Anyone concerned about DRM in Windows Vista?

[mr-nick]

Although nothing is set in stone right now, it's highly probable that Windows Vista will be completely locked down from hardware level up to protect digital content.

As a current MCE 2005 user this is something that concerns me. I don't blame Microsoft as I see the pressure to include such restrictive DRM being forced upon it by the movie studios and record companies: if Microsoft doesn't play ball then Windows users will lose access to media functionality.

Any thoughts?

[aidanjt]

I think the entertainment industry belive themselves to be gods.. first CSS (weakest encryption system known to man) and the region system (which by all rights should be illegal), and now this DRM crud.. when will they learn that it IS NOT going to stop blackmarketeers from doing what they're doing?.. it IS NOT going to stop warez addicts from distributing copywritten material, its just more bloat and crap to annoy the standard users.

Wether or not Microsoft plays ball is highly debatable.. But if they do try to further restrict users control over their systems I can see yet another influx of users moving to Linux as an alternative.

[mr-nick]

Microsoft will definately play ball; I've been reading reports that the latest MCE update is causing problems for US HDTV users already because it's enforcing stricter DRM that's encoded into current broadcasts.. by the time Vista is released I'd predict you'll need a HDCP compliant display, graphics card and optical drive to view most content.

As you say it's not going to stop determined warez distros but will frustrate end users who will in turn blame Microsoft. Switching to Linux will be an option but for a limited percentage of technically aware users.

[Dougal]

I think that Linux WILL become infinitely more accessable to people that are not quite as "technically aware" as the community decides that Microsoft is taking our personal rights to access our own media away from us.

When a corporation decides something that is restrictive the communities will join together in force.

The technological uprising will come.

[joshwa]

I'm going to stick with W2k / WXP - why would I switch to a newer/slower/more bloated operating system when the one's I currently use suffice?

[Spud1]

well a few points here...Why should you give a damn about DRM? If all your music etc is legit then it won't affect you in the slightest. ofc if the majority of it is illegally downloaded etc then you're going to have problems; but even then you can't DRM protect mp3's as such , and they are not going to stop you playing MP3's and only allow WMA are they?

As for DVD region coding etc there are many geniuine reasons to support this, and I can totally see why it has been implemented, but thats for another thread Its easy enough to get round anyway (VLC plays things region free [i think there is a PC version] and theres plenty of software out there to do it)

OFC you always have the option of moving to OSX (and once you do you won't look back trust me) or linux...

[dangel]

well a few points here...Why should you give a damn about DRM? If all your music etc is legit then it won't affect you in the slightest. ofc if the majority of it is illegally downloaded etc then you're going to have problems; but even then you can't DRM protect mp3's as such , and they are not going to stop you playing MP3's and only allow WMA are they?

As for DVD region coding etc there are many geniuine reasons to support this, and I can totally see why it has been implemented, but thats for another thread Its easy enough to get round anyway (VLC plays things region free [i think there is a PC version] and theres plenty of software out there to do it)

OFC you always have the option of moving to OSX (and once you do you won't look back trust me) or linux...

Sorry bit it's this kind of attitude that makes me a bit

DRM doesn't add value to the consumer in any way, shape or form. Thats just FUD you're being fed by the corporations. Why on earth would anyway want to buy any media which is restricted to the point where it won't play back in all the different devices/formats you may use in everyday life?

And moving to another OS won't save you, if you only have the option of downloading in one format that your alternative OS doesn't support/bypass. The point of DRM is to say "we don't trust you to responsibly use the music we've licenced you, so we'll punish you in case you were thinking of doing something we don't like". It's bad enough we live in a country where transfering media from one format to another is illegal (read: ripping to MP3 is not legal here in the UK at all) even for personal use.

Sorry, this isn't meant as a personal slant against you, i'm merely pointing out the fact that the corporations aren't interested in giving you a fair deal, rather they're working hard and removing the level of freedom you currently have (legal or not).

[mr-nick]

well a few points here...Why should you give a damn about DRM? If all your music etc is legit then it won't affect you in the slightest. ofc if the majority of it is illegally downloaded etc then you're going to have problems; but even then you can't DRM protect mp3's as such , and they are not going to stop you playing MP3's and only allow WMA are they?

