F1 suspension geometry ???

[RocketmanX]

I've been trying to get a good pic of the front and rear suspension of an F1 car, prefferably a Ferarri or Renault, to study the geometry a bit. An actual schematic would be WAY better but I imagine those to be non-existent except in the respective camps of the 2 aforementioned teams and their engineers. So, a pic will have to do. Drawings of previous years would be good as well.

While my offset, left-turning, ciurcle jerker may travel a whole 2" in compression compared to an F1 cars very minimal movement, the real game in my sport is the same. The car must turn well under full compression but we have minimal downforce, almost all mechanical grip, to make the car turn. Of course the most crucial spot is in the middle of the turn (American oval racer for apex ) while the chassis is under full load and the suspension is completely compressed and the frame is barely scraping the track. We run aroun 3- 3 1/2" ride heights due to body roll since we have to run very minimal, almost wedge shaped aluminum skins for bodies. Our cars are also heavily offset for left side weight bias and minimal body roll. My particular car weighs in at 2500 lbs. even as the rules mandate that as the minimum weight for my engine, a 9:1 compression ratio 358 c.i. (but has the same power, 680-720HP, as the other "Big" high comp. big cube motors- like 410 ci/ 13:1 which have to weigh 200 lbs. heavier )

The braking power is fairly close to an F1 car although we are heavier and abuse the brakes harder because of that fact. Some of us are running Carbon/Carbon brakes but with the corners only about a 1/16th of a mile apart there isn't much time for cool down so keeping heat in them but not too much, is a trick. We only have to brake from around 120 mph down to around 80 in close to 15 feet. Not wuite F1 prowess but WAY better than any street car you've ever driven.

Ok, back to the question. Anyone know where to find such pics? I have been looking at everything. TIVO has been most useful as I can slow-mo or stop some of the great shots they give of cars exiting corners. Granted these aren't exactly scientific measurements but give me a good idea of relative to each part how there geometry is. Relative to the instant center (where the center of gravity and roll centers come together and the point where the car pivots around or the spot that doesn't hardly move at all) would be the best but not gonna be found I'm sure.
I figure some of you hardcore F1 guys may know where to find some more in depth info. I'd like to analyze what differences there are between what they have and we do. My class is the most open class, or the F1 of local racing if you will, so we are pretty open to wild chassis/suspension designs. We are limited to one shock per wheel though. The rear has to be a single axle aswell
I'm in the process of putting in my surface plate (jig) in my shop nad am going to build my own chassis with something I haven't seen before and hopefully some new front end geomotry because of it. Our chassis' now are not able to utulize very long uppers or lowers due to engine placement etc... which the enegine placement is fixed by the rules but frame location is not
Also, the double wishbone would be a great design on an oval racer if the arm lengths were long enough. This is where my desire for F1 placement/geometry comes from.

Thanks for any help, ideas are welcome as well.

[Zak33]

you're gonna need more than piccies mate...you'll need measurements to within a millimetre.

As the car rolls and the camber changes, the load on the tyre is totally different to standing still, right?
With 2inch compression, and shorter wishbones, the effect must be reasonably severe, but how to design such a thing? Blimey....

ok..on it

[Zak33]

think maybe the important word in searching might be SCUDERIA

This lot have forums too.....might be worth dazzling them with your charm matey

http://www.thescuderia.net

[IainB]

Woah - building your own chassis... now that’s cool
Not sure if it would be the same program, but the drag chassis builders over here run a program that calculates angles of dangle etc etc - not something I would like to attempt by hand (im assuming its a tubular chassis?).
I know my chassis builder used it to sort the new front end on mine.
If it can be utilised (or indeed if you think it will be of any use) I will make some enquiries and let you know what its called.
Cheers
Iain

[XTR]

http://www.x-ess.net/gallery/gp


maybe some pictures here......... from David's trip to the F1........

[RocketmanX]

Thanks for the replies guys

And I'm accutely aware of the need for fine measurements Zak, I'm just trying to get a ballpark idea of what they are doing. The A-arm locations on circle track cars are nowhere near to ideal due to chassis build limitations. IF you remove some of those limiting factors, like lower frame rail locations, I am wondering the direction to go with A-arm (or wishbones if possible but maybe not desirable) locations and relative angles.
I currently have chassis geometry software by Bob Bowles, considered one of the best in the US. On a side note, the first time we used it (after a week of centerlines placements and measuring ) we found the combination we had was within 5 lbs. per spring of the programs output, angles were all identical as well for this chassis. Of course we knew it was close because of how it worked.
The program calculates roll center, Ackerman, CG, Instant Center, etc...... It also allows you to change A-arm lenths and mount points to see what effects they hae on roll center etc...... Again, all circle track cars are built by self taught chassis builders ( a small few use comps and engineers but the best are the ones who test and drive there own stuff like the guy who built my current fav chassis) who tweak there designs by testing and tweaking. Unfortunately in circle track there is no "ideal" roll center etc.... It is, as in all racing, a culmination of all parts summed in how they work together, change one piece and the whole thing could go out into left field. The roll centers from 3 different cars will all be quite different, and obviously with unequal lentgh A-arms right side to left side, the roll center is never in the center as with road course cars.

My point with this running off at the mouth is that there is a big room for tweaking and if I have a somewhat general idea of say parallelism between wishbones etc... ,not acute measurements necessarily, then I can start from there. It will be a whole new design for my kind of car. And one I've been drawing and rethinking for some 3 years now. My main chassis will be a mostly copied rear version of my current main chassis since it works so well and the front end will be highly redesigned with a much lower CG and longer Arm lengths and more "perfect" mount points. The upper A's are somewhat limited in current circel track cars due to the lower frame rail "kick-up" at the back of the engine where it come from 3 1/2" off the ground up to about 12" due to exhaust and oil pan/engine restraints. It's these restraints I have a plan for which will allow me to mount the uppers almost anywhere I wish as well as giving much more flexibility and length to the lowers.

This may all prove futile but it will be fun trying.

I've changed geometry, rebuilt frame sections and done everything but build the whole chassis from scratch only due to the lack of the absolute must have tool, a Jig or "surface" plate. An uneven concrete floor is no place to build a proper chassis and I don't so anything "half-assed", I'm kind of a prick that way. It's the one trait my team gets irritated with But my most protected asset, at least and asset in my mind

[Dakaras]

Blimey!!!!!!!!!