E-Golf long term test

[Zak33]

https://www.am-online.com/roadtests/...free-of-charge

I'm watching some of the motor trade long termers drive EV's and this one is of interest.

Automotive Management's Golf is managing 124 miles on a charge and the driver was well pelased when his car was charged to 100% in a sensible period of time at a Service Station... and then less pleased when nothing happened at another one.

A stop at the A1’s busy Wetherby service station to charge at the Ecotricity 50kW CCS held a pleasant surprise – not only did it return me to 100% charge quickly, but my download of the charge point provider’s smartphone app proved unnecessary, with the energy flowing in straight away without registration or payment.

Days later, on a trip to a chaotic IKEA Sheffield I smugly swept into an EV space and plugged in to another Ecotricity charge point. When I returned 40 minutes later, no charge had been dispensed.
The most worrying part in all this? On both journeys, I was accosted by genuine EV owners exhibiting the same frustrations about the functionality of chargers and whether they would be charged or not.

He's trying hard to adapt. In a different article he had to chose to not take the EV because he was worried he might not get a space at the charge point.
https://www.am-online.com/roadtests/...-range-anxiety

A recent range-busting 180-mile round trip to the NEC in Birmingham presented me with the gamble of plugging into one of the Genting Resort’s three Pod Point public chargers and a walk to my scheduled meeting.
There was also anxiety around charge-point hogging. Were I to bag a charger, I would have wanted to return to vacate it mid-way through the day.
Ultimately, I left the EV at home.

People can queue for 5 or 6 minutes to get fuel, taking then 5 minutes to fill and to pay... but you cant queue all those cars for charges that take a lot longer.

[Hoonigan]

Realistically, we're still 10-15 years away from any kind of infrastructure to support EVs. The fact that you can plug your car in, with very little charge, and return to it to find it's still empty is terrifying.

Until these issues are 100%, and I mean 100% resolved, I'll be sticking with my diesel.

[Saracen]

Well, I've swid it before and I'll say it again, for EV's to interest me three things are needed :-

- minimum 300 mile range on a charge, preferably 400
- decent charging infrastucture, akin to petrol stations
- cars don't carry a stupid price pre ium to buy.

Oh, and 4th,

- a reasonable cost per mile from charging.

Wake me up when we get close .... if I should live that long.

[DanceswithUnix]

- a reasonable cost per mile from charging.

Is it currently too cheap then?

[cheesemp]

I'm ready for an EV. My car just does my commute - <70 Miles every day. My wife has a diesel when I need to go further so I'd never need to worry about a public charger. Just need to be able to afford one first (child care costs are a killer). Even a second hand leaf is £10000 for a decent one. The Zoe is a cheaper at £6000 but then you need to hire the battery at ~£70 a month which just isn't worth it. Just need to wait another year or two for some more second hand models to arrive...

[spacein_vader]

I'm ready for an EV. My car just does my commute - <70 Miles every day. My wife has a diesel when I need to go further so I'd never need to worry about a public charger. Just need to be able to afford one first (child care costs are a killer). Even a second hand leaf is £10000 for a decent one. The Zoe is a cheaper at £6000 but then you need to hire the battery at ~£70 a month which just isn't worth it. Just need to wait another year or two for some more second hand models to arrive...

See I'd rather hire the battery than own it tbh. You're making the single most likely and expensive point of failure someone else's problem.

[Bagnaj97]

Well, I've swid it before and I'll say it again, for EV's to interest me three things are needed :-

- minimum 300 mile range on a charge, preferably 400
- decent charging infrastucture, akin to petrol stations

and this is why I think PHEVs are currently the way to go. A couple of people at work have Mitsubishi Outlander PHEVs and they're very happy with them. 33 miles electric range is plenty for school run/shopping/popping into town etc and if everyone drove a PHEV it should massively alleviate urban air pollution, yet if you have a longer drive or can't find an EV charger, you don't have to worry about range.

[cheesemp]

There are 100k mile Leaf's that have been used as Taxi's rapid charged every day still on the original battery. I don't think they go that quick. Yes it a big bill when it does need replacing but its no more than a new gear box + clutch. It also makes it economically less attractive - £70 a month takes most of the saving out of going electric. I worked out a second hand (~£10000) leaf would pay for itself (for me) over 4 years vs cost of fuel/tax - That £70 means a Zoe doesn't. The only reason I haven't pulled the trigger as I don't want to take on more debt until we've paid off the wife's car and the kitchen.

[Zak33]

they're very cheap per mile... if you just take the electric costs into it.

[Ttaskmaster]

- a reasonable cost per mile from charging.
Wake me up when we get close .... if I should live that long.

1/. Cars will likely be self-drive before we get a decent or even semi-adequate charging infrastructure in place.

2/. You will NEVER see a reasonable cost per mile once EVs become commonplace.
Yes, it's 'free' right now and only takes a few hours, so long as some company can make themselves look good by providing charge points...
Once enough people have EVs, every point with charge you for the charge-up.
Once it becomes the norm, you'll have to choose between slow charge and fast charge fees, and it will NOT surprise me when BE (British Electricitium), e-Esso, TexEco, Sainsbur-E's and the like start advertising High Performance electricity, Eco-Friendly electricity and other such...
And if EVER they figure out a reasonable way for people to charge their cars while having to park 800yds away from their rented terraced housing, that certainly won't be free.

I also can't wait for the scandal where it is revealed that each EV generates five times more pollution that the worst ever diesel... of course, the only company to get bad press over it will be VW!!

[badass]

https://www.am-online.com/roadtests/...free-of-charge

I'm watching some of the motor trade long termers drive EV's and this one is of interest.

Automotive Management's Golf is managing 124 miles on a charge and the driver was well pelased when his car was charged to 100% in a sensible period of time at a Service Station... and then less pleased when nothing happened at another one.



He's trying hard to adapt. In a different article he had to chose to not take the EV because he was worried he might not get a space at the charge point.
https://www.am-online.com/roadtests/...-range-anxiety


People can queue for 5 or 6 minutes to get fuel, taking then 5 minutes to fill and to pay... but you cant queue all those cars for charges that take a lot longer.

Every problem has been with the woeful state of public car charging infrastructure. Fuel may be quick and simple, however you can't have your car refuelled every time you park it on your driveway. You have to drive (sometimes significantly out of your way) to refuel. So EV's may actually be more convenient for some. More on this at the bottom of this post.

Realistically, we're still 10-15 years away from any kind of infrastructure to support EVs. The fact that you can plug your car in, with very little charge, and return to it to find it's still empty is terrifying.

Until these issues are 100%, and I mean 100% resolved, I'll be sticking with my diesel.

Perfectly valid response to those concerns.

Well, I've swid it before and I'll say it again, for EV's to interest me three things are needed :-

- minimum 300 mile range on a charge, preferably 400
- decent charging infrastucture, akin to petrol stations
- cars don't carry a stupid price pre ium to buy.

Again, perfectly valid.

However for some people, EV's make vastly more sense than petrol/diesel cars. They don't need multi hundred mile ranges and don't need to care about the current woeful state of charging infrastructure (by this I don't mean the lack of charging points - you can plan around that. I mean the terror of finding your car has been plugged in and not charged. That is simply completely unacceptable. As a bare minimum, once plugged in, the charging point should indicate that charging is occurring!)

Use case 1:
Person commutes well within the max range of the EV. They do enough miles to more than offset the extra cost to buy with the savings on pence per mile. They have access to a second car - either theirs or their partners for long journeys.
An EV with a ~100 mile range is more than fine for this one (provided commute both ways is less than 75% of real world range)

Use case 2:
Person regularly does short journeys with the very rare significantly longer journey. For the longer journeys, they are taking a risk that public charging points don't work. However with a longer range EV, don't let the battery go too close to empty so if charging point is not working, they can drive to another one. Optimum time to charge - motorway service station during break. Plug car in, relieve oneself in public loos, return to car, check that car is charging, return to service station to eat etc. Return to mostly charged car.
The inconvenience for the very rare long journeys if offset by the substantial savings elsewhere.

Use case 3:
Person has plenty of money and loves the technology. The instant acceleration and the convenience of the tank getting filled every time they park it at home.

Use case 4:
Person is an environmentalist. All (or almost all) of their power comes from solar panel and wind turbines on their property.

Use case 5:
Person is a wannabe environmentalist. They want to feel smug and superior over others that are "wrecking the environment"

All of the above use cases are also perfectly valid. In fact they probably cover around 10% of the population currently. So with the ~5% EV penetration currently, there is probably scope for more sales even now.

