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Thread: Archery

  1. #17
    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: Archery

    Quote Originally Posted by TooNice View Post
    About the draw weight, are there any benefits from going for a heavier one? I am no bodybuilder but I do train and am probably a little stronger than average. When the regular members let us pull the string on their bow, many seem to find it pretty heavy whereas I did not find it that bad. If I work on it, after a month or so, I could probably handle even heavier draw weight, but is there any point for that for target shooting?
    I covered that earlier in the thread - heavier limbs for the same draw length mean more power and therefore arrow speed and a flatter, shorter trajectory to the target. But the trade off is you need bigger muscle cells (which reduces accuracy) and you will fatigue them quicker. The further you shoot and the rougher the conditions (ie outdoors) the more important it is to have more power, but if the conditions don't need it then all other things being equal the guy using a lighter draw will probably hold the advantage.

    Ergo most of us end up using two sets of limbs which we swap between, using the lightest we can get away with for the type of shooting.

    If you find the weight fine then that means you can concentrate on technique.

  2. #18
    MCRN Tachi Ttaskmaster's Avatar
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    Re: Archery

    Quote Originally Posted by TooNice View Post
    The club seems to favour a particular shop, who seems to favour Hoyt bows.
    Kinda like certain forums telling you an R9 290X or a Titan is the only card to buy... when a 6950 will meet your needs just fine!

    Which shop is it?
    I always got on well with the range of different choice at Quicks.

    Quote Originally Posted by TooNice View Post
    I am not sure what are the main parts of a recurve.
    Riser (handle/middle bit)
    Limbs (matched set of top and bottom)
    String
    Arrow rest
    Most seem to have a pressure button, too

    Those are the absolute basics for most bows.
    Bit of thread to make your nocking points. Carrying bag, bracer and tab, arrow puller, quiver and, of course, some arrows.


    Quote Originally Posted by TooNice View Post
    I never knew bows were so expensive.
    Hoyt are like the Aston Martins of archery, really.

    Quote Originally Posted by TooNice View Post
    Is it a good idea? Can you save quite a bit when going used with bows? Can they still work perfectly well (barring cosmetic issues)?
    Yes, yes and yes, especially if you buy an old bow from a club member - You tend to get more solid deals and if they flog you a crock, their name will be mud in both this club and most other nearby ones. Word travels fast!

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    Re: Archery

    I just came back from the archery store (Shibuya Archery - actually, I think it is the very store that also make some accessories like sights etc., that you can find at Quicks Archery) with a few other new members who went to shop and club officers to look out for us.

    Looks like I was wrong about the shop favouring Hoyt. Well, they may or may not, it's the first they introduce, but the staff didn't push it. The shop store 4 brands: Hoyt, Win&Win, Samick Sports and MK Archery (the only one they discouraged for beginners). The two new members who placed their an order for a complete set were girls who generally went for a cheaper Samick riser with tons of colour options (£129) and paired it with a budget Hoyt Limb (tied for second cheapest limb in the catalogue at £158). But the the whole set including sight, stabiliser, stand, bag, arrows, etc. etc. came to to about £765.

    Both the staff member and club officers took the perspective that you want to be happy with the look of the bow, on the basis that it'll motivate you to continue and improve. Being the unfashionable nerd, I am more of a specification whore, and find the concept of picking a brand based on the one you think look best kinda mad. But then again, perhaps that as beginners, we do not really know how to appreciate the intricacies of the different material, tech, and the psychological influence of liking equipment for one reason or another is what matters.

    I know nothing about cars, so I am afraid that comparison to an Aston Martin doesn't say much to me. Does it mean that they are good but expensive? Expensive but no better than the competition? I am kind of assuming they aren't expensive and bad, since it seems that some Olympians have done very well with them. That said, in this store at least, Hoyt aren't the most expensive (W&W were - but I wonder if the catalogue left out the entry level stuff).

    Also, what sets one riser from another from a functional perspective? There is obviously the weight, but what separates an entry (£130), mid-range (£300) and top of the range (£600) riser? Is this something that is worth going for a high end option from the starts, or should I just get something cheap-ish but functional in the second hand market to get started?

    Lastly, are there any parts which is mostly a one time (or decade+) purchase and worth going for the top of the end (I seem to remember reading that sights fall in this category).

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    Re: Archery

    Do you have any better alternatives rather than clickers? I tried using them but it was not so effective as I thought.