As for DVD region coding etc there are many geniuine reasons to support this, and I can totally see why it has been implemented, but thats for another thread Its easy enough to get round anyway (VLC plays things region free [i think there is a PC version] and theres plenty of software out there to do it)

OFC you always have the option of moving to OSX (and once you do you won't look back trust me) or linux...

You should give a damn about DRM because it will be there even when you legally have access to the content. Sky's new HDTV service will have it (possibly not initially) for example.

Current DVD region coding is primitive compared to what's coming; with HDCP hardware and HDTV broadcasts / software, content owners can change the keys at will to blacklist any crack. Sure, someone will crack it again then the keys will change and it's repeat, repeat, repeat.

[Spud1]

The companies are only protecting what is theres - they are right - alot of people CAN'T be trusted. So they are simply implementing a way to keep track of what they have sold you. You have to remember here that you (even now) don't own the music, or the mp3 etc, you own the LICENCE to play that song/whatever, and if applicable the media that it came on (although this varies depending on the company, read the T+C's)

it won't affect 99% of users in the slightest. I admit the HDTV one is a bit more silly, but with respect to music DRM i'm all for it. If I ever (god forbid) released a single and i found that 2million or so ppl had it for free I would be majorly pi$$ed off. DRM helps to limit that problem to only those with the technical know-how to get around it. Just like why we need to get rid of easy access to warez stuff - kill bit torrent and other p2p rubbish and piracy will go down by a tonne. but thats going OT

[TiG]

The companies are only protecting what is theres - they are right - alot of people CAN'T be trusted. So they are simply implementing a way to keep track of what they have sold you. You have to remember here that you (even now) don't own the music, or the mp3 etc, you own the LICENCE to play that song/whatever, and if applicable the media that it came on (although this varies depending on the company, read the T+C's)

it won't affect 99% of users in the slightest. I admit the HDTV one is a bit more silly, but with respect to music DRM i'm all for it. If I ever (god forbid) released a single and i found that 2million or so ppl had it for free I would be majorly pi$$ed off. DRM helps to limit that problem to only those with the technical know-how to get around it. Just like why we need to get rid of easy access to warez stuff - kill bit torrent and other p2p rubbish and piracy will go down by a tonne. but thats going OT

Fair use is the word Spud. If i buy a CD from a shop i want to listen to it on my PC, i might want to lend it to a mate, who then might buy his own copy.

I don't want to be limited how i can listen to music that i have paid for. If DRM restrictions are placed on items i buy then I will not purchase that product.

DRM will do nothing to stop piracy, the system always has to decode the song into normal format to play it, as soon as that happens, someone will crack the code and distribute an illegal way to get round the DRM.

I mean there are other ways of getting round DRM too, Output the music in highest quality to an output device saving it back to normal format without the DRM.

There you go again, completely unprotected music. DRM is a waste of time and effort. The sooner people realise that the better. Find better ways of allowing people to get the songs for cheaper value and you will get more money than they do now.

Killing P2P and bit torrent won't do anything to stop piracy, FTP's will just come back into force. Piracy has always been ahead of the governments and record companies, I don't ever see piracy stopping.

DRM is bad full stop, bad for consumers, legitimate users and is pointless to stop piracy.

Just look at current DRM attempts, they have all be broken all ready. We'll have hacks to Vista before long to remove the DRM in that.

TiG

[nez]

i believe that this will bring an opertunitie to linux, if they create a more easy to use verison (getting their with ubuntu) then i could see a lot of people switching at least people i know. I doubt i will be upgrading to it, likely to stick with xp until i know linux well enoguh to switch for good.

nez

[dangel]

Think of it this way. If you ever released a single and 2 million people *who'd never heard of you, and wouldn't of bought it anyway* got it illegally, and your concerts were then a sell out - would you still be pi$$ed off? Piracy isn't alway a negative thing. Similarly, if 2 million people bought your single and found that they couldn't play it back in their car player - either because the CD format had been tampered with or the digital format wasn't compatible - I doubt you be quite so happy with the crap they'd post on your website

DRM will affect everyone - it assumes we're all nasty scrotes looking to make a fast buck off someone's else's back. This couldn't be further from the truth, the majority of piracy doesn't represent 1:1 lost sales - and some of it even promotes sales *growth* in that it's essentially free advertising. Of course, this varies from one type of media to another, but in general terms nobody has really lost any money - not in a way that can be proven. People still go to the movies, people still buy music despite what the industry preaches. You only have to look to software - which has suffered from piracy for far, far longer to see that nobody is going to go out of business.

