Tesla Model 3 event

[Ttaskmaster]

What the law certainly used to say what that specific things were illegal, and that anything other that those wasn't. What used to be banned and this is from (painful) memory not having looked it up, was "two-tome horns, sirens and claxons".

Cool story bro...

Actually, that is a cool story and if ever I get one of my dream 80s cars, I'd love to put a multi-tone tune-playing horn on it, probably wired to a separate circuit, just for the horror factor... and to go with the CB radio, of course.

However, I was led to believe (by Mr EV here at work, again, who will NOT shut up about the darn things) that it was the regulation prohibiting use of your horn between 11.30 pm and 7.00 am that also applied to any other noisemakers on a vehicle and was thus why you couldn't even get one factory-fitted as standard.

[Noxvayl]

I don't have 2 grand lying around and I don't have the money to buy the petrol car on top, which I assume is not part of the spreadsheet total?
Plus I lose boot space and I don't think half the fuel stations I visit on a regular basis even have LPG still (if they had it to begin with).
Sorry, not viable, especially when losing 10% MPG on a petrol car's economy... Free diesel car still wins.


Isn't that one of the big problems with current electric vehicles - They're stupidly quiet, so people don't hear them coming, pulling out of parking spaces, etc... but it's also illegal to add any noisemaking devices due to the horn rules, or somesuch?

Capital cost is included, calcs done for 1 year ROI to see which option is best. £3000 was what I paid for my 3 series.

[Saracen]

.... Free diesel car still wins.

....

But don't you think that's a bit of a false argument. Not everybody has access to free diesel cars, for a start. Surely, the comparison has to be like-for-like?

For instance, my up-coming decision is two-fold ...

1) Do I replace my current car in the short-term future, at all? And,

2) If I do, with what?

Self-evidently, if you budget is, for example, £500 or less, then the "with what" options are restricted to what that will buy. You either accept that, or somehow up the budget. If your life circumstances are such that, at least for now, you can't increase that (sufficiently) then you're in company with a very large number of other people that can't afford any electric car, or for that matter, any new car or reasonably new used one.

It may be that you could increase your car budget IF prepared to sacrifice other things, like holidays, takeaway food, eating in restaurants, season tickets to the football, your extensive Lladro figurine collection, take the kids out of fancy pfivate schools, or whatever else you spend money on but don't have to. Or it may be that, again like lots of people, the budget is trimmed to the bone with no 'fat' spent on indulgences that could be cut. In which case an electric car is about as viable as any new car, or an LPG conversion, or a Ferrari, or a first-class 6 month vacation to Tahiti.

Some people are wealthy enough to buy an expensive item like a car without considering the cost. Some can't do it at all. But most of us have to work out what it'll cost, what benefits we gain, and what 'opportunity cost' we pay by no longer having that money to do something else with.

[Saracen]

Cool story bro...

Actually, that is a cool story and if ever I get one of my dream 80s cars, I'd love to put a multi-tone tune-playing horn on it, probably wired to a separate circuit, just for the horror factor... and to go with the CB radio, of course.

However, I was led to believe (by Mr EV here at work, again, who will NOT shut up about the darn things) that it was the regulation prohibiting use of your horn between 11.30 pm and 7.00 am that also applied to any other noisemakers on a vehicle and was thus why you couldn't even get one factory-fitted as standard.

Ah, factory-fitted? That, I guess, is up to what manufacturers can legally fit, and choose to. As I understand it, whatever you have fitted, manufacturer or not, there are laws about hours of use.

CB radio? Class-A amateur licence here, I'll have you know.

[DanceswithUnix]

Isn't that one of the big problems with current electric vehicles - They're stupidly quiet, so people don't hear them coming, pulling out of parking spaces, etc... but it's also illegal to add any noisemaking devices due to the horn rules, or somesuch?

tldr: People are idiots and don't watch where they are going, and by their nature don't want to take responsibility for their idiot actions.


I have recently watched a pedestrian not bother to check for traffic and walk off a pavement of a main road across a side-street, forcing a police car who was correctly indicating a turn to emergency stop rather than run her over. Thankfully the police driver saw the risk and was prepared for what happened, but the pedestrian wandered off completely oblivious of the danger she had put herself in by not looking before crossing the road.

I also recently watched a cyclist overtaking the line of traffic I was in get to a pedestrian island in the road and just swerve out into the other lane right in front of a bloody great 4x4 coming the other way where again the reactions of the driver saved the idiot who wasn't watching where they were going. Felt really sorry for the driver of the 4x4, they were stationary in the road for probably half a minute recovering from the shock of that one, it wasn't really something you would predict.

As a cyclist in an area well provided for for cyclists, I get people staring at their mobile phones wandering down the kerb onto the cycle path probably two or three times a day. You have to cycle slowly and with a jumpy paranoia.

