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Thread: Make it illegal for Historic Vehicles to be processed through scrappage schemes

  1. #33
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    Re: Make it illegal for Historic Vehicles to be processed through scrappage schemes

    I don't think the current round of "scrappage schemes" are the same as the previous government back one are they? During that scheme cars legally had to be scrapped and could not be returned to the road - meaning that perfectly viable and rare classics were lost due to technicalities. Bad wording aside, I'm not sure all cars that go through this process will end up on the heap so I don't think it's as bad as it could be.

    As for whether people are getting a good deal? I'll leave the dark art of car dealerships to someone else to shine a light on.

  2. #34
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    Re: Make it illegal for Historic Vehicles to be processed through scrappage schemes

    I don't know why Badass quoted you. There WAS, however, some assertions ( by others) in this thread, such as criminalising people "stupid enough" to want to scrap historic cars, and the theme of the petition seems to be, whatever the motivation, to prevent people scrapping them (via this scheme) and I assume, perhaps incorrectly, that that's what he meant by "dictating to".

    I don't know how many people in this thread own historic cars (as defined by government) but one of them is me. The thrust of the petition is to prevent me scrappaging my car, if I want to, because THEY think it's worth saving. My view is that if they think that, they're welcome to buy it. But if they aren't oreoared to buy it, or can't afford to, then it's cheeky telling me I can't scrap it.

    I don't know what Badass meant, or why he picked you to quote. But I think he's expressing the same basic point I have before, and just did again - the car to be scrapped is the property of the scrapper and the theme of this petition is to stop them scrapping their property, if they want to.

    I don't want to scrap mine, by the way, but it's neither terribly rare nor terribly valuable. I'm just fond of it

    Anyway, as I said, feel free to challenge Badass, or me, on our views on scrappage. That's what debates or for.

    But not with the name-calling. THAT falls firmly under moderating jurisdiction. I'm currently on a record time since I had to suspend someone. Kindly don't ruin it.
    Noli nothis permittere te terere.


  3. #35
    £1000 Tesco Value Beer CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
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    Re: Make it illegal for Historic Vehicles to be processed through scrappage schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    I don't know why Badass quoted you. There WAS, however, some assertions ( by others) in this thread, such as criminalising people "stupid enough" to want to scrap historic cars, and the theme of the petition seems to be, whatever the motivation, to prevent people scrapping them (via this scheme) and I assume, perhaps incorrectly, that that's what he meant by "dictating to".

    I don't know how many people in this thread own historic cars (as defined by government) but one of them is me. The thrust of the petition is to prevent me scrappaging my car, if I want to, because THEY think it's worth saving. My view is that if they think that, they're welcome to buy it. But if they aren't oreoared to buy it, or can't afford to, then it's cheeky telling me I can't scrap it.

    I don't know what Badass meant, or why he picked you to quote. But I think he's expressing the same basic point I have before, and just did again - the car to be scrapped is the property of the scrapper and the theme of this petition is to stop them scrapping their property, if they want to.

    I don't want to scrap mine, by the way, but it's neither terribly rare nor terribly valuable. I'm just fond of it

    Anyway, as I said, feel free to challenge Badass, or me, on our views on scrappage. That's what debates or for.

    But not with the name-calling. THAT falls firmly under moderating jurisdiction. I'm currently on a record time since I had to suspend someone. Kindly don't ruin it.
    I still think there is nothing wrong in informing someone of what the car is worth or its significance though?? Or a scrappage firm selling it on??

    What if someone had inherited a good condition Ford XR3 from a family member or a Lancia Delta Integrale,and had no clue about classics and decided to get it scrapped as a part exchange,but its worth significantly more?? TBH,quite a number of people wouldn't know about such cars especially if they didn't give a damn about the uncles "old,musty smelling" car.

    Remember this is only about referring to part exchange schemes,its not going to really stop people doing what they want with an old car like:
    1.)Crash it for fun like Top Gear did.
    2.)Rebuilt it into a drag racer.
    3.)Use it as performance art.
    4.)Abandon it in a field,like that shell of a Series 1 Land Rover I saw on a campsite.
    5.)Use it to see it would survive an impact with a Cervidae family member.
    6.)Scrap it for parts.
    7.)Make it into a shuttle like Top Gear did.
    8.)Or just crash it due to poor driving.

    and so on.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 05-02-2018 at 07:17 PM.


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    Re: Make it illegal for Historic Vehicles to be processed through scrappage schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    If you have a problem then whine at Zak33 who started this thread you coward. Nope,because you are scared of attacking him since he is a mod.

