20 years car development - huge leaps and small backward steps

Hello all

A few months ago I inflicted a 19 year old VW Polo upon myself.

Having spent way in excess of 20 years of driving new cars every day, changing them more often than any regular member of the public could possibly do, i hooked up with a well looked after old Polo and I have lived with her every day since.

40 miles each way commute, Motorways some day, & others I choose cross country routes, I've done enough miles since early summer to honestly miss some things from modern cars, and utterly enjoy other things from an old car.

The old Polo doesn't have ABS. I've had to relearn cadence braking. This was a "thing". In a modern car, under emergency braking you need to push HARD and not let up. You need to push and push more. Let the ABS and the ESP do their thing... that was NOT the way non-ABS cars were ever driven. That invokes immediate front wheel lock up, no steering, sliding straight on and into things. It takes time to relearn. Sometimes it involves empty quiet wet roads and practice. It has to.. because old cars don't have the grip of new cars.

This brings me to chassis design, shock absorber quality, bushes and anti roll bar developments, multi link suspension, and .. frankly.. Chalk and Cheese.

It's not that they're worn out. They're in prime condition actually.. similar to new....but they were rubbish when new.

A modern car grips like velcro on your mum's jumper compared to an old car. It's not a tyre thing. The Polo came with excellent condition Uniroyals, very new and in pristine condition. It now has all seasons on the front axle. Neither of these are the reason it's not as good as a modern car. It's just that modern cars grip so much better. Everything about a new small hatch invokes different levels of grip.

So .. I miss ABS and grip!

But I don't miss a lack traction control or ESP (Electronic Stability Program) or it's sister systems. I hated modern cars cutting out my throttle inputs- I hated it. Utterly. And now I have none and it's soo much better. It's not a quick car, but with the lack of front end grip from crap caster and camber angles as descrbed above, it's so much nicer to guide gently out of tight corners. When I pull away a tad sharply, the front tyre spins up and it's up to me to sort it out. It's called driving. I enjoy that.

The electric windows broke. I cant open them. I miss opening windows... talking to a person on the kerb... paying at a car park entry... I miss that. Now clearly this isn't old vs new.. this is shagged out vs working. But I do miss manual window winders. Because to fix the elec windows costs more than the car's worth. I know I miss manual ones because the manual sunroof works and it works well. Manually for the win.

I have working electric mirrors. Both work beautifully... but I don't need them to move electrically often. What I DO miss is electric heating. Man .. oh man.. I miss electrically heated mirrors.

In the hot hot summer we had, I was stuck in traffic, surrounded by Air Con cars and buses, vomiting out hot air, from under their engine bays.. while I sweated it out in the old Polo, sunroof open to help the air flow and catch some rays on my dehydrating head. Do I miss Air con? Not really....Honestly... it WAS horrible but it was only horrible for a few days.

I certainly don't miss the bloody uselss "Climate Control" that moderm mid range cars come with... cos it doesnt' work properly and never has. I like to turn the tempo dial myself and decide if it's ok.

Little cars warm up fast. I like that. It still applies. Modern or otherwise.

I miss headlight on warning buzzers. Why on earth it doesnt' have it I have no idea... but I have left my lights on lots of times, luckily spotted by colleagues and saving me from the jump leads of shame. I have learned to turn the headlight control everytme I leave the car. It's automatic now.

I don't miss adjustable intermittent wipe and I certanly don't miss rain sensors. This has non-adjustable intermitant and 2 other speeds. And they work like a charm. The rear squirter is below the widow, squirting up and so it never dribbles down after wiping. That's a "thing" that works, that is.

I miss reach-adjustable steering wheels. I don't mind it just going up and down to fit knees under.... ...but reach is so important. I miss that. A lot.

I don't miss tiny boot space. This Polo has a vast boot. Not very long but WIDe and DEEP. Old cars all have larger boots because they have less padding, less box sectioning, less carpets, etc. The Polo boot is deep and large.

I like mechanical power steering. It's not electronic. It runs from a belt and pump from the engine. It never stops being Power Assisted Steering if the engine is running no matter how much elbow twirling is occuring.

I miss the size of modern small cars on Motorways. This car is genuinely small... and it's not the smallest of it's era. But compared to modern small cars, it's tiny. I'm not sure what it would be like in a biggy on the motorway... not pretty I think. But I cant have it all......

I'm happy with the Fuel Consumption. It's an old 1.4i and I get an average of 47mpg from it with no effort. If I focus on MPG it will exceed 50mpg. That's a size / body weight thing which I was slagging off only 1 sentence ago. Cant have it all.

I don't miss washing it. I don't miss worrying about hedge rows and scratches. I don't miss parking it miles from everyone to keep it mint. I just dump this. It's a very freeing feeling..... branches sticking out of hedges hold no fears. The tank of fuel is worth more than the car......

but that's the thing. It's not really.

The car is worth a fortune to me now. It's old, it's dirty but it's really quite... competent. It's easy to drive. It re-teaches respect. It pulls aways on wet junctions really really badly. It occassionally understeers like a bitch (on Continentals or on all season budget brand)... but it poodles along at 70 with a whiff of throttle.. a boot full of stuff. I value stpping distances now more than the Merc driver who just slipped in the safe space. If he stops hard now I will hit him... I literally wont' stop as fast as him and I will be to blame. I displike that. I have to keep recreating stopping spaces and then they get taken.

I'd like some more grip laterally, under id steering lock... but the rear is soooo secure.. it understeers so much,.... it's doing what it was invented to do. Bore your pants off and not kill you.