I could happily live with quieter cars though. Some years back I was living in an area that got mildly flooded. Not enough to cause any lasting damage, but it flooded local junctions and stopped traffic for a few days. The area was eerily quiet with birdsong rather than engines the dominant noise. It was nice, less traffic noise would be a good thing IMHO.

[Ttaskmaster]

But don't you think that's a bit of a false argument. Not everybody has access to free diesel cars, for a start. Surely, the comparison has to be like-for-like?

Not everybody has three grand with which to purchase a petrol car and get it LPG-converted...
For my circumstances, that was indeed a like-for-like and thus it's not an option.

As I understand it, whatever you have fitted, manufacturer or not, there are laws about hours of use.

And that's the bit I was getting at, ie the reason why EVs cannot be fitted with noisemakers.

CB radio? Class-A amateur licence here, I'll have you know.

I have two CB radios, one a Midland 48 Plus Multi, that I would love to fit to my car if ever I get the time. The Midland 42 is already fitted to my bike.

tldr: People are idiots and don't watch where they are going, and by their nature don't want to take responsibility for their idiot actions.

Roads have some pretty blind corners and drivers travel at 87mph along 40mph roads... I can hear an ICE car coming LONG before it hoons round the corner with teh potential to mow me down.
What's your point?

Drivers also like to sit in blind spots a lot, where the only thing saving either me or them has been my ability to hear their engine.

I was thinking more of places like car parks, though, where an EV with all it's amaaaaaaaayzing torque can go from deathly silent and still, to hooning out of a space before you realise. ICEs at least rev up a touch as they move, have exhausts and even a slight vibration that is detectable. Even just letting the clutch out changed the engine note and gives a clue.

Personally, I'd rather have a 1960s Dodge engine sound, or an MTT turbine noise!

[DanceswithUnix]

What's your point?

That many many people don't make use of eyes or ears already. In a car park, the tyre noise should be enough as you know there is a danger of moving cars nearby. These things are relative, compared to my kit car your diesel is silent, that doesn't mean we should all go thundering around in a big V6 with minimal exhaust muffling in case it woke up some dozy pedestrian enough to look up from their smartphone and not step out in front of a moving vehicle.

I used to quite regularly walk through a car park at the same time as someone was arriving or leaving in a Pious as we worked similar hours. The car would often be operating electric only and fairly quiet, but the motors do make a whining noise and the tyres still scrunch down the tarmac. I think if people see that as a problem, then they are looking for problems when actually it would be a nicer standard if we can get there.

[directhex]

FWIW, several EVs have noisemakers as a factory option - paid! "Pedestrian Safety Package" or somesuch.

And noisemakers are common. Most large petrol cars in the US are fitted with them, as buyers wouldn't like the authentic noise of modern high-efficiency engines - so they pipe fake engine roar through the stereo

[Ttaskmaster]

That many many people don't make use of eyes or ears already.

But many others do, being perfectly sensible people who don't walk around buried in their smartphone, yet for various still don't or cannot hear very quiet vehicles approaching.
You cannot condemn one section of the populace based on how another section are already cannon-fodder... can you?
If you actually can, then remove all road crossings, because some people just run across wherever is convenient anyway and only a few get squished...

In a car park, the tyre noise should be enough as you know there is a danger of moving cars nearby.

Tyre noise is too late and too quiet. Running engine is needed.
Relying on tyre noise means the car has already started pulling out of a space and gives you maybe two seconds before impact in which to react...

These things are relative

But there will be a common measure, that being the average human ear. Same way you can have exhausts that are too loud.

I think if people see that as a problem, then they are looking for problems when actually it would be a nicer standard if we can get there.

I'm sure a nice quiet car park with accoustic reverb does make it easy to hear a whine and gentle scrunch of tyres... How would it be around busy roads, though? And by busy, I mean with road works and children playing and people talking, birds tweeting (both kinds), music playing, maybe lawn mowers running... Stuff more than just other traffic.
I think those who don't see it as a problem will be running people over.

And again, plenty of times I've heard a vehicle far sooner than seen it and a few where I've only been able to detect it peripherally because it's made a noise.... and I was never behaving 'out of spec', as it were, during these events.

FWIW, several EVs have noisemakers as a factory option - paid! "Pedestrian Safety Package" or somesuch.

And yet the UK government apparently has studies that show a quiet car does not lead to increased pedestrian vehicle involvement densities.... despite Guide Dog associations lobbying for mandatory noise makers on quiet cars (not just EVs, either).

Most large petrol cars in the US

Are not subject to UK regulations... Sorry. No offense.
But anyway, I'd much rather have noisemakers as well as the choice of noise.