  5. #21
    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: Archery

    Quote Originally Posted by alexander2020 View Post
    Do you have any better alternatives rather than clickers? I tried using them but it was not so effective as I thought.
    Clickers are basically 100% effective for what they do. If they're not helping then you either have such a consistant stance/anchor that you don't need one, or you have other technique problems that you need to get around first. The vast majority of people are in the latter situation so shouldn't bother with clickers.

  6. #22
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    Re: Archery

    Quote Originally Posted by TooNice View Post
    Both the staff member and club officers took the perspective that you want to be happy with the look of the bow, on the basis that it'll motivate you to continue and improve.
    I don't get that myself - I think bows are either cool, or if you're into colours you'll get used to it within a fortnight anyway and any motivating/show off effect will wear off.

    Being the unfashionable nerd, I am more of a specification whore, and find the concept of picking a brand based on the one you think look best kinda mad.
    Agreed!

    But then again, perhaps that as beginners, we do not really know how to appreciate the intricacies of the different material, tech, and the psychological influence of liking equipment for one reason or another is what matters.
    Sure - at the end of the day, pick it up in your hand and hold it at arms length for ages and see if you're comfortable. My bow has a pretty ugly solid aluminium alloy riser in a horrible candy blue colour, yet once it's assembled it looks like an elegant machine and is great to shoot with.

    Also, what sets one riser from another from a functional perspective? There is obviously the weight, but what separates an entry (£130), mid-range (£300) and top of the range (£600) riser? Is this something that is worth going for a high end option from the starts, or should I just get something cheap-ish but functional in the second hand market to get started?
    What strength + shape limbs they can take. How the limbs attach. Comfort. Weight. Grip. Clearance. Nock point. Sensitivity to tuning adjustments etc.

    I still think buying at this stage is mad, especially buying new. But if you must, I'd buy something that's forgiving for your first bow - there are so many things that *you* can do to affect the shot you want to give yourself a chance to get those right before even thinking about moving to a bow which needs to be tuned perfectly, even if when done so it might somehow out-perform the more forgiving bow.

    Lastly, are there any parts which is mostly a one time (or decade+) purchase and worth going for the top of the end (I seem to remember reading that sights fall in this category).
    I don't know - to my regret I stuck with the sight that came with my bow second hand for too long, and it was terrible. Missed out on winning one competition when it slipped without my noticing. So yeah, avoid Arten R10sights! But otherwise I guess people might say buy a good sight because you can likely transfer it to a new bow and you'll be used to setting it up *shrugs* I wouldn't go overboard though - look for something solid rather than fancy - again, where you point the thing is only a small part of the accuracy.

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    Re: Archery

    Thanks. How do you determine if something is going to be forgiving or not? I am pretty convinced that I do not really want a new bow, though I am not entirely sure if I will be able to get one used. Sometime next week, the circle officer (*) and the university's official archery club and see if they have something that fits me (size wise). If they do, then I will just go for it, if they don't then I am kinda stuck. The archery shop I went last time did not look like they stored any used products, so I may have to look elsewhere..

    (*) I've been using the term "club" so far, but what I am really joining is known as "circle" over here. The term "club" here reserved the group officially recognised by the university and in most cases compete for the university. For most sports, it means practising 6 times per week, may get you credits towards the degree. "Circles" non-official, usually more relaxed (though some are stricter / more restrictive than others).

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    MCRN Tachi Ttaskmaster's Avatar
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    Re: Archery

    Quote Originally Posted by TooNice View Post
    I know nothing about cars, so I am afraid that comparison to an Aston Martin doesn't say much to me. Does it mean that they are good but expensive? Expensive but no better than the competition?
    Expensive, but generally more worth the money than other more high profile cars (Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc), less flashy and more tasteful, full of performance, but with very little actually screaming for attention, sort of thing...

    I dunno, really. I ride a motorcycle. For me, cars are mainly just big dumb box-shaped things that are either in my way and/or trying to kill me...

  9. #25
    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: Archery

    Quote Originally Posted by TooNice View Post
    Thanks. How do you determine if something is going to be forgiving or not?
    Ask an expert, read the product description (look for words like student bow, avoid words like competition etc.) or if all else fails, look for the one that looks the simplest with the least amount of things to adjust - if you can't adjust it then it has to be fairly forgiving. And that doesn't mean it'll be a bad bow either - again, look at my Perris Whitehart for an example.

    I am pretty convinced that I do not really want a new bow, though I am not entirely sure if I will be able to get one used. Sometime next week, the circle officer (*) and the university's official archery club and see if they have something that fits me (size wise).
    Don't forget that for most bows you can change the size by changing the limbs so try and get a riser with compatible/common fittings (here, don't follow my example! Mine uses asymmetric limbs that were only - and no longer - made by a small company in scotland ). Perhaps look for limbs first and then buy a riser that's compatible.