    If you don't like what I say then stuff it. I will say what I want - it symphocants like you who ruin things for lots of people.
    I was about to post a very large WTF. Then I saw the below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    That pretty much works for me.

    I'd add that if the dealer taking it in wants to put it in a collection, or donate as a museum piece, etc, then fine. I don't agree that the dealer should be forced to actually destroy the vehicle. After all, the object of the exercise is to get old, polluting cars of the road. Once that's achieved, does it matter if it's actually destroyed?
    So I'll state a certain rule of text only communication. If there are 2 ways of interpreting a message and one of them makes you angry - it's probably supposed to be the other interpretation.

    Second point - I used the word you after quoting Cat. This wasn't meant to be targeting CAT specifically. I just don't believe in interfering with what other people want to do with their property. Even if what they want to do makes me sad. Provided of course they don't want to be dangerous or cause harm in other ways with it etc.
    What I could agree with is an awareness campaign, funded by lovers of classics. Make the dealer networks aware they they might get interest in so called scrappage cars and a place to notify of a vehicle of interest.

    One final point however after seeing CATs response. Calm down! Seriously. I'd happily have sent the same response to any mod as it doesn't break any rules, nor the spirit of the rules.

    EDIT: final final point. I don't have a problem with CAT. Even when I don't agree. I do however regard them as a bit.....emotional and prone to outbursts shall we say
    Last edited by badass; 05-02-2018 at 07:40 PM.
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    Re: Make it illegal for Historic Vehicles to be processed through scrappage schemes

    This is all your fault, Zak.



    *runs away*
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    Re: Make it illegal for Historic Vehicles to be processed through scrappage schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by badass View Post
    I was about to post a very large WTF. Then I saw the below.



    So I'll state a certain rule of text only communication. If there are 2 ways of interpreting a message and one of them makes you angry - it's probably supposed to be the other interpretation.

    Second point - I used the word you after quoting Cat. This wasn't meant to be targeting CAT specifically. I just don't believe in interfering with what other people want to do with their property. Even if what they want to do makes me sad. Provided of course they don't want to be dangerous or cause harm in other ways with it etc.
    What I could agree with is an awareness campaign, funded by lovers of classics. Make the dealer networks aware they they might get interest in so called scrappage cars and a place to notify of a vehicle of interest.

    One final point however after seeing CATs response. Calm down! Seriously. I'd happily have sent the same response to any mod as it doesn't break any rules, nor the spirit of the rules.

    EDIT: final final point. I don't have a problem with CAT. Even when I don't agree. I do however regard them as a bit.....emotional and prone to outbursts shall we say
    Me,rant.....NEVER.

    Nah,its OK.


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    Re: Make it illegal for Historic Vehicles to be processed through scrappage schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by Zak33 View Post
    i nearly agree... but the normal wastage or life/rta's/. MOT fails tends to finish off most cars.. the few left ARE worth keeping.

    Austin Allegro.. bloody awful car. But worth keeping a few of
    Tbh the Maestro/Montego range.. utterly crap.. but a few are worth keeping.

    Moving to the actual act of scappage with a factory deal- the factory has to justify the money- It's not a discount, it's not a pre reg allowance for making it a secnd hand car with zero miles. It's a "Scrappage" deal and for the trading standards boys and girls to be happy with that description, it needs scrapping. Companies like Autgreen are them dealt with. Dealerrs use their website to record it's scrappage and they turn up and take it away and it WILL BE SCRAPPED- period.

    Because not all customers are utterly astute to the world, sometimes the thought of £5000 for an old car seems awesome. The actual fact is often that the factory paid £3000 of that, the dealer paid £2000 of that from their margin. If the new car hadn't sold, it might have then been pre registered with the same discount, making it a "used" car with £50000 off the screen price, but an owner on the V5 (normally a business name connected to the dealer but not the dealer themselves). Then they are allowed to sell it secnd hand immediately.

    if the dealer registers is in their own name they must keep it for 90 days before selling it, if they are one of the larger market share brands. Vans have to be kept for less time,

    Either way.. it's a bloody minefield for the old boy with a 25 + year old car that is really worth £1500 to £2000 but he gets offered £5k

    And the scrappage company has to scrap something that's worth keeping in a museum.

    Hence .. SIGN THE GOV PETITION please
    Do the company have to scrap it? I thought it could never again be registered to run on public roads, in which case there's nothing to stop it being put in a museum.

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    Re: Make it illegal for Historic Vehicles to be processed through scrappage schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    I still think there is nothing wrong in informing someone of what the car is worth or its significance though?? Or a scrappage firm selling it on??