[Xlucine]

Modern cars are spookily quiet compared to vintage machines. It's easy to forget how far they've come until a 'classic' car drives past. And the smell of burnt oil...

...that doesn't mean we should all go thundering around in a big V6 with minimal exhaust muffling in case it woke up some dozy pedestrian enough to look up from their smartphone and not step out in front of a moving vehicle...

Many motorcyclists would disagree quite vehemently!

[Saracen]

....

And that's the bit I was getting at, ie the reason why EVs cannot be fitted with noisemakers.

...

You may be right that they can't be, but I don't get the logic. The restrictions on horn usage etc is about LOUD noises, not engine noises, and despite that, horns are still fitted to cars. You're just not allowed to use them at certain times (IIRC). EV noisemmakers would, presumably, simulate engine noise, not horns.

[directhex]

EV noisemmakers would, presumably, simulate engine noise,

Such narrow thinking...

[DanceswithUnix]

Relying on tyre noise means the car has already started pulling out of a space and gives you maybe two seconds before impact in which to react...

... maybe lawn mowers running...

Just pulling out of a space, the car's parking proximity sensors will be screeching that you are there. Unless the driver is going to pull away like they just did a bank job, in which case all bets are off anyway but thankfully people don't usually do that.

As for the lawn mower, well mine is battery powered electric so I won't be adding much to that

Modern cars are spookily quiet compared to vintage machines. It's easy to forget how far they've come until a 'classic' car drives past. And the smell of burnt oil...

Many motorcyclists would disagree quite vehemently!

It is the smell of petrol from old cars that always gets me, you just forget how cars in the 70's had a reservoir of the stuff in the carbs that evaporated when parked, and how that was normal.

The problem with loud engines is that not all engines are a nice noise. My kit car is loud enough that I am not allowed on most racing circuits despite it being road legal (it was put through approvals that loud) and I keep meaning to quieten it down a bit, but at least a 60 degree V6 in a nice looking car gets smiles from most people.

[badass]

but at least a 60 degree V6 in a nice looking car gets smiles from most people.

Best sounding V6 configuration Just that little bit smoother than all of these cost saving "V8's with 2 cylinders cut off"

[Ttaskmaster]

You may be right that they can't be, but I don't get the logic. The restrictions on horn usage etc is about LOUD noises, not engine noises, and despite that, horns are still fitted to cars. You're just not allowed to use them at certain times (IIRC). EV noisemmakers would, presumably, simulate engine noise, not horns.

I think it's lumping it in with artificial noise still... same device classification, or summat. I don't know, I wasn't paying that much attention to Mr EV's latest lecture...

Unless the driver is going to pull away like they just did a bank job, in which case all bets are off anyway but thankfully people don't usually do that.

I see some pretty reckless pulling out and pulling in to parking spaces often enough, usually drivers who think they can park "Like a Boss"...
Plus you have people who "don't use their eyes" because they're actually blind, or visually impaired.

As for the lawn mower, well mine is battery powered electric so I won't be adding much to that

It is utterly silent, yes?

The problem with loud engines is that not all engines are a nice noise.

So buy a Harley. HD spent billions on research to find the most psychologically pleasing engine note.
Also, loud does not mean deafening. There are still restrictions...

[Dashers]

And how much up front to buy the car, in any capacity?
Insurance?
Tax?

£0 upfront. I literally pay £175/m with no up-front cash on a PCP deal. At the end of three years, I can refinance or give it back, just with any PCP deal on any engine type. It's just not as eye-wateringly expensive as one (myself included) initially thought. I'll be honest, I went in for the wife and was going to laugh it off as too expensive, but it's cheap as chips.

Tax? What tax? EVs don't (currently) pay any tax.

Insurance is insurance, it's cheaper than my petrol car. But there are so many other things that go into insurance such as drivers, mileage, usage and location, you can only compare that with yourself.

I'm sure it's not more expensive, any more than a gasket is... but look at a Ford gasket, then see how much more the same thing costs to get for a Merc.
"Now this, see, gov.... this here is one of them new Electric Vehicles. Latest tech, they are and highest spec. Cutting edge. Unfortunately that kind of stuff is still very expensive, you see.... "

Once again, Money is the biggest factor in all this.

Conjecture. Where parts can be shared they will be shared, it's cheaper for the manufacturer and as a result if you think the dealer is having a laugh, you can just go buy the same part from another car. This doesn't actually happen though. Brands like Audi share a lot of parts with VW, and it doesn't matter if you walk into a Skoda or Audi garage, you pay the same price for common parts.

Yes, there is likely to be an increase in premium on EV-specific things whilst the economies of scales aren't there, but as noted numerous times in this thread, electric motors are far simpler, are easier to manufacture and have much less that can go wrong.

If you don't want to pay a premium on the parts bin, don't buy a Merc, but the same applies to a petrol car.