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Thread: RE: Zaks 'tyre width does not increase grip' thread.

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    F.A.S.T. Butuz's Avatar
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    RE: Zaks 'tyre width does not increase grip' thread.

    Ok - so having read through the grip i understand that if you increase the width you decrease the pressure per square inch of the tyres. Thats fine.

    So what your saying Zak, is that my 205 eagle F1's give the same level of grip as if i had 255 eagle F1's. But my 205 eagle F1's will wear out faster than if i had 255's on there. So what i need to find, is the width of tyre that gives the best value with regards to wearing out.

    So in the case of eagle F1's, 205x16 ones are £72 and 215x16 ones are £115 so putting the 215's on would mean they give the same grip but wear out a little bit slower, BUT the initial asking price is so inflated due to them being a uncommon size, that the 205's would be better value overall as even tho they wear down a bit faster theyre so much cheaper.

    Looking at 225x17's theyre actually quite cheap at £91 as they are a common size, so if i had 17" wheels and 225x17's it would work out better value to get them compared to getting 215'16's as the 225's are wider so will wear out slower, but they are also cheaper to buy in the first place.

    But now we need to guess the wear rates between the 205x16 and 225x17. The 225's are quite a bit wider, but are quite a bit more expensive, but given that 17's look better, and have lower profile side walls, they may actually give better handling due to less side wall movement? So the 225x17's may actually be the ones to go for in the long term?

    Now the other thing i was thinking about is in the wet. Sureley given the same model of tyre, the wider it is, the wider the grooves and channels are, so the more water will be able to be displaced, so the better the grip in the wet? So even though 205's give the same amount of friction as 225's, in the wet, the 225's should be able to work more efficiently thus giving more grip? Is that correct?

    So with 225x17's not only would i get slightly better handling due to lower profile, i would get more grip in the wet, an they would look better too, and theyre not too costly, and they should last longer than my current 205x16's

    Am i on the right line here or am i way off the apex?

    And can i just ask one question. If zak's theory is right, and all the above holds true, how come moving from wet tyres, to slicks increases grip in the dry? Sureley the slight extra surface area that loosing the groves gives, is offset by a slight decrease in the pressure per square inch of rubber? Or are wets a different compound to dry?

    Anyone?

    Butuz

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    bored out of my tiny mind malfunction's Avatar
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    Haven't read the other thread (will do in a minute) but I would suspect slicks are softer...

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    Weird... Just read the thread and understand what Zak's getting at but am left with some mental confusion...

    Will post in that thread when I've had a bit more of a think!

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    Trying to compare a road tyre to a slick is a little like trying to compare a go kart with an F1 car.

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    HEXUS.timelord. Zak33's Avatar
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    ok. to get better grip is one thing. But to get better life is something else.

    In water to have more grooves IS good, but then you also have more ridges/blocks so you are in the same boat (liteally if its deep water)

    In F1 the cars had to go slower. So they narrowed tyres. Guess what. It wasn't to reduce grip in the way the public thought.

    It was so they had to use harder compound tyres to last the distance. But the tyre companies were already ahead of them. The compounds are getting better by the year.

    Larger tyres dont heat up so fast either...heat is good ...to a point...but then they overheat and loose it all...grip..rubber....

    so narrow tyres slowed the F1 boys (for about 3 races)
    Last edited by Zak33; 16-12-2004 at 01:49 PM. Reason: bit more added

    Quote Originally Posted by Advice Trinity by Knoxville
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    I think Butuz was talking about how come racing slicks are better than racing wet tyres... Not better than normal road tyres. (in reply to jiff's post)

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    HEXUS.timelord. Zak33's Avatar
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    just realised what you are thinking of doing: getting bigger wheels (17's over 16's) AND wider tyres.

    OK...hold up fella

    lets take a tyre size as an example. 205/45 R16. You need to know hwat that all means.

    45% of the WIDTH of the tyre ie 92.25 millimetres is the height of the tyre walls.

    So going to a 225/45 would give you taler tyre walls ie 101.25 millimetres.

    THAT means your tyres are BIGGER CIRCUMFERENCE. That means they are taller geared.

    PLUS having 17 inch wheels means THEY are bigger circumferance too.