    What if someone had inherited a good condition Ford XR3 from a family member or a Lancia Delta Integrale,and had no clue about classics and decided to get it scrapped as a part exchange,but its worth significantly more?? TBH,quite a number of people wouldn't know about such cars especially if they didn't give a damn about the uncles "old,musty smelling" car.

    Remember this is only about referring to part exchange schemes,its not going to really stop people doing what they want with an old car like:
    1.)Crash it for fun like Top Gear did.
    2.)Rebuilt it into a drag racer.
    3.)Use it as performance art.
    4.)Abandon it in a field,like that shell of a Series 1 Land Rover I saw on a campsite.
    5.)Use it to see it would survive an impact with a Cervidae family member.
    6.)Scrap it for parts.
    7.)Make it into a shuttle like Top Gear did.
    8.)Or just crash it due to poor driving.

    and so on.
    Without either agreeing or disagreeing with any of that, there is nothing wrong with that. Had that been what was said, no problem. The problem was SOLELY with the specific name-calling.

    Seeing as we appear to now be beyond that, hopefully nothing more need be said or done.
    Noli nothis permittere te terere.


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    Re: Make it illegal for Historic Vehicles to be processed through scrappage schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    I still think there is nothing wrong in informing someone of what the car is worth or its significance though?? Or a scrappage firm selling it on??

    What if someone had inherited a good condition Ford XR3 from a family member or a Lancia Delta Integrale,and had no clue about classics and decided to get it scrapped as a part exchange,but its worth significantly more?? TBH,quite a number of people wouldn't know about such cars especially if they didn't give a damn about the uncles "old,musty smelling" car.

    Remember this is only about referring to part exchange schemes,its not going to really stop people doing what they want with an old car like:
    1.)Crash it for fun like Top Gear did.
    2.)Rebuilt it into a drag racer.
    3.)Use it as performance art.
    4.)Abandon it in a field,like that shell of a Series 1 Land Rover I saw on a campsite.
    5.)Use it to see it would survive an impact with a Cervidae family member.
    6.)Scrap it for parts.
    7.)Make it into a shuttle like Top Gear did.
    8.)Or just crash it due to poor driving.

    and so on.
    Now for those options.

    If the object is to preserve a "classic" car, none of those do much to achieve it. Most of them also do nothing to raise any cash for the owner, like the scrappage scheme does, with the possible exception of breaking it for parts. BUT .... if the only is of a more advanced age, or lacks skills, or lacks tools or facilities, the only way to break it for parts may be to pay someone to do it and that, depending on car, may cost much of or more than the parts are worth.


    In my view, it's simple.

    First, someone owns a car.

    Second, government wants older more-polluting cars off the road.

    Third, the car that person owns qualifies.

    Fourth, it is up to THAT PERSON if they want to trade it in, crash it TG-style, or plant rhodadendrums in it.

    If someone else objects to it being scrapped because it's classic, by all means buy it at the scrappage price. Otherwise, it's none of their business, which is why I'm not signing tne petition.

    I would slso point out, as others have been giving scenarios ....


    Person A .... inherits a car, in running condition, with MOT. It's "historic", but not of particular value or merit. Just old. Now, it may be running and MOT'd now, but there are signs that some major components are reaching life-end. It may get tghrough another MOT. It nay also not need an MOT at all, but may be reaching the point where keeping it roadworthy becomes too expensive. So, scrapping it while you can may be the best option.


    Person B has a historic car, but parts are getting impossible to get, and finding them, and/or fitting them are getting to be too much hassle. Or, the level of maintenance wirk is getting beyond B's ability to keep paying for it.

    In either case, the best option, financially, may well be scrappage, and indeed that might be the only way A or B can afford a new car.

    The car may not be worth anything as a classic, and not worth much as a car, just because it's old, but the time, effort and hassle can, I can assure you, go through the roof, as it were.

    Why should scrappage be denied thdm because someone else thinks it's worth preserving, especially if they're not willing to dig into their own pocket, snd/or take in the time and hassle of keeping it going?
    Noli nothis permittere te terere.


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    Re: Make it illegal for Historic Vehicles to be processed through scrappage schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Why should scrappage be denied thdm because someone else thinks it's worth preserving, especially if they're not willing to dig into their own pocket, snd/or take in the time and hassle of keeping it going?
    yeah, make them keep it. Serves them right for running old kit. I mean we should all buy new stuff every year anyway. That's what those nice chaps at Intel seem to suggest since they only offer patches for processors with major security flaws if they're from the last 3 years or so. Ditto google with patchs for their smartphones. I can only infer their opinion is "It's not about whether it runs, it's about whether it's new. If someone has kept their old kit, and wants to use it because they can't afford to upgrade, well that's not our problem. Come on, cough-up cough-up. As for paying them to scrap it? NOOOO they need to pay us...."