[Spud1]

The idea is not to stop piracy completely - they know that it cannot be done.

The point is to stop 'casual users' - ie joe public - from pirating it. Anyone these days can jump onto limewire or a bit torrent site and download whatever music/app/film they wont with next to no PC knowledge.

Getting rid of P2P would help enourmously as the majority of users don't have the connections to get access to decent FTPs/pubs or the technical know-how to use newsgroups/irc. We saw what affect reducing access had 5 years ago when HTTP warez virtually died (although it does still exist to a very small point).

DRM is the same in that it will stop the majority of casusal pirates from pirating music. sure its crackable and everyone knows this, but that doesnt mean that everyone will be able to use the crack(s). DRM doesnt stop you doing anything that your are allowed to do by the licence of whatever product you bought. Lending your music to a friend is fine - as long as its lending. Lending it him/her and then letting them rip it would be illegal..and DRM could help to stop that.

The ONLY arguement that I can see against DRM would be the inconvinience , taking dangels example of playing a CD in your car stereo as an example. I would agree wtih you there, but it is only likely to affect a very small number of players..and even if it does it probably means your player is very old. If you're talking about making MP3 CDs though (which re-reading makes more sense) then you have no arguement. Sure it would be more convenient to stick 10 CDs or whatever onto an MP3 CD for your car, but just because you want to doesnt mean that you can do it. If the licence that YOU AGREED TO when you bought the original CD states you cant do that (and it is re-inforced by whatever means, DRM for example) then you can't do it, simple as that. If you don't agree to it then don't buy the CD...

[TheAnimus]

of for christs sake people, this is the league of un-informed voters here, anyone actually on the beta program here? Anyone read the technical announcements?

There is a new DRM engine, which is a good thing for people like me, i don't want people to pirate the programs i've written, anything that helps in that manner is good. People complain about TCPA, the same people who complain about viruses.

Stop making a bunch of Daily Mail style predictions on something u've no clue about.

[dangel]

of for christs sake people, this is the league of un-informed voters here, anyone actually on the beta program here? Anyone read the technical announcements?

There is a new DRM engine, which is a good thing for people like me, i don't want people to pirate the programs i've written, anything that helps in that manner is good. People complain about TCPA, the same people who complain about viruses.

Stop making a bunch of Daily Mail style predictions on something u've no clue about.

I think this has spiraled in a wider discussion of DRM rather than focussing specifically on Vista. I have it installed here (legally, I might add) and am a developer so yes, some of us have done the homework, such as there is to go on right now.

Incidentally, piracy of software may well support sales - certainly all the software i used as a student i've now got my company to pay for... I wouldn't of done that if I hadn't used them illegally. Interesting one that!

[dangel]

The ONLY arguement that I can see against DRM would be the inconvinience , taking dangels example of playing a CD in your car stereo as an example. I would agree wtih you there, but it is only likely to affect a very small number of players..and even if it does it probably means your player is very old. If you're talking about making MP3 CDs though (which re-reading makes more sense) then you have no arguement. Sure it would be more convenient to stick 10 CDs or whatever onto an MP3 CD for your car, but just because you want to doesnt mean that you can do it. If the licence that YOU AGREED TO when you bought the original CD states you cant do that (and it is re-inforced by whatever means, DRM for example) then you can't do it, simple as that. If you don't agree to it then don't buy the CD...

The arguement against DRM varies according to where you live - in some countries 'fair use' is allowed and anything preventing you making legal backup copies is, in itself, illegal. FYI car cd changers are very vunerable to 'corrupt' format CDs and it's far from an isolated problem (my car is 2 years old and suffers from this one so I have to 'clean' the CD by bypassing the CD protection so it'll play _at all_).
Yes, it's very easy to say we've all signed up for this by buying a CD - but how many of us read licence agreements? Thought so. Most people in the UK believe there is 'fair use' under UK Law and wouldn't think twice about taping a CD for a car player, which is no different from ripping it to MP3 for the same purpose. The problem is the companies are treating us all like we're potential mass-market-for-profit-music-dealers, when the truth is we just want music in a format convenient for the way we listen to music. Seems the only way to 'buy' music in this form is from a certain russian website - and just look at how much business they do as a result. Reasonable pricing and a lack of 'incovenience' (read: 'restrictions') would go a long way to marginalising piracy - but instead we have iTunes..