20 years of devlopment has been, frankly, immense.

I'd like ABS, I'd like reach adjustable steering and I'd love heated mirror glass please. Some small front grip increase would be neat too. But much of the rest is.... oddly better than a modern car.

Go figure.

How skinny are your tyres?

My wife had a 1996 FIAT Punto with the 1.2l 85bhp engine in it, and the thing stuck like glue on the corners. Honestly, it was kind of dull to drive as you could chuck it into a corner and it just sort of stuck. Before then she had an Uno 45 with skinny little tyres which slid around all over the place even in the dry which was much more fun :D

I don't think car handling has changed that much apart from the lack of cheap rear wheel drive options these days (I had a Chrysler Sunbeam as one of my early drives). Perhaps you just need a better handling old car ;)

176/65's

it's not the tyre size, I assue you. I've driven plenty of rally cars on 175's with plenty grip.
but your Fiat comparison is a good example of chassis improvements. Uno 45's were floppy horrible things,.. Punto was a good chassis all round!

Traction control... I got used to it, being able to drive like an idiot around corners without having to worry. I was slightly surprised to find myself facing the wrong way hugging a crash barrier after buying a car without traction control. What's wrong with the option of having it on or off? Not having it means people like me will just crash it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zak33

The old Polo doesn't have ABS. I've had to relearn cadence braking. This was a "thing".

---

*Looks over at motorcycle.
Wonders what ABS stands for.
Shrugs shoulders and goes off for a blatt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zak33

But I do miss manual window winders. Because to fix the elec windows costs more than the car's worth.

---

What's broken on them?
Might be a cheap 2nd hand part... Did my own window reg for about £15, VAG model like yours.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zak33

What I DO miss is electric heating. Man .. oh man.. I miss electrically heated mirrors.

---

Quick squirt of de-icer. Works faster than my heated mirrors, certainly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zak33

I certainly don't miss the bloody uselss "Climate Control" that moderm mid range cars come with... cos it doesnt' work properly and never has. I like to turn the tempo dial myself and decide if it's ok.

---

Woah, careful now... ISTR getting burned at the stake for those exact same sentiments!! :lol:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zak33

I miss headlight on warning buzzers. Why on earth it doesnt' have it I have no idea...

---

Neither do I. I've known even cheap cars that had those from the early 80s. Is your microswitch broken? That's another common VAG one - The microswitch is in the driver's door unit, which also affects the door light (aka the red/white puddle light) and the covenience light in the roof. Bit involved to get to, but easily replaced with a generic part.
Or could just be broken wiring/buzzer....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zak33

I value stpping distances now more than the Merc driver who just slipped in the safe space. If he stops hard now I will hit him... I literally wont' stop as fast as him and I will be to blame. I displike that. I have to keep recreating stopping spaces and then they get taken.

---

I feel your pain on that one, I really do!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zak33

20 years of devlopment has been, frankly, immense.

---

Not sure I'd have used that word... soul-destroying, perhaps. Cars just have no character any more. They look and feel like generic piles of expensive junk-plastic Nanny State approved PPE, with an iPad stuck to the dash.
I might go install my CB in the car this weekend, just to feel better about myself!!

Your chances of surviving a crash are dramatically reduced.

But also, they're worse now than when that Polo was new. Because the car which hits you is a modern 7000lb behemoth. You'll bounce off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jonatron

Traction control... I got used to it, being able to drive like an idiot around corners without having to worry. I was slightly surprised to find myself facing the wrong way hugging a crash barrier after buying a car without traction control. What's wrong with the option of having it on or off? Not having it means people like me will just crash it.

---

Traction control itself I can take or leave. I'm capable of easing off it the wheels are spinning up. Stability control is rather more useful as it stops you spinning the car. I had a potentially interesting moment this morning as I accelerated off a roundabout and the car started to oversteer. VSC caught it before I'd had the time to do much more than wind a little lock off. Could I have caught it myself? Maybe, a dab of oppo and a bit less throttle might have settled it, but I'd rather not chance it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster

Quick squirt of de-icer. Works faster than my heated mirrors, certainly.

---

No so good when they mist up while you're driving though; drive into cold fog and it can happen, without it being freezing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zak33

but your Fiat comparison is a good example of chassis improvements. Uno 45's were floppy horrible things,.. Punto was a good chassis all round!

---

I don't think that is down to when the car was built though, the Uno simply slid around a lot even by the standards of the day. Judging by the mods done on the Uno Turbo I expect it is beyond wheels and tyres and down to excessive cost cutting.

Compare that to the 1976 Lancia Beta Spyder I once had, the handling on that beast was really good despite being 10 years younger.

The thing that has really changed is driver aids that kick in when you overcook it. There are modern cars out there that clearly can't handle the bhp they put out, whereas I remember being amazed in my mum's old Tigra that the chassis was so bad it would torque steer despite the engine apparently not having any torque. These days they would just turn up the electronic aids to keep it going in a straight line giving it the illusion of ability without actually spending money making the suspension up the the job.

On a very positive note, I once owned a Morris Ital Estate. I don't believe a car like that would be allowed on the road these days, so some things have come on :D :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Butcher

No so good when they mist up while you're driving though; drive into cold fog and it can happen, without it being freezing.

---

Actually did that this morning. Driving by the river the road and surrounding fields looking very pretty with all the mist, but door mirrors were starting to white out so I just hit the defrost button.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix

.