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    Re: Make it illegal for Historic Vehicles to be processed through scrappage schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Now for those options.

    If the object is to preserve a "classic" car, none of those do much to achieve it. Most of them also do nothing to raise any cash for the owner, like the scrappage scheme does, with the possible exception of breaking it for parts. BUT .... if the only is of a more advanced age, or lacks skills, or lacks tools or facilities, the only way to break it for parts may be to pay someone to do it and that, depending on car, may cost much of or more than the parts are worth.


    In my view, it's simple.

    First, someone owns a car.

    Second, government wants older more-polluting cars off the road.

    Third, the car that person owns qualifies.

    Fourth, it is up to THAT PERSON if they want to trade it in, crash it TG-style, or plant rhodadendrums in it.

    If someone else objects to it being scrapped because it's classic, by all means buy it at the scrappage price. Otherwise, it's none of their business, which is why I'm not signing tne petition.

    I would slso point out, as others have been giving scenarios ....


    Person A .... inherits a car, in running condition, with MOT. It's "historic", but not of particular value or merit. Just old. Now, it may be running and MOT'd now, but there are signs that some major components are reaching life-end. It may get tghrough another MOT. It nay also not need an MOT at all, but may be reaching the point where keeping it roadworthy becomes too expensive. So, scrapping it while you can may be the best option.


    Person B has a historic car, but parts are getting impossible to get, and finding them, and/or fitting them are getting to be too much hassle. Or, the level of maintenance wirk is getting beyond B's ability to keep paying for it.

    In either case, the best option, financially, may well be scrappage, and indeed that might be the only way A or B can afford a new car.

    The car may not be worth anything as a classic, and not worth much as a car, just because it's old, but the time, effort and hassle can, I can assure you, go through the roof, as it were.

    Why should scrappage be denied thdm because someone else thinks it's worth preserving, especially if they're not willing to dig into their own pocket, snd/or take in the time and hassle of keeping it going?
    The companies can deny a trade-in for whatever reason they want TBF,and it is not really finacially viable if they are going to scrap a car for a steel value less than the value of a car. I also don't see the point of not informing someone of the value of an old car - they might go to a dealership who has no clue and does not sell classic/old cars and get offered nothing for it. An example is the Chevette I mentioned - it was worth a fair amount,but a dealership didn't want to take it and the person sent it to a scrapyard for £50. The other aspect is these schemes do have a degree of government backing,so again,if the government can recover more money back through sale of the car,or does not need to provide capital in the first place,its financially more sound.

    However,I won't be signing the petition,since I think this is more an issue which needs to worked out between consumers and the car companies,and car companies need to apply some common sense to these schemes.

    Things like many camera or laptops trade-ins,etc done through the manufacturer require you have a functional working camera or laptop,which I can only assume is sold on or reused. If not there would be no requirement for the trade-in to be functional!
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 06-02-2018 at 04:10 PM.


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    Re: Make it illegal for Historic Vehicles to be processed through scrappage schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    The companies can deny a trade-in for whatever reason they want TBF,and it is not really finacially viable if they are going to scrap a car for a steel value less than the value of a car. I also don't see the point of not informing someone of the value of an old car - they might go to a dealership who has no clue and does not sell classic/old cars and get offered nothing for it. An example is the Chevette I mentioned - it was worth a fair amount,but a dealership didn't want to take it and the person sent it to a scrapyard for £50. The other aspect is these schemes do have a degree of government backing,so again,if the government can recover more money back through sale of the car,or does not need to provide capital in the first place,its financially more sound.

    However,I won't be signing the petition,since I think this is more an issue which needs to worked out between consumers and the car companies,and car companies need to apply some common sense to these schemes.

    Things like many camera or laptops trade-ins,etc done through the manufacturer require you have a functional working camera or laptop,which I can only assume is sold on or reused. If not there would be no requirement for the trade-in to be functional!
    This is not about a trade-in scheme, though. It's about scrapping older, more polluting cars.

    The petition is about preventing "classic" cars being scrapped. If it's valuable and the dealer telks the owner that, then fair enough, But not all classic cars are valuable. In any event, the classuc car belongs to it's owner and if he, for instance me, wants to scrap it, I can't see how it's anybody else's business. It's between me, as owner, and Ford.

    As far as I can tell, yes, they can decline to accept it. At which point, I decline to buy their new car and walk out. That's not what they want.