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    Re: Archery

    This forum has everything in it!

    I have 2 bows at present - a Keith Gascoigne Cobra #50 and a Samick Spikeman #45. None of your compound black-magic for this toxophilite.

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    Re: Archery

    It has been 3 months since the last post, the whole saga about getting a bow (*) has harmed my motivation and progress. I was only practising for maybe 90min every 10 days with a practice bow shared with everyone from a range of 10m most of the time and 18m a few times.

    (*) The club only had 3 sets of second hand bows and I ran into various problems like the first set being, aside from being quite expensive (came with an old but flagship riser), but also extremely incomplete with bits missing etc. So I asked to switch to another riser, but the first sets of 66" limb (optimal for my draw length) turned out incompatible with the riser, and when we tried a second pair of limb, it turned out the riser did not work with 66" limbs. So now I had to settle for a 68" limbs. The alternative is to spend an extra £150-200 to get the first set including the bits and pieces. But though it would fit the 66" limb, the only compatible with it looks a bit dodgy (old and even the archery shop said that it -might- be fine for about one more years' use but really isn't in very good condition) so I do not even have the peace of mind that it won't snap, risking injury / having to buy new limbs. Note the whole ordeal took over two months to sort and I first shot the bow briefly two weeks ago, the only time I used it until last Friday.

    Last Friday I joined went on an archery field trip with the club. We went to a small mountain, escaping the heat and practised quite a lot. 2.5 hours on the first day (had to spend an hour or so setting up), 6.5 hours on the second day, 3.5 hours on the third day, 6.5 hours on the fourth day, and.. regretfully, none on the last day (we were supposed do 30-60min of practice then have have a team tournament but it was cancelled due to heavy rain).

    First two days were great. Though I had lost some motivation from the whole ordeal of getting a functional bow, it quickly came back once I started shooting. It was satisfying to shoot, and at 18m, I saw my score progressively get better. As I got near the 50 points (though never reached it), I decided to move onto 30m. Though at that point, I noticed something strange. My arrows kept going left of where I was aiming. At 18m, got used to compensating by aiming further right and I was able to get stable results. But at 30m, I struggled to compensate with consistency. I would miss at least one arrow every six, and my score remained in the high 10s to low 20s, crap (though incidentally, once I hit both 9 and 10, but completely missed 4 other arrows). As frustration settled, it got worse and towards the end of the 4th day, it was not uncommon for me to hit single digits or even null point as I tried many ways to adjust the way I shot (and made things worse). The experienced students teaching us beginners would come and give various advice like don't grip the handle, don't move the head once you've established your anchor point etc. etc. but none of their advice seem to have any effect on my arrows going left. In fact, sometime it seemed like it got worse. I even tried someone else's bow and it was the same.

    But it did occur to me that depending on which angle from which I look through the sight, the target is different and theorised that maybe I am not viewing the sight from the right angle and need to shift my head/body in certain way. After explaining that, one of the students finally thought of testing my eye dominance. And, surprise, surprise, I am cross dominant. Until yesterday, I knew about the existence of eye dominance but did not know that it could have practical implications, nor did I know which eye was my dominant eye.

    Well darn. Finding that out at the end of the day meant that I only got to shoot twice before we had to call it a day. After one attempt I noticed my arrows grouped much more closely albeit mostly under the target and for the first time the arrows were straying right (almost happy). On the second attempt, after adjusting the sights, I finally managed to land all my arrows on the target. Sure the score was still awful but I did feel that the first (low) "plateau" is finally broken.

    Now I am thinking of getting an eye patch and look like a pirate. But I am also a bit concerned as to whether this is a long term solution. The most obvious issue I noticed shooting one eyed is that it stops me from being able to see see the arrow flying towards the target which is a problem if I need to adjust the next shot. And I suspect that it won't the only problem I will encounter. Reading online, the opinion seems split 50/50 between whether to shoot with shoot by closing the dominant eyes, and shooting left handed (in my case). Considering that I have not really spent a lot of time in archery so far, and still suck pretty bad anyway, I won't feel like I have wasted too much time learning to shoot right handed. Then again, I worry about acquiring the dexterity required on the left arm. Strength shouldn't be an issue at 34lb (every girls buy a bow with 28lb limbs and every guy starts at 34lb in our club once they have their own bow). I do pull ups so my upper back is fairly evenly trained and when I injured my right elbow earlier this year, I started doing one handed left hand push ups so both my chest/arms strength is fairly strong for a right handed person. But the dexterity on the other hand is pretty awful.

    Anyway, in terms of question, I would only like to hear comments from people who are or know other cross dominant archers (preferably those who started a bit older). Things like what they chose to do, whether experience in terms of progression compared to their peer and such. Truth is that I do not plan to compete in anything other than friendlies, have no particularly high aspiration, and for all I know only have 1 year of archery to go. Buuuut, by nature, I kinda like to do "pretty well" in things that I enjoy (which I do in archery right now). I also train pretty hard compared to most once I find the motivation. I took no break during the 3.5 hours day and more than 30min break across the 6.5 hour day, and only because I was asked to, or because I was listening to the advice they were giving.

  12. #28
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    Re: Archery

    Interesting. I've always fancied giving it a go, never got round to it. But noticed the other week that they run an archery club of some sorts in the field opposite my new house, so once I am moved in I will be giving it a go!

  13. #29
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    Re: Archery

    TooNice, eye-dominance should have been something the club checked before giving you your first draw of a bow! If you're at least partially right-eye dominant though, I'd stick with right hand shooting just because it's so much easier to find bows etc. And definitely use a patch!

    However if you're completely left-eye dominant then you've got a trickier decision. Wearing a patch might train you to use the right eye enough to get by - like we've said before, aiming is probably the least critical bit and I reckon using a non-dominant eye would still be fine.. but only if you find it comfortable. Try it.

    If you don't find a patch/forcing right-eye comfortable then go to left hand (and you may need a patch on your right eye for a bit).

    For reference, I'm left-eye dominant for rifle shooting, but shoot bows right handed and just close my left eye.

  14. #30
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    Re: Archery

    Quote Originally Posted by Butuz View Post
    Interesting. I've always fancied giving it a go, never got round to it. But noticed the other week that they run an archery club of some sorts in the field opposite my new house, so once I am moved in I will be giving it a go!
    Do give it a go, and ask early. The club near me run a beginners course but only once a year which was 6 Saturday mornings. You can do a one morning "have a go" session, but I think that is rather basic so glad I did the full course.

    I didn't join the club at the end of the course, but I have the certificate so they said if I ever decide to join a quick brush up session should be enough to get me in.

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    Re: Archery

    Quote Originally Posted by TooNice View Post
    Anyway, in terms of question, I would only like to hear comments from people who are or know other cross dominant archers (preferably those who started a bit older). Things like what they chose to do, whether experience in terms of progression compared to their peer and such.
    A guy in my group on the course I was on struggled with eye dominance. He tried left handed and I think ended up with the eye patch. Main thing is, they picked up on this on day 1 and he was trying stuff week by week, and it was only at the end of the course he was really getting on top of it. So it looks like you have to try things and find what works best for you.

    The eye patch was I think the first thing he tried, he just got one from the local chemist.

    If it helps, unlike me he did sign up to the club and is really enjoying it. His shots were all over the place while he as experimenting though.

    Do take a break though. Human brain can only concentrate well for 20 mins at a time, so just slogging at any learning activity often doesn't help.

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    Re: Archery

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    TooNice, eye-dominance should have been something the club checked before giving you your first draw of a bow! If you're at least partially right-eye dominant though, I'd stick with right hand shooting just because it's so much easier to find bows etc. And definitely use a patch!
    Yeah, upon further Googling, it does seem the norm to test eye dominance straight off. Well, it is a circle ran by students, and I think there is only one non-new member student who is is cross dominant, and of amongst new members there are only three of us (the circle grew quite significantly this year). Overall, pretty low percentage (5%? There are about 80 of us) so I guess that they aren't used to coming across this problem. You mentioned partial eye dominance but how do you test the degree of eye dominance?

    Incidentally, amongst those of us who joined in April, the best female member at the moment is also cross-dominant (and train pretty hard too - at the field trip she shot almost often as I did, and outside the field trip she also train more often than I do). She decided to go against the eye patch for aesthetic reasons, choosing to simply close her left eye too.

    On a side note, what kind of eye patch do people use for archery? While I am thinking that it might be fun to get a Halloween style pirate eye patch, would it be more comfortable to get one of those white eye patch people wear after surgery, or something else?

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    If it helps, unlike me he did sign up to the club and is really enjoying it. His shots were all over the place while he as experimenting though.
    That sounds like me! At one point I had landed shots on *3* targets. Land an X on the wrong target is both amusing and sad.

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