Compare that to the 1976 Lancia Beta Spyder I once had, the handling on that beast was really good despite being 10 years younger.

---

you are a lucky man.. I had it's mid engined sister which was the scariest car I have ever had the misfortune of nearly dying in...over and over.

the Monte Carlo.

horrible horrible thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Butcher

No so good when they mist up while you're driving though; drive into cold fog and it can happen, without it being freezing.

---

Never had it happen. I expect there's a film left behind that stops the condensation forming, as it was the same with my bike mirrors.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Butcher

Traction control itself I can take or leave. I'm capable of easing off it the wheels are spinning up. Stability control is rather more useful as it stops you spinning the car.

---

I'm not really sure on the terminology and which is which: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr...#Product_names
:undecided

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zak33

you are a lucky man.. I had it's mid engined sister which was the scariest car I have ever had the misfortune of nearly dying in...over and over.

the Monte Carlo.

horrible horrible thing.

---

Oh but they looked so pretty! Shame about the complete lack of brakes :(

Again, these days they would just let the ABS sort the braking problems out and not worry about it. Electronic brakeforce distribution is one of the driver aids I do agree with, so much better than the old valve on the rear axle that turns the rear brakes down on hard braking, when it feels like it.

Edit: I think quite a few of the surviving Monte\'s have now been stripped down to fix the rust and then turned into Rally 037 replicas. At first I thought that was a shame, then I figured the Monte was such a liability it was probably a good idea. Amazing to think a rally monster could come from something that couldn\'t even stop in a straight line.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster

*Looks over at motorcycle.
Wonders what ABS stands for.
Shrugs shoulders and goes off for a blatt.

---

Every new bike bigger than 125cc has to have it fitted now, it's the law!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jonatron

I'm not really sure on the terminology and which is which: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr...#Product_names
:undecided

---

In my mind, traction control stops you wheel spinning when you accelerate. Stability control stops the car chassis rotating when you start to slide the car due to lack of grip.

They also vary a lot between cars. Mine are fairly benign; you can get a bit of wheel spin and it cuts the power quite softly, likewise the stability control isn't too intrusive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Butcher

In my mind, traction control stops you wheel spinning when you accelerate. Stability control stops the car chassis rotating when you start to slide the car due to lack of grip.

They also vary a lot between cars. Mine are fairly benign; you can get a bit of wheel spin and it cuts the power quite softly, likewise the stability control isn't too intrusive.

---

That sounds right to me.

Bit odd in my current car though, I usually drive in the "Dynamic" setting where driver aids are dialled back (but supposedly still there) so if one wheel spins the software kicks in to act like a limited slip diff, but if both wheels spin it pretty much just lets you spin them :D Apparently that does help when driving in snow compared to the all weather mode, which isn't intuitive to stick the car in the sporty mode in the snow.

Mine has a handy no traction control until you hit 50 kph setting for pulling away on snow (at traffic lights, etc. ;)). I've also had a bit of wheel spin on gravel and like with traction control fully on, so it's fairly slack in its engagement.

I don't have ABS on my motorcycle, although its a thing now, but I would never have a bike without a slipper clutch, I would lock that rear wheel so damn often.

Certainly the most lively car I owned was a 1985 mk2 golf gti, but unlike your polo, it also stuck to the road very well, which was handy as the brake pedal could drop on the rare occasion (likely a bubble). It also had manual winders, and no power steering at all, so very good road feel.

My next car, a mk4 astra, was also pretty basic (when they tout the technological advantages of a fly by wire throttle you know where you are..) and also had no ABS.. but the brake feel remains the best I've had in a car to date. You knew when slip was occurring and it was so easy to modulate to rotate the wheels again - in snow it was quite nippy as a result! - but the downside was noticeable in emergency reactions and shock factors - if you have to jump on the brakes there isn't as much time for the feel-feedback loop and ABS would definitely be missed. It also had lovely feelsome hydro-assisted steering, which aided the snow efforts, but meant when it occasionally started failing at the end of life you had to muscle around not just the wheels, but also fight the redundant mechanism. At least it was doable.

/\ Astra Mk4 was a superb chassis.. I agree about the brake feel too.

it shows that chassis dev did improve, because I had loads of Mk3 Astra's (not as good as Mk4) but aso had a Mk3 Rally car and I sorted that ..finally. Mk 2 was dire.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xlucine

Every new bike bigger than 125cc has to have it fitted now, it's the law!

---

*Looks over at motorcycle.
Sees it's a 1992 model that was designed in 1978, and was better than a 2014 model with ABS.
Wonders what the problem is.
Shrugs shoulders and goes off for a blatt.

don't crash it :crazy: I've had the misfortune to bin a 19 year old Polo (granted it was only about 2 when it died). It isn't pretty at all, and hurt more than it had any right to. I was VERY lucky to walk away from that one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tumble

don't crash it :crazy: I've had the misfortune to bin a 19 year old Polo (granted it was only about 2 when it died). It isn't pretty at all, and hurt more than it had any right to. I was VERY lucky to walk away from that one.

---

I'm glad someone else mentioned this. It really can't be stated enough how much vehicle safety has improved over the last 20 years. I was in a serious car accident on Friday afternoon. I was stationary, hit from behind (she was texting) and pushed in to oncoming traffic. Two massive 30mph impacts that destroyed both ends of the brand new Ford I was driving (rental car). I cut my finger on some glass forcing my door open, but that was the only injury. I shudder to think about what would remain of an older car in a similar accident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7IuBT7zUnA

I was just sick a little bit watching that :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tumble

I was just sick a little bit watching that :(

---

Really scary bit is the dummy's head sliding off the airbag into the side window on the Rover. :(

Interesting that the damage to the target was higher for the newer car, possibly because of the higher mass, so conversely it could be argued that it would do more damage to a less well protected car, so in a collision between the two cars shown, the Rover might be expected to come off much more badly than in the test, and the newer car suffer less damage.

