
      • 2x 4GB DDR4 2666
      • Storage:
      • 128GB M.2 SSD + 1TB HDD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Radeon R5 230
      • PSU:
      • Battery/Dell brick
      • Case:
      • Dell Inspiron 5570
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10
      • Monitor(s):
      • 15" 1080p laptop panel

    Re: Tim Sweeney: Devs must oppose Microsoft Windows 10 UWP

    Quote Originally Posted by jag272 View Post
    Funnily enough, someone mentioned this to Sweeney on twitter but the response is unfortunately not what you might hope for. Not to say other major players aren't considering it though.
    https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/s...39920447565824
    OMG, that analogy is SO BAD it's not even funny. MS is changing its way of doing things. There is no invasion. I ... just ...

    In a better, and more topical, analogy, focusing on linux would be more like saying "If Trump gets elected I'm moving to Canada". Hm.

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Kent
    Posts
    323
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked
    27 times in 18 posts
    • Brian224's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Gigabyte GA-Z68AP-D3
      • CPU:
      • Intel Core i5-2500K
      • Memory:
      • 8GB (2x4GB) Corsair Vengeance
      • Storage:
      • Samsung 840 SSD 120GB, Seagate 2TB HDD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • GTX760 4GB
      • PSU:
      • 650W EZCool Silent
      • Case:
      • Corsair Graphite 230T
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 8.1 Professional 64-bit
      • Monitor(s):
      • 3 x Acer G226HQLBbd
      • Internet:
      • 30 Mb cable (Virgin Media)

    Re: Tim Sweeney: Devs must oppose Microsoft Windows 10 UWP

    I don't understand the fuss over UWP sideloading being off by default. If a user isn't competent to change the settings to allow it, are they competent to decide which programs they can safely load to their phone or tablet? Considering the stick MS get over security, it seems a sensible and cautious idea.

  15. #15
    Admin (Ret'd)
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    18,481
    Thanks
    1,016
    Thanked
    3,208 times in 2,281 posts

    Re: Tim Sweeney: Devs must oppose Microsoft Windows 10 UWP

    I'm a bit conflicted over this. On the one hand, it does rather come across as sour grapes over conflicting vested interests. On the other hand, it does fit perfectly with what concerns me most about MS.

    Quote Originally Posted by jag272 View Post
    I grow more worried about Microsoft's direction which each new bit of info we hear it seems. UWP seems very concerning, and its even more concerning that some of the MS store nonsense is actually part of DX12 itself.

    .....

    A good bit of backlash is certainly what we need right now. Fair enough if Microsoft wants a piece of the pie, but it seems like they'd quite happily take the whole pie.
    Well, exactly.

    MS started ringing warning bells with me when they took the decision on the release of Win8 to try to force users into the MUI mindset and interface. At the time, I kept saying that that, and other moves like always-on, always-connected, always-listening Kinect in XB360, were indicative of what appeared to be a direction of travel, that MS appeared to have radically changed objectives, and were on a path, the direction of which I didn't like.

    And at that time, it won't come as any surprise to regulars to be reminded that I didn't like the UI changes one bit. Part of that was the Start button farago, and lots of comments at that time couldn't see what the fuss was about. As I kept saying, it was more about the mindset which lead MS to "force" users to their new UI mindset, for THEIR reasons, that being cross-platform marketing.

    Since then, one thing after another reinforces my view that what really stinks, and by 'eck it really pongs like concentrated essence of untreated sewage, is that apparent "direction", which is about locking down, and locking in, users to the MS ecosystem.

    Perhaps the single move that reeks the most is enforced updates in Win10. That absolutely hands control of your desktop PC to MS. This is another step on the path, a brick in the wall. How much further will MS take this progression to locking users in, and locking them down? How long before they start forcing data storage onto MS cloud storage, for example? Oh, they'll dress it up prettily, at least initially I'm sure, but the objective seems to be get more and more control over more and more aspects of our IT lives. When one step after another all seem consistent with that, it rapidly gets to the point where it all being coincidentally in line that that strategic direction pushes the bounds of credibility beyond breaking.

    It's no secret that I dumped Windows a while back, retaining some legacy systems and moving everything else to Linux. All I can say to Win10 users is that the warning signs have been there for several years, and the writing on the wall. Each further step in the direction of MS acquiring more and more control over what's supposed to be a "personal" computer should not be coming as any surprise, and it looks rather like we all have a binary choice - suck it up, or quit the Windows ecosystem.

  16. #16
    Anthropomorphic Personification shaithis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    The Last Aerie
    Posts
    10,857
    Thanks
    645
    Thanked
    872 times in 736 posts
    • shaithis's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus P8Z77 WS
      • CPU:
      • i7 3770k @ 4.5GHz
      • Memory:
      • 32GB HyperX 1866
      • Storage:
      • Lots!
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Sapphire Fury X
      • PSU:
      • Corsair HX850
      • Case:
      • Corsair 600T (White)
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10 x64
      • Monitor(s):
      • 2 x Dell 3007
      • Internet:
      • Zen 80Mb Fibre

    Re: Tim Sweeney: Devs must oppose Microsoft Windows 10 UWP

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    It's no secret that I dumped Windows a while back, retaining some legacy systems and moving everything else to Linux. All I can say to Win10 users is that the warning signs have been there for several years, and the writing on the wall. Each further step in the direction of MS acquiring more and more control over what's supposed to be a "personal" computer should not be coming as any surprise, and it looks rather like we all have a binary choice - suck it up, or quit the Windows ecosystem.
    Yet Microsoft cannot take control or else they lose pretty much all their enterprise customers......which is where the majority of their profit comes from. So this does not compute and I have yet to hear a decent counter to the point.

    The same applies to why they won't look at your data. The moment they do, any self-respecting company will drop Microsoft products like the proverbial hot potatoes.

    UWP will be the same. If they take control away from devs, devs won't use it - simples.
    Main PC: Asus Rampage IV Extreme / 3960X@4.5GHz / Antec H1200 Pro / 32GB DDR3-1866 Quad Channel / Sapphire Fury X / Areca 1680 / 850W EVGA SuperNOVA Gold 2 / Corsair 600T / 2x Dell 3007 / 4 x 250GB SSD + 2 x 80GB SSD / 4 x 1TB HDD (RAID 10) / Windows 10 Pro, Yosemite & Ubuntu
    HTPC: AsRock Z77 Pro 4 / 3770K@4.2GHz / 24GB / GTX 1080 / SST-LC20 / Antec TP-550 / Hisense 65k5510 4K TV / HTC Vive / 2 x 240GB SSD + 12TB HDD Space / Race Seat / Logitech G29 / Win 10 Pro
    HTPC2: Asus AM1I-A / 5150 / 4GB / Corsair Force 3 240GB / Silverstone SST-ML05B + ST30SF / Samsung UE60H6200 TV / Windows 10 Pro
    Spare/Loaner: Gigabyte EX58-UD5 / i950 / 12GB / HD7870 / Corsair 300R / Silverpower 700W modular
    NAS 1: HP N40L / 12GB ECC RAM / 2 x 3TB Arrays || NAS 2: Dell PowerEdge T110 II / 24GB ECC RAM / 2 x 3TB Hybrid arrays || Network:Buffalo WZR-1166DHP w/DD-WRT + HP ProCurve 1800-24G
    Laptop: Dell Precision 5510 Printer: HP CP1515n || Phone: Huawei P30 || Other: Samsung Galaxy Tab 4 Pro 10.1 CM14 / Playstation 4 + G29 + 2TB Hybrid drive

  17. Received thanks from:

    Tabbykatze (04-03-2016)

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •