Driving in snowy/icy conditions (and electronic driver aids)

[MaddAussie]

It made me laugh last year, working in Oxford during the cold snap and we had loads of people (mostly 4x4 drivers) saying it was too dangerous to come into work. There was me on the MG pootling in quite happily, its more about knowing the limitations of the car/boots and driving accordingly. The only issue I've had so far this year was a patch of diesel on the in apex of a a right angled right hand corner on a giratory in Poole, I ended up looking at the curb from 45degs for a split second, dab of opposite lock sorted it out, did wonder what the guy to me left thought tho...

[dave87]

I agree, we need to all go back to our Voodoo 1 3d cards.

No point having anything better as it's just marketing.

The point holds if you are only running...say DOS. Having the latest firebreathing card isn't going to make the slightest bit of difference for 99.9% of the time.

Same with UK Winters - we see so little snow on the ground and very little sub zero driving, that despite them being 'better' below 7 degrees Celsius, they are only a marginal improvement over the summer/all seasons tyres fitted to most cars.

If we had a climate comparable to say, Switzerland, then I can see the justification. They face far more snow/sub zero driving across a winter than we do in a number of years of UK winters. It makes sense (and is law, afaik) to have them fitted for that period.

I strongly considered getting winter tyres for the 5 series - knowing that the last few winters we have had at least some snow, and the particular geography of where I live (great big hill to ascend before getting to gritted roads) meaning if we did have snow, I'd more than likely be stuck. I didn't in the end, mainly due to having just replaced all four tyres with sporty summer rubber a few weeks before hand, and them being a largely unnecessary expense as I commute by train.

[abaxas]

The point holds if you are only running...say DOS. Having the latest firebreathing card isn't going to make the slightest bit of difference for 99.9% of the time.

Same with UK Winters - we see so little snow on the ground and very little sub zero driving, that despite them being 'better' below 7 degrees Celsius, they are only a marginal improvement over the summer/all seasons tyres fitted to most cars.

If we had a climate comparable to say, Switzerland, then I can see the justification. They face far more snow/sub zero driving across a winter than we do in a number of years of UK winters. It makes sense (and is law, afaik) to have them fitted for that period.

I strongly considered getting winter tyres for the 5 series - knowing that the last few winters we have had at least some snow, and the particular geography of where I live (great big hill to ascend before getting to gritted roads) meaning if we did have snow, I'd more than likely be stuck. I didn't in the end, mainly due to having just replaced all four tyres with sporty summer rubber a few weeks before hand, and them being a largely unnecessary expense as I commute by train.

I was in the same mindset as you. I only got the winter tyres as a mate went from his own car to a company one.

Probably the best thing I've ever done to the car and I'll be spending the money in a couple of years to replace these ones.

[Lowe]

I agree, we need to all go back to our Voodoo 1 3d cards.

No point having anything better as it's just marketing.

Ho ho, a comedian. Water, ducks back etc.

1stRaven's clearly pointed out that it's not a cheap option to swap tyres on existing rims, you need another set of rims to get the best benefit. Wear rates will be higher due to the soft compound. Our average temperature is generally mild across the year.

I just can't see how the cost vs benefit is positive?

/edit - what car are you driving?

[peterb]

<---snip

Tyre companies are just making hay whilst the sun shines. We're having an unusually harsh winter (look at the average winter temperatures in the UK for the last 10 years), and the marketing departments are seeing an opportunity to flog something over here.

There may be an element of truth in that, but the perceived wisdom is that when temperatures are below7C, grip (and economy!) are improved by the use of winter tyres. I looked at buying a set this winter, putting them on steel rims, rather than the alloys (salt and alloys don't really mix well, so it makes sense not to have alloys in winter) but they aren't readily available for my car.

In some countries, eg Switzerland, winter tyres are mandatory in winter (IIRC November through to April) for improved grip on the roads in the cold, not spefically because of snow.

[abaxas]

Ho ho, a comedian. Water, ducks back etc.

1stRaven's clearly pointed out that it's not a cheap option to swap tyres on existing rims, you need another set of rims to get the best benefit. Wear rates will be higher due to the soft compound. Our average temperature is generally mild across the year.

I just can't see how the cost vs benefit is positive?

/edit - what car are you driving?

Audi A3.

Sometimes cost is not the most important factor. Unless you view your own personal safety as being of little or no value at all. Are you seriously saying you are worth less than 500-800 quid for a set of rims and tyres.

Also I like the fact I can go out. I quite enjoy milk in my coffee and fresh bread.

[Guy]

If you plan on buying brand new alloys then yes the cost will be fairly high, but just pick up a set of alloys off ebay, or owners club for a fraction of the price, then just factor in the cost of tyres.

Go for the smallest size you can get away with (brake clearance is usually an issue) hence the smallest I could downsize to was a 17" alloy, and then the price and choice of available tyres opens up considerably.

If you don't feel that running full on winter tyres is for you, you could always go for the compromise of running 'all seasons' the wear rate is reduced in hotter temperatures, granted their ability in the cold stuff isn't as good, but it's certainly better than full on summer stuff.
Also about the wear rates, I know of a few people that have left various winter tyres on into the spring/summer months and the wear isn't as bad as you think. The noise levels were a bit of an issue, but they don't wear down to the cord overnight as some people believe.

When you take into account the multiple years of use you will get out of them, they really don't work out to be that much more of an expense. I think on average 3 maybe 4 winters can be had out of them.
Oh and in cold (sub 7 degrees) the distance they stop in is noticeable, that's coming from first hand experience!

For me though the original reason I went down this route was the regular trips across the channel where they are required by law. I'm not sure I wanted to see what happens when I'm the cause of a traffic hold up and the German Plod discovered this!

[Lowe]

Audi A3.

Sometimes cost is not the most important factor. Unless you view your own personal safety as being of little or no value at all. Are you seriously saying you are worth less than 500-800 quid for a set of rims and tyres.

Also I like the fact I can go out. I quite enjoy milk in my coffee and fresh bread.

Cost isn't an issue no, when I buy tyres I always buy premium top rated rubber because after all the only point of contact is said rubber. But I'm a firm believer in driving to the conditions, in which case I'd be taking my time and giving myself the extra stopping distance required. I'm not expecting to be able to drive at a normal pace in snowy conditions at worst or cold temperatures at best. I've never found myself in a situation where I've been unable to drive due to poor weather and I've had to abandon my car or miss fresh milk and bread. It would have to be an ice rink before I gave up having a go, in which case winter tyres wouldn't be much cop either.

Go for the smallest size you can get away with (brake clearance is usually an issue) hence the smallest I could downsize to was a 17" alloy, and then the price and choice of available tyres opens up considerably.

Therein lies a serious issue for me. 4-pot AP calipers make for limited 'standard' alloy choice.

[abaxas]

Cost isn't an issue no, when I buy tyres I always buy premium top rated rubber because after all the only point of contact is said rubber. But I'm a firm believer in driving to the conditions, in which case I'd be taking my time and giving myself the extra stopping distance required. I'm not expecting to be able to drive at a normal pace in snowy conditions at worst or cold temperatures at best. I've never found myself in a situation where I've been unable to drive due to poor weather and I've had to abandon my car or miss fresh milk and bread. It would have to be an ice rink before I gave up having a go, in which case winter tyres wouldn't be much cop either.




Therein lies a serious issue for me. 4-pot AP calipers make for limited 'standard' alloy choice.

When things get much colder your premium rubber will be as hard as a lump coal with little or no grip. Basically what you are saying is 'I prefer to drive my car on 30 quid a corner wandong 155s in the winter'.

Obviously you can drive to the conditions providing you know what is coming. Problem is that the British weather is erratic at the best of time and unless you live somewhere that is universally flat, one day you are gonna become a cropper.

[Guy]

Therein lies a serious issue for me. 4-pot AP calipers make for limited 'standard' alloy choice.

You would be surprised.
17's fit over a set of a 4-pot Brembo calipers mated to 360mm disks on the Nissan. So I can't see the AP's being being *too* much of an issue.

[Lowe]

When things get much colder your premium rubber will be as hard as a lump coal with little or no grip. Basically what you are saying is 'I prefer to drive my car on 30 quid a corner wandong 155s in the winter'.

Obviously you can drive to the conditions providing you know what is coming. Problem is that the British weather is erratic at the best of time and unless you live somewhere that is universally flat, one day you are gonna become a cropper.

No, that's not what I'm saying and frankly thats a ridiculous statement to make. The other side of that argument is to suggest that when its dry and above 7c (i.e most of the year) that someone on winter or all season tyres won't be able to stop as well as me with my premium tyres, and will be the cause of an accident.

I'm saying I buy my tyres based on the conditions that suits the majority of the weather conditions the UK throws at us. On the very rare occasion that we have severe weather I'm at a higher risk than someone else using winter tyres agreed. Every time you step into a car you're taking a risk and you have to weigh up those risks, and control them as you see fit. My own assessment means I don't see the benefit vs the compromise of cost and wear for such a short period of time. If the UK weather changes significantly or if I were planning a trip to an area where colder conditions were more prevalent or a legal requirement then my assessment would change; but for now, it's not.

[Lowe]

You would be surprised.
17's fit over a set of a 4-pot Brembo calipers mated to 360mm disks on the Nissan. So I can't see the AP's being being *too* much of an issue.

17's are what I run as standard, they're just a tricky offset in VAG fitment. Original Ibiza Cupra alloys are rare as hens teeth, the only ones I've found have been exchange only TT alloys fit, but then you're paying the 'Audi' tax since everyone wants them.

[abaxas]

No, that's not what I'm saying and frankly thats a ridiculous statement to make. The other side of that argument is to suggest that when its dry and above 7c (i.e most of the year) that someone on winter or all season tyres won't be able to stop as well as me with my premium tyres, and will be the cause of an accident.

I'm saying I buy my tyres based on the conditions that suits the majority of the weather conditions the UK throws at us. On the very rare occasion that we have severe weather I'm at a higher risk than someone else using winter tyres agreed. Every time you step into a car you're taking a risk and you have to weigh up those risks, and control them as you see fit. My own assessment means I don't see the benefit vs the compromise of cost and wear for such a short period of time. If the UK weather changes significantly or if I were planning a trip to an area where colder conditions were more prevalent or a legal requirement then my assessment would change; but for now, it's not.

The issue being that for 2-4 months a year, the ambient temperatures at standard commuting times are outside the main operating window for your tyres.

It's not about snow/ice. It is about the rubber being about as much use as a bar of soap.

Tyre temperature (as you know) is one (if not) the most important factor for amount of grip you have between the rubber/tarmac.

I'm off out tonight to a lotus meetup with my summer tyres. I'll be driving like Miss Daisy on my summer tyres. Lets hope it doesnt snow!

[Zak33]

Definitely not hugely better than 2WD in the snow. Just a little bit better when you do lose traction. I can't remember whether it's 3rd gen or 4th gen haldex in the A3.

I extensively tested the abilities of the 4WD in the snow last winter and concluded that on summer tires in last winters conditions, it was almost pointless. More fun than FWD though.

EDIT: It's 2nd gen Haldex in the 8P A3!
2nd EDIT: The Facelift S3 (the one that's got DGS and 5 doors as an option has gen 4 Haldex) Mine was a 3.2 Quattro so had the Gen 2 haldex.

you know what?... Horrible thought... but I think you might have had a technical issue on that car.

In theory, the front wheels only need to turn about 1/7 of a sinlge rotation to begin transfering torque to the rear diff.

maybe you had a sensor out somewhere?

As both front wheels have an ABS sensor, in theory the torque should be moved to the rwar while putting the brake on the slipping wheel and it should occur very very fast... definately in split seconds... un countable time. I'm sure the pump for the oil pressure is suposed to be pre loaded.. so it can kick in dead fast.

I honestly didn't think that BOTH front needed to be slipping for the HALDEX oil pressure to move torque to the rear.

What dya think? Might have been unwell?

[Zak33]

and for anyone thinking an A3 Quattro might not be for them...

http://www.vagtech.co.uk/index.php/p...ransmission/59

they're popular.....for Golf R32 as well.

[Konan555]

Problem is, who in their right mind is going to buy winter tyres and a spare set of wheels for what honestly accounts for perhaps less than a week a year?

I

• managed 2nd set of wheels for £120.
  
• Winter tyres I opted for where a little cheaper than what I usually run per corner.
  
• They took 1mm total tread depth off last year in the 3 months I had them on. This is around the same as I observe from my regular tyres.

So it's £120 for me, which I feel is a sound decision made by someone in their right mind!

Obviously it's dependent on other variables. My summer tyres are UHP types an prooved absolutely leathal in snow and ice last year, no mattery how carefully I drove. My old XR4x4 was on a more regular family saloon type tyre with more void/tread blocks and I didn't feel the need for winter tyres.

I also have to drive on a lot of uncleared B roads. Even in the breif stint of Ice and snow this weekend, I was getting around without an issue whilst X-trails on bridgestone dualers where struggling.

Of course, if it gets really bad, I'll fetch out the Cherokee. It's probably worse on Snow than the Impreza is with it's winter shoes on, but it's the other people I worry about. I'd rather someone have a little mishap in to the wing of the jeep