For what it's worth, the 1997 Polo actually had a better NCAP score than the Rover, but that comparison video makes the point extremely well.

Rover 100 is an easy target, it's much worse than all other cars of the era and was pulled from sale soon after the original crash tests came out

Here's the Polo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alR7mVgxo7g

You are absolutely right, that for something as serious as this, we should avoid any question of bias. The Polo does significantly better than the Rover, and significantly worse than the modern Honda Jazz.

Zak, please take this as it is meant, a good natured desire for you to be safe and happy in all things. Some people have a passion for classic vehicles, others race cars, or motorcycles, etc. That's a choice, and I respect that. I ride motorcycles, and one day may well look toward a classic vehicle. But that is and has to be an informed choice!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xlucine

Rover 100 is an easy target, it's much worse than all other cars of the era and was pulled from sale soon after the original crash tests came out

---

Scary part is the Rover 100 I used to occasionally drive the ABS was an utter liability, if you hit a pothole or drain cover whilst breaking it would just stop breaking. There was a T junction near where I worked where it was prone to happening, sending you merrily into the traffic on the main road.

... and yet, the 100 was still probably a big improvement over the original Mini. I got rid of my 1974 mini partly because I was fed up of hearing people tell me they knew someone who lost their legs in an accident in one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by peterb

Interesting that the damage to the target was higher for the newer car, possibly because of the higher mass, so conversely it could be argued that it would do more damage to a less well protected car, so in a collision between the two cars shown, the Rover might be expected to come off much more badly than in the test, and the newer car suffer less damage.

---

I'm not sure the target was more damaged - it looks like the force has been spread over a larger area, but the rover penetrates deeper. Of course, that's one of the main reasons modern cars are safer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TeePee

I'm glad someone else mentioned this. It really can't be stated enough how much vehicle safety has improved over the last 20 years. I was in a serious car accident on Friday afternoon. I was stationary, hit from behind (she was texting) and pushed in to oncoming traffic. Two massive 30mph impacts that destroyed both ends of the brand new Ford I was driving (rental car). I cut my finger on some glass forcing my door open, but that was the only injury. I shudder to think about what would remain of an older car in a similar accident.

---

Modern cars are pretty awesome in that respect - I crashed mine at about 50 mph and suffered only airbag and seatbelt bruises.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by peterb

Really scary bit is the dummy's head sliding off the airbag into the side window on the Rover. :(

Interesting that the damage to the target was higher for the newer car, possibly because of the higher mass, so conversely it could be argued that it would do more damage to a less well protected car, so in a collision between the two cars shown, the Rover might be expected to come off much more badly than in the test, and the newer car suffer less damage.

---

There's also the physics of it. In a collision between the Rover and the Jazz, the Rover ends up going backwards, while the Jazz continues forward. Conservation of momentum is a thing! That means significantly more G forces experienced by the Rover driver.

i'm not offended :)

I know what they're like.. I will upgrade soon. I spend a lot of time avoiding motorways and waste alot of time cross country driving, because, while it's viable to get hit hard anywhere.. the motorway smack up rate is a lot higher and in amongst all the big new cars, lorries and trucks I know the old Polo is rubbish.

Now: Winter update - the old girl heats up fast :) Most petrol drivers know this, but the Diesel drivers forget how fast a small petrol engined car churns out serous cabin heating. Nothing in the last 20 years has improved there. In fact I am genuinely enjoing an old fashioned non Air Con non climate system. And it gets HOT FAST :)

But oh the cold wet partial-steering lock corners are comical. There are a few slightly off camber corners and one with a few pot holes that make a mockery of the front suspension.

But the sunroof is lovely... even on average days. Having it tilted open improves air flow immensely - modern cars are missing out on the sun roof !

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zak33

I know what they're like.. I will upgrade soon. I spend a lot of time avoiding motorways and waste alot of time cross country driving, because, while it's viable to get hit hard anywhere.. the motorway smack up rate is a lot higher and in amongst all the big new cars, lorries and trucks I know the old Polo is rubbish.

---

Single carriageway rural roads have the highest accident rate by a considerable margin. You're much safer on a motorway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zak33

Now: Winter update - the old girl heats up fast :) Most petrol drivers know this, but the Diesel drivers forget how fast a small petrol engined car churns out serous cabin heating. Nothing in the last 20 years has improved there. In fact I am genuinely enjoing an old fashioned non Air Con non climate system. And it gets HOT FAST :)

---

Leaving work I have hot air blowing in about 2 minutes. It's awesome. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Butcher

Single carriageway rural roads have the highest accident rate by a considerable margin.

---

I have a good chance of making my own fate on them though. I know the accident rate is high, but it's often self created. Motorway won't be my choice, I'll just be collected in the middle as it all goes off around me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zak33

And it gets HOT FAST :)

---

Heated seats FTW ;)

Having said that, my small petrol engine with modern climate control does a stonking job of clearing off the screen around the car whilst the seats warm my backside. It does take a mile or so before any engine heat is directed towards me, but I always get some heat before I start feeling cold.