Remember just because EV's aren't right for you doesn't mean they aren't right for anyone. At the same time I appreciate that some EV drivers are equally blinkered. For instance, In every use case (apart from use case 5) there is a driveway/garage requirement. Something that is not an option for a large part of the population.

[Ttaskmaster]

Every problem has been with the woeful state of public car charging infrastructure.

That's one of my many objections to EVs...

Fuel may be quick and simple, however you can't have your car refuelled every time you park it on your driveway.

Equally, if you run out of electricity you can't just walk to the nearest charge station and pick up a battery big enough to get you there...

All of the above use cases are also perfectly valid. In fact they probably cover around 10% of the population currently.

I tend to find most EV drivers are pretty much a combination of all those cases in varying measures. Certainly the smug EV lot who, like militant vegans, will not shut up about all the above and how much better they are than you, and how you really should make the switch because you're killing kids (scientists have proven, studies have shown...) with your ICE vehicles, blah blah blah blah.......

I really wish I was kidding about the smuggers... so named because they like to sneak up on you in the parking lot and jump you with the, "Oh, you're still driving a diesel? I didn't think they existed any more..." line of smug-attack. These are people I see every working day, because they've sat next to me for decades!

Remember just because EV's aren't right for you doesn't mean they aren't right for anyone.

Don't tell us. Tell the government and whoever else will be part of trying to force EVs on everyone. That's from where we anticipate the biggest (but not only) problems to originate...!

[Gerrard]

Regarding costs, Tesla reckon you can do over 300 miles on a 75kWh battery (Model 3). Lets make that 225 miles for worst case. That equals 3 miles /kWh. Average electricity rate seems to be around 13p, so that makes it a bit over 4p /mile cost.
For diesel, lets say 60 MPG and 130p/litre, that works out around 10p /mile. But here's the flexibility electricity offers. If you go solar (or maybe wind), you can bring that cost down per mile, albeit for an expensive outlay. Regardless though, it's not something available for diesel cars (short of going around chip shops for used oil and the like!).

The other thing to consider is that things probably won't get much better as EV's are already pretty efficient. That range of 4miles /kWh probably won't increase that much. The efficiency will come down to making the batteries more energy dense and therefore lighter. When you consider they can weigh in excess of 500kg, a 50% decrease would make a significant improvement.

Finally, regarding charging, if we are happy with the 400mil / 100kWh battery size, then regardless of the battery technology, if you wanted to charge it fully in say 6 minutes, that would require 1MW! And that assumes you could keep pumping that power in all the way to the top. I can't remember what home chargers are limited to, but even at 10kW you would just about charge it overnight.

[Zak33]

fast charging is still likely to degrade battery life, so I think that's out for the mean time.

even if those charge stations get larger and more efficient.

I've spent so many days of my adult life on a time schedule that cant be missed that this charging issue, even when it works, is a problem. Getting to a meeting 120 miles away and getting bavk in time to collect kids from school or child minderd has been part of ym life for a decade. TO find I cant charge up and don't have a spare can of electric in my boot would be a terrifying thought.

[Moby-Dick]

I'd put myself in cases 1,2&3

Not sure rapid charging degrades the battery as much as you would think - milage has a much more significant effect https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/fi...udy_fs_50k.pdf The odd rapid charge is often recommended.

Driving solely in MK which isn't great for any fuel efficiency we get between 3 and 4 mpkWh - over 4 on a longer journey. using off peak economy 7 for charging at about 7p/unit.

[badass]

Regarding costs, Tesla reckon you can do over 300 miles on a 75kWh battery (Model 3). Lets make that 225 miles for worst case. That equals 3 miles /kWh. Average electricity rate seems to be around 13p, so that makes it a bit over 4p /mile cost.
For diesel, lets say 60 MPG and 130p/litre, that works out around 10p /mile. But here's the flexibility electricity offers. If you go solar (or maybe wind), you can bring that cost down per mile, albeit for an expensive outlay. Regardless though, it's not something available for diesel cars (short of going around chip shops for used oil and the like!).

Money saving wise - 6p per mile is £600/year saving for 10k miles. For new vehicles, a drop in the ocean of cost of owning and running. I suspect its more about company car tax savings. For 2nd hand vehicles however the economics are quite different.