    As far as I'm concerned, thidps thread is about signing, or not signing a petition serkung to prevent me from scrapping my car if/when I want to, because someone else doesn't want me to. I won't sign because I dob't agree with the objectives of the petition. What the car is "worth" is my responsibility to find out, and what it's worth as scrap metal or parts is immaterial jf I decide, for reasons good enough to me, that I want to scrap it.
    Noli nothis permittere te terere.


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    Re: Make it illegal for Historic Vehicles to be processed through scrappage schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    This is not about a trade-in scheme, though. It's about scrapping older, more polluting cars.

    The petition is about preventing "classic" cars being scrapped. If it's valuable and the dealer telks the owner that, then fair enough, But not all classic cars are valuable. In any event, the classuc car belongs to it's owner and if he, for instance me, wants to scrap it, I can't see how it's anybody else's business. It's between me, as owner, and Ford.

    As far as I can tell, yes, they can decline to accept it. At which point, I decline to buy their new car and walk out. That's not what they want.


    As far as I'm concerned, thidps thread is about signing, or not signing a petition serkung to prevent me from scrapping my car if/when I want to, because someone else doesn't want me to. I won't sign because I dob't agree with the objectives of the petition. What the car is "worth" is my responsibility to find out, and what it's worth as scrap metal or parts is immaterial jf I decide, for reasons good enough to me, that I want to scrap it.
    I read it as wanting to prevent the mandatory scrapping of the car after it has been exchanged/handed in/whatever you want to call it. I don't see the two as mutually exclusive - by all means let people cash in their old cars, but if the car is of merit and worth saving (in the opinion of wider motor heritage/ museum curators or whatever) then the dealer ought to have the option to send it to Gaydon/Glasgow/ANother museum for preservation, or to sell it to a collector rather than be legally obliged to scrap it. That's my reading of the post on the gov site. Have I misunderstood?

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    Re: Make it illegal for Historic Vehicles to be processed through scrappage schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by ik9000 View Post
    I read it as wanting to prevent the mandatory scrapping of the car after it has been exchanged/handed in/whatever you want to call it. I don't see the two as mutually exclusive - by all means let people cash in their old cars, but if the car is of merit and worth saving (in the opinion of wider motor heritage/ museum curators or whatever) then the dealer ought to have the option to send it to Gaydon/Glasgow/ANother museum for preservation, or to sell it to a collector rather than be legally obliged to scrap it. That's my reading of the post on the gov site. Have I misunderstood?
    But as I said before, I don't think at the minute they're legally obliged to destroy the car. The obligation is to never run it on public roads again, it will be ineligible to be taxed, tested etc. Unless someone can point me at legislation that says otherwise I'm sure that definition wouldn't exclude a vehicle from being put into a museum.

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    Admin Saracen's Avatar
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    Re: Make it illegal for Historic Vehicles to be processed through scrappage schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by ik9000 View Post
    I read it as wanting to prevent the mandatory scrapping of the car after it has been exchanged/handed in/whatever you want to call it. I don't see the two as mutually exclusive - by all means let people cash in their old cars, but if the car is of merit and worth saving (in the opinion of wider motor heritage/ museum curators or whatever) then the dealer ought to have the option to send it to Gaydon/Glasgow/ANother museum for preservation, or to sell it to a collector rather than be legally obliged to scrap it. That's my reading of the post on the gov site. Have I misunderstood?
    One of us has. I guess it comes down to what manufacturers "processing through their scrappage scheme", that being what the petition calls for being made illegal.

    I take it to mean "historic" cars aren't eligible, thus denying owners the option to apply, and receive the contribution, up to £7k *depending on vehicle type) at all. THAT, I object to on principle.

    On the other hand, if it means the manufacturer can accept the vehicle in, do the deal with the owner re: £7 (or whatever) and THEN the manufacturer can find some way of using the vehicle in a "not on road" capacity, like a museum, then I have no objection. After all, once the owner has swapped ownership for cash-against-purchase, he/she has no more right to a view on the new owner's use than anyone else sellingva car does.


    But, given that lack of clarity, it suggests a poorly worded petition.
    Noli nothis permittere te terere.


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    Re: Make it illegal for Historic Vehicles to be processed through scrappage schemes

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    But, given that lack of clarity, it suggests a poorly worded petition.
    On a re-read I would agree, it is open to interpretation. Prompting a parliamentary debate however is no bad thing. I would hope they would come to a sensible conclusion. After all they're doing such a good job with Brexit/NHS/housing/building regs reforms/schools/.... right? ....right? Do I hear an "a-men"?


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