I never understood people who put a coat on before they get into a car. Do their heaters not work?

Thinking back to 70's & 80's cars that is something that has really improved. No more opening windows in the middle of winter to get air flowing to demist the front windscreen, side screens needing an occasional wipe as their just wasn't enough or any warm air vented onto them.

Remote start.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TeePee

Remote start.

---

Why would I want my car to start its engine if I'm not in it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by spacein_vader

Why would I want my car to start its engine if I'm not in it?

---

So people with radio signal boosters can make use of it without breaking into your house to steal the keys ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by peterb

... Interesting that the damage to the target was higher for the newer car, possibly because of the higher mass, so conversely it could be argued that it would do more damage to a less well protected car, so in a collision between the two cars shown, the Rover might be expected to come off much more badly than in the test, and the newer car suffer less damage.

---

I saw a clip (might even have been on here!) a few years ago where they took a ten year old large car a high NCAP rating and did an offset crash against a new small car with a high rating. Even with the size difference between the cars the older car came off a LOT worse, because it didn't have the force disperal mechanisms etc. The new car took a minor shunt, the old large car came off not unlike the Rover 100 above - deep penetration into the cabin, serious leg damage for the "driver"...

EDIT:

Age gap was bigger than I remembered. Volvo 940 v Renault Modus:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCecdOBCFjI

There's plenty more horrors like that on youtube (mostly from 5th Gear, interestingly enough!).

Some fancy cars have a fuel-burning heater, wot you program to warm up the cabin before you leave for work. It was an option on 75's, unfortunately I don't have it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by spacein_vader

Why would I want my car to start its engine if I'm not in it?

---

To warm up! The doors stay locked, and the engine will shut off if it's put in gear without the keys inside. I also have an engine block heater, which is plugged in to the mains, so it starts and warms up quickly..

My boy drives a 16 year old Polo. I love working on it despite everything taking twice as long as it should because a previous owner has rounded a bolt head or bodged a repair. It's a joy to be able to pull things apart, fix them and put them back on again without having to spend a day removing plastic trim.

The brakes are terrible, anticipating when you might need to stop is a skill I'd completely forgotten. The heaters make my eyes sweat. Sadly parts are becoming harder to find, but with entire cars being broken almost weekly on eBay, we've managed to amass a stockpile of things that may go wrong (much to the wife's delight).

Everyone should learn to drive in a creature-comfortless car to make them appreciate things more when they finally earn their driving wings.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mycarsavw

... Everyone should learn to drive in a creature-comfortless car to make them appreciate things more when they finally earn their driving wings.

---

I didn't learn in a comfortless car, but having just passed my test (at the ripe old age of 30) I went out and bought a beaten up Rover 414 as a "something to drive until I can rent cars"-mobile. It was a beautiful car, and I still miss her from time to time, despite all her foibles, but I wouldn't call her easy to drive ;)

Of course, since I don't own a vehicle any more, I have the "learning my car" experience every time I drive nowadays. Not sure if it makes me a better driver or not, but it makes me notice the palpable difference between driving experience - within about five minutes I'll know whether the hire car is simply going to be adequate, or whether I'm going to enjoy driving it around...

UPDATE!!

I miss remote central locking.

I really miss it.

Cos in the dark I keep missing the keyhole. In fact, remote central locking has probably, globally, saved a million driver side door resprays ;-) cos my keys rub on the paint work EVERY DAY!!, and the faffing about with a bag to carry, key holes and pouring rain means that...

I MISS REMOTE LOCKING!!

You don't miss keys with a little torch built in then? The low tech solution :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zak33

I MISS REMOTE LOCKING!!

---

If it has central locking already you can add a little box of tricks that'll give you remote central locking.

One of the first things the boy did to his for the same reasons you've described.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix

You don't miss keys with a little torch built in then? The low tech solution :D

---

no... I miss remote.

Seeing the hole would be easier.. but still a pain in the arse cos I still whirl the keys around the paintwork

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mycarsavw

If it has central locking already you can add a little box of tricks that'll give you remote central locking.

One of the first things the boy did to his for the same reasons you've described.

---

are you mad? ;-)

I'm not spending any money on it!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zak33

are you mad? ;-)

I'm not spending any money on it!

---

PM me your address.

Merry Christmas :)

There is the alternative from when I ran old cars: Don't lock it.

The car wasn't worth enough to steal, I didn't leave anything expensive in it. Occasionally I would get in the car and realise someone had been rummaging around the parcel shelf. If I locked the car, the difference would be I might find the £100 side glass smashed to steal the £30 stereo. I did once give someone a lift who locked the passenger side door when they got out. On return, that glass had been smashed to get to the stereo ignoring the other three unlocked doors :( Modern integrated stereos should stop that nonsense though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zak33

UPDATE!!

I miss remote central locking.

I really miss it.

Cos in the dark I keep missing the keyhole. In fact, remote central locking has probably, globally, saved a million driver side door resprays ;-) cos my keys rub on the paint work EVERY DAY!!, and the faffing about with a bag to carry, key holes and pouring rain means that...

I MISS REMOTE LOCKING!!

---

Using a key? How archaic. I lock the car with my knee if my hands are full. ;)

Well, April 2018 dawns bright and clear... and the Polo experiment continues.

Once a fortnight I drive my Honda CRX Del Sol VTEC, and also the Subarua Forester diesel at weekends, but its Polo for the daily commute.

I'm enjoying the old girl, but I'm now gonna slag off the headlights. They're always clean and they have glass fronts, so no acrylic frosting from age. But the fact is... they're crap. Nothing is wring with them, not even age wear... it's just that... headlights 20 years ago were ... sh1t.

Winter 17/18 was tougher on country lanes than it's possible to explain. Brown headges fade into brown roads with yellow headlights. You get used to it..and then drive a xenon lamps car and think "bloody hell.... I can SEE"
Then it snows and things get a bit easier.. until the slush... and then its back to "use the force, Luke" on sme of the twisty stuff.

The pattern is spot on as per factory ... ie .. it's crap.

BUT... the Honda .. a 1991, so 27 years old, is just as bad.

Time has improved lighting :)

I got some 50% brighter bulbs for my 2001 Alfa and it made a massive difference to the headlights. The 1995 and 1989 cars I had before that didn't need them. Personally, I think dip beams are getting worse as they illuminate beautifully for about 10mm in front of the car. My 2014 car is really bad on dip, but fine on main beam. It has an adjuster so from the comfort or the cabin I can make them even worse. I would have thought modern LED lighting would have made it a non issue by now but I guess not.

The Audi laser headlights sound nice.

Does 'not spending any money on it' include consumables like bulbs? You can almost certainly get some very bright filament bulbs these days (150+% brighter for about £20*) as a drop in, and there might even be the possibility of self contained LED transformer bulbs one day (not currently).


*https://www.powerbulbs.com/product/p...vision-h4-twin and use code FRESH25

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kalniel

Does 'not spending any money on it' include consumables like bulbs? You can almost certainly get some very bright filament bulbs these days (150+% brighter for about £20*) as a drop in, and there might even be the possibility of self contained LED transformer bulbs one day (not currently).


*https://www.powerbulbs.com/product/p...vision-h4-twin and use code FRESH25

---

if I were to spend lets say... a tenner on bulbs.. it would be a 10% increase to its value

so.... no bulbs, no

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zak33

if I were to spend lets say... a tenner on bulbs.. it would be a 10% increase to its value

so.... no bulbs, no

---

Is it annoying or a safety issue? When I swapped bulbs I did it when a bulb blew so I had to buy one bulb anyway, but afterwards I realised I should have bought better bulbs before as it made a huge difference and I drove home from work down windy country lanes. I just didn't know it would make a worthwhile difference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zak33

Well, April 2018 dawns bright and clear... and the Polo experiment continues.

Once a fortnight I drive my Honda CRX Del Sol VTEC, and also the Subarua Forester diesel at weekends, but its Polo for the daily commute.

I'm enjoying the old girl, but I'm now gonna slag off the headlights. They're always clean and they have glass fronts, so no acrylic frosting from age. But the fact is... they're crap. Nothing is wring with them, not even age wear... it's just that... headlights 20 years ago were ... sh1t.

Winter 17/18 was tougher on country lanes than it's possible to explain. Brown headges fade into brown roads with yellow headlights. You get used to it..and then drive a xenon lamps car and think "bloody hell.... I can SEE"
Then it snows and things get a bit easier.. until the slush... and then its back to "use the force, Luke" on sme of the twisty stuff.

The pattern is spot on as per factory ... ie .. it's crap.

BUT... the Honda .. a 1991, so 27 years old, is just as bad.

Time has improved lighting :)

---

My 3 year old Mondeo has bloody awful lights :( I think it's because of the way the front end has been designed - the only way I can think to describe it is the lights are like a pug's nose.... too small and squinty to be much use to anyone.

There's % increase in value.. and there's how much you value your life :p Like tyres and brakes, lights are a safety thing for me and I'll always get the best I can - and for £20, it's not really much to complain about (you can always take them out of the car again when you scrap it, so no value loss :p)

My 2013 car has excellent dipped headlights (HID). The previous car (2014) had LED headlights and they were disappointing. The crappy dipped beam on them was a contributing factor to the car's demise.

Sorry for straying off onto the topic of headlights (great OP BTW, only just noticed it, a really interesting read:)) but would y'all recommend those 'brighter' halogen bulbs then?

I'm reasonably impressed with the stock dipped beams on the 2013 Focus (standard halogen reflectors) but having done some night-time, unlit motorway driving, a tiny bit more visibility ahead would be nice, but oncoming traffic kinda rules out main beam.

I didn't see much improvement with dipped beam, and they don't last as long. I replaced high and low beam on my car a couple of years ago or so, and the low beam wore out after a year or so. High beam was a bit brighter, and I don't use it as much so those bulbs should last a while, but I've gone to extra-life dipped beam without much change in the light projection.

Certainly worked well for me on country roads. Might try some on the new car if I find myself doing similar trips again, though I do wonder if I can tweak the lights upwards a little.

There are led and hid conversions but sounds like they can wreak the light pattern.

I could be wrong, but I did some research into legitimate conversions and for the most part I don't think there's really a way to do it besides replacing the whole headlamp assembly for another approved one. Given how precisely they're designed to get the filament in the focal point of the reflector, a different type of light source would likely throw it way off and ruin the light pattern like you say.

Regardless of whether it would pass a pattern test, what I also concluded is that you'll effectively void the E mark by installing any non-standard lamps; even if the lamps you install happen to come with their own E mark (as some sellers claim, implying they're 'legal'), the assembly as a whole will not be compliant as they were not designed to be used together - headlamps are rated as a whole, not as a sum of parts.