    1 inch = 2.2 cm x Pi = 6.9 cm PLUS 0.9 increase in tyre wal x Pi = 2.8 cm more

    So the tyres will be nearly 10 cm bigger around the circumference.

    that gives you TALL gears, 1st gear is now 2nd

    Quote Originally Posted by Advice Trinity by Knoxville
    "The second you aren't paying attention to the tool you're using, it will take your fingers from you. It does not know sympathy." |
    "If you don't gaffer it, it will gaffer you" | "Belt and braces"

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    In the wet F1 cars sometimes struggle to keep up with the safety car. Reason being they have wider tyres and less weight - the tyre doesn't cut through water (even with their amazing treads) and they aquaplane. So you won't necesserilly want wider tyres in the wet.
    Tough on mirrors, tough on the causes of mirrors.

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    HEXUS.timelord. Zak33's Avatar
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    and in snow ya want narrow skinny hard bitches with studs

    In fact if it snows I always go home in the car with skinniest tyres...

    Nova 1.2 with 145/80's is the best sno wcar..period.

    Good handbrake, direct steering, good torque, and skinny arse tyres

    Quote Originally Posted by Advice Trinity by Knoxville
    "The second you aren't paying attention to the tool you're using, it will take your fingers from you. It does not know sympathy." |
    "If you don't gaffer it, it will gaffer you" | "Belt and braces"

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    HEXUS.timelord. Zak33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by malfunction
    I think Butuz was talking about how come racing slicks are better than racing wet tyres... Not better than normal road tyres. (in reply to jiff's post)

    ohhh....I can explain this one perfectly cos I've done this

    Racing Wet tyres are AWESOME....just AWESOME.....for 1 mile.

    Nothing on earth like a Wet tyre in the dry....nothing to do with the grooves...they're just SO SOFT....

    but then they get HOT....you have to aim for puddles to keep the buggers in one bit...they just dissintegrate

    The reason slicks are slick is so their is more tyre to LAST....cutting grooves wastes tyre...and trust me...they do just fall apart

    However....grove do have a place...and they help stones and grit to be displaced....true slicks are for pure, clean, swept tracks only. The lumps of rubber roll of your own tyres and all those around you as you corner...its what they call Marbles on telly....if you go off the racing line you hit these rolled up micro balls of cold rubber and lose all grip. On rally stage they are everywhere.

    if you hit those with slicks the tyre and your car moves aside until they come out the other side.

    With grooves in the tyres, the crap has somewhere to lodge....in the grooves and you keep grip...it comes out later on

    Quote Originally Posted by Advice Trinity by Knoxville
    "The second you aren't paying attention to the tool you're using, it will take your fingers from you. It does not know sympathy." |
    "If you don't gaffer it, it will gaffer you" | "Belt and braces"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zak33
    just realised what you are thinking of doing: getting bigger wheels (17's over 16's) AND wider tyres.

    OK...hold up fella

    lets take a tyre size as an example. 205/45 R16. You need to know hwat that all means.

    45% of the WIDTH of the tyre ie 92.25 millimetres is the height of the tyre walls.

    So going to a 225/45 would give you taler tyre walls ie 101.25 millimetres.
    Zak the 16's are 205x55 and the 17's would be 225x45 - would that work out the same overall circumference?

    Butuz

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    Quote Originally Posted by Butuz
    Zak the 16's are 205x55 and the 17's would be 225x45 - would that work out the same overall circumference?

    Butuz
    That would work out :
    Old Circumference = 1985.17 mm
    New Circumference = 1992.71 mm
    Difference = 7.54 mm OR 0.38%
    So when the speedo reads 70 MPH you'd actually be doing 70.27 MPH

    Pretty Close that !
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    *Disclaimer* - The contents of this message are not necessarily my own opinions,thoughts or views... they may belong to the voices in my head!

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    HEXUS.timelord. Zak33's Avatar
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    thats ok then

    Quote Originally Posted by Advice Trinity by Knoxville
    "The second you aren't paying attention to the tool you're using, it will take your fingers from you. It does not know sympathy." |
    "If you don't gaffer it, it will gaffer you" | "Belt and braces"

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    DR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zak33
    and in snow ya want narrow skinny hard bitches with studs

    In fact if it snows I always go home in the car with skinniest tyres...

    Nova 1.2 with 145/80's is the best sno wcar..period.

    Good handbrake, direct steering, good torque, and skinny arse tyres

    are you sure?

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    HEXUS.timelord. Zak33's Avatar
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    yup....I am SURE

    this side of evolution 4x4

    Quote Originally Posted by Advice Trinity by Knoxville
    "The second you aren't paying attention to the tool you're using, it will take your fingers from you. It does not know sympathy." |
    "If you don't gaffer it, it will gaffer you" | "Belt and braces"

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