I've also just found this, apparently the DVSA has removed some of the ambiguity and outright said it's not permitted to convert halogen units: https://greyhead.co.uk/other-things/...ights-legal-uk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by watercooled

I could be wrong, but I did some research into legitimate conversions and for the most part I don't think there's really a way to do it besides replacing the whole headlamp assembly for another approved one. Given how precisely they're designed to get the filament in the focal point of the reflector, a different type of light source would likely throw it way off and ruin the light pattern like you say.

Regardless of whether it would pass a pattern test, what I also concluded is that you'll effectively void the E mark by installing any non-standard lamps; even if the lamps you install happen to come with their own E mark (as some sellers claim, implying they're 'legal'), the assembly as a whole will not be compliant as they were not designed to be used together - headlamps are rated as a whole, not as a sum of parts.

I've also just found this, apparently the DVSA has removed some of the ambiguity and outright said it's not permitted to convert halogen units: https://greyhead.co.uk/other-things/...ights-legal-uk

---

Absolutely, but you can get halogen bulbs that are still halogen so perfectly legal but 50% brighter. The key is that being halogen the filament is the same shape and in the same location as a cheap filament so the light pattern is correct, it's just more efficient so gives more light.

It's just the HID conversions I was talking about. WRT the brighter bulbs, I was considering them a while ago but there's not much in the way of performance tests available; I found some by ADAC if I remember correctly, but subjective reviews ranged from no improvement and short life, to a massive improvement.

HID conversions are illegal. By law cars with HID lamps must be selfl evelling and the kit to do so is on the suspension. Doubt any of the aftermarket kits can do that.

According to the government, that's not strictly true, they acknowledge that vehicles may be fitted with such systems (and washers) and if so they must work.

Quote:

---

Vehicles with high intensity discharge (HID) or LED dipped beam headlamps may be fitted with a
suspension or headlamp self-levelling system. If these systems have been fitted, they must work.

---

You can't convert an existing unit, but replacing one isn't explicitly forbidden from what I can see (nor would that make sense as they're effectively interchangeable OEM parts in some vehicles).

Quote:

---

Existing halogen headlamp units shouldn’t be converted to be used with HID bulbs. If such a conversion
has been done, you must fail the headlamp.

---

The wording is fairly clear - existing halogen units can't be converted. Kits are basically a no-go then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by watercooled

It's just the HID conversions I was talking about. WRT the brighter bulbs, I was considering them a while ago but there's not much in the way of performance tests available; I found some by ADAC if I remember correctly, but subjective reviews ranged from no improvement and short life, to a massive improvement.

---

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/accesso...018-group-test

It's AE though, so take with a little bit of sodium..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by watercooled

According to the government, that's not strictly true, they acknowledge that vehicles may be fitted with such systems (and washers) and if so they must work.



You can't convert an existing unit, but replacing one isn't explicitly forbidden from what I can see (nor would that make sense as they're effectively interchangeable OEM parts in some vehicles).



The wording is fairly clear - existing halogen units can't be converted. Kits are basically a no-go then.

---

I'm confused by the semantics of the first 2 lines - I've read it 5 times and gone cross eyed. However the final sentence is clear. HID conversions are illegal. Any car that cannot pass its MOT at any point in time is technically illegal to be used on the road as a rule of thumb - although it's extremely rarely enforced.

Another rule of thumb I have heard (used by police) is that if it is on the vehicle, it should be working. e.g. rear wipers are not required, however if your car has one, it must be working.

It reads very clearly to me, something like this: Some vehicles are equipped with HID or headlamps. Of these vehicles, some are fitted with self-levelling systems - if so, these systems must work.

There is, as far as I can tell, no explicit requirement for such systems on a vehicle equipped with HID/LED headlamps, merely that any fitted systems must function correctly.

FWIW, some (if not most) of the self-levelling mechanisms are integral to the headlamp assembly and don't require self-levelling suspension, so it's not like the entire car needs to be designed for it.

But yeah, modifying a halogen unit to work with HIDs is not permitted according to that (draft) document. LEDs are notably omitted from that phrase, interestingly!

@kalniel: I think I encountered that article or one similar to it when I was researching (it's originally dated back in 2017), but it's patronisingly stripped of any objective data to examine for ourselves. If they took the time to make measurements, why are they keeping results mostly to themselves and expecting us to trust their subjective conclusions? /rant

Or am I just missing a link to a table or something?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by watercooled

FWIW, some (if not most) of the self-levelling mechanisms are integral to the headlamp assembly and don't require self-levelling suspension, so it's not like the entire car needs to be designed for it.

---

How does that work? It can't work using gravity as a reference else if you go down hill the lamps would point upwards relative to the road and into the faces of oncoming traffic. It has to be in reference to the angle of the car relative to the road, easiest picked up on rear suspension height.

I assumed these days they would use the normal electric manual suspension levelling system (standard on my shopping trolly, so I presume cheap enough) coupled with a sensor at the back and a few lines of code to move the lights if the sensor registers a change.

Quote:

---

There is, as far as I can tell, no explicit requirement for such systems on a vehicle equipped with HID/LED headlamps, merely that any fitted systems must function correctly.

---

I think that is like seatbelts. If you don't have rear seatbelts then that's fine and an MOT pass, but any car made after something like 1976 must have rear seatbelts to pass type approval and be classed as a car so it can get a registration number.

There was a rather good web page out there that showed the difference in halogen and HID light source shapes and hence how putting the wrong bulb into a reflector gave you a light pattern it was never designed to produce.

Moving in to stuff I'm not 100% about but I'll do my best (and I'm interested so I'll do more research later). Also typing on phone so forgive short(er) sentences.

Light assemblies have an upper limit to stop pointing upwards when going downhill.

Cars can have a plethora of sensors e.g. suspension height regardless of headlamps installed at the factory (they're often interchangeable) and said sensors are accessible via the CAN bus. They don't have to be integral to the headlamp. The adjustment can be motorised in the assembly though.

I actually mentioned seatbelts (and airbags) as an example in an earlier point but removed it to avoid confusion in making my point as they became mandatory in cars produced after a date. I don't think that's the case here.

I'd be interested in that conversation test if you know where it was! Be a good way of demonstrating the issue to people too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by watercooled

Cars can have a plethora of sensors e.g. suspension height regardless of headlamps installed at the factory (they're often interchangeable) and said sensors are accessible via the CAN bus. They don't have to be integral to the headlamp. The adjustment can be motorised in the assembly though.

---

That is basically what I was saying, My current car has adjustable headlamps, the addition of a suspension height/load sensor could make it automatic.

I am quite certain though that self levelling is a current requirement for HID lights in new cars.

Edit: Some googling found this, UK law doesn't mention HID lamps making them illegal under UK law but EU law overrides that so they are covered under ECE 98 for type approval and the UK lets aftermarket parts slide as long as they also get over that bar which includes washers and self levelling:

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-hid-headlamps

Ah I see what you mean. Also good find with that gov article, makes things quite clear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix

That is basically what I was saying, My current car has adjustable headlamps, the addition of a suspension height/load sensor could make it automatic.

I am quite certain though that self levelling is a current requirement for HID lights in new cars.

Edit: Some googling found this, UK law doesn't mention HID lamps making them illegal under UK law but EU law overrides that so they are covered under ECE 98 for type approval and the UK lets aftermarket parts slide as long as they also get over that bar which includes washers and self levelling:

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-hid-headlamps

---

I looked at fitting aftermarket HID, but that was definitely iffy, so I then looked at getting the proper Mfr HID units for the car (it was a factory fitted option when new). But the FF option included self levelling suspension - so unless that was fitted as well, the HID would still be illegal and likely to result in an MoT fail.

I think I started a tread about it on HEXUS.

Edit - I did https://forums.hexus.net/automotive/...onversion.html

I had a look at the price of the OEM hid units for mine and they're about £500 each...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by watercooled

I had a look at the price of the OEM hid units for mine and they're about £500 each...

---

Bargain. I broke both my front HID headlights. £900+VAT each for oem replacements was quoted. I got aftermarket shells for £500 a pair and reused the OEM electronics.
They self level; the sensor is attached to the rear suspension control arm, so it levels based on how much stuff you have in the boot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Butcher

They self level; the sensor is attached to the rear suspension control arm, so it levels based on how much stuff you have in the boot.

---

Which is great until you lower the car...

What the actual did you do to your headlights? :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lowe

Which is great until you lower the car...

What the actual did you do to your headlights? :D

---

Indeed, which is why mine has an adjustable linkage, so it can be corrected for lowering.

I crashed the front of the car into an armco at Snetterton race track. :(

Like so:
https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net...f3&oe=5B68542E

Just bought one of those Cusco adjustables.

And ouch :(

An 86? IMO it's a very pretty car! I'd really like to give one a test drive. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lowe

Just bought one of those Cusco adjustables.

And ouch :(

---

I think mine is the Cusco one. Fensport do a clone which is half the price (no Cusco tax) now. I didn't fit mine, but it looks pretty easy (you can get to it without even jacking up the car I think!

Ouch indeed. Off the road for a few weeks getting that lot fixed. New bonnet, wings, radiator, headlights, aircon, a few other sundries.

mate...good effort :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Butcher

Indeed, which is why mine has an adjustable linkage, so it can be corrected for lowering.

I crashed the front of the car into an armco at Snetterton race track. :(

Like so:
https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net...f3&oe=5B68542E

---

mate...good effort

Luckily, it didn't actually hole the radiator (just broke the mountings), so I was able to drive home. Though it was a moderately wet day with a lot of filthy spray, and the washer bottle is behind the passenger side fog light, so was pierced, hence no washers. Not fun.

dude....you're doing it for real...not doing it on a PS4. You're out there, showing your car the track, and in this case some armco, but hey...

in 10 years time you will NOT regret that. You will never regret it. I gaurantee that. It costs now, and it hurts the wallet,....but it's real life, and when you pile on the power of your electric sports car in a decade, in silence, with no drama.... you'll think "learned this the hard way :)"

Not much track time recently. Trying to buy a house. On the upside, I'll have space for a driveway and garage rather than doing things in the flat car park...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zak33

mate...good effort

---

Good Toyota, I think this can easily be repaired...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by watercooled

@kalniel: I think I encountered that article or one similar to it when I was researching (it's originally dated back in 2017), but it's patronisingly stripped of any objective data to examine for ourselves. If they took the time to make measurements, why are they keeping results mostly to themselves and expecting us to trust their subjective conclusions? /rant

Or am I just missing a link to a table or something?

---

I presume it's in the actual magazine which you have to buy. The website is just a scraping (by them) of bits and pieces with very little QA to check whether it makes sense. Sometimes they include the table, sometimes they don't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Butcher

Indeed, which is why mine has an adjustable linkage, so it can be corrected for lowering.

I crashed the front of the car into an armco at Snetterton race track. :(

Like so:
https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net...f3&oe=5B68542E

---

Only just seen this... ouch :(