Where will the batteries come from? and where will they go?

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I always thought battery cars were a stop gap solution until hydrogen anyway?

You mean like the Toyota Mirai - I saw one locally and that was surprising!

[peterb]

I always thought battery cars were a stop gap solution until hydrogen anyway?

There are still significant problems with hydrogen - starting with production and storage - and utilisation - internal combustion or fuel cell electric with some hybrid battery/fuel cell combination. But storage as a mobile energy source is not straightforward.

Methanol fuel cells might be realistic - but I'm not sure what the energy density is.

[badass]

thanks for that Hex.. we will not agree on this.. we both know that

so lets lurch from one limited transport to another, yeah? lets ignore the fact it won't work for ever and carry on anyway, right?

You do realise that humanity for its entire existence has lurched from one limited technology to another(usually less) limited technology.....right?
Also, absolutely nothing in this universe will ever "work for ever" nor ever has. Including technology.

The energy usage of an electric car per mile traveled is around half that of an equivalent sized/luxury level fossil fuel powered car. Even taking into account the inefficiency of electricity generation at power stations.

Secondly, Energy usage of a fossil fueled car is about the same in the first year as for its manufacture.

Thirdly, lets completely forget that localised pollution is hugely reduced with BEV's. Just brake dust and particulates from the tyres. Not all of the other crap that's pumped out of exhausts that kills people and makes them less intelligent https://www.independent.co.uk/enviro...-a8510431.html

But hey, lets be petrolheads and only listen to opinions and information that supports our desire to keep driving cars with engines driven by explosions being more environmentally friendly and socially responsible

I say that as someone who plans to replace his current car with something with 8 cylinders before it's not feasible any more

[Saracen]

I always thought battery cars were a stop gap solution until hydrogen anyway?

Same problem .... where will all the hydrogen come from?

Oh, wait ....

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

You do realise that humanity for its entire existence has lurched from one limited technology to another(usually less) limited technology.....right?
Also, absolutely nothing in this universe will ever "work for ever" nor ever has. Including technology.

The energy usage of an electric car per mile traveled is around half that of an equivalent sized/luxury level fossil fuel powered car. Even taking into account the inefficiency of electricity generation at power stations.

Secondly, Energy usage of a fossil fueled car is about the same in the first year as for its manufacture.

Thirdly, lets completely forget that localised pollution is hugely reduced with BEV's. Just brake dust and particulates from the tyres. Not all of the other crap that's pumped out of exhausts that kills people and makes them less intelligent https://www.independent.co.uk/enviro...-a8510431.html

But hey, lets be petrolheads and only listen to opinions and information that supports our desire to keep driving cars with engines driven by explosions being more environmentally friendly and socially responsible

I say that as someone who plans to replace his current car with something with 8 cylinders before it's not feasible any more

Carheads should probably try to wean themselves off using cars then and learn to use public transport or cycle or walk. Electric cars are champaign environmentalism when the bigger issue is the unsustainable lifestyles we have in the west. The most environmentally friendly car is one you don't use even if it ran on coal.

I don't think any of us are true environmentalists though - just saying.

[peterb]

Carheads should probably try to wean themselves off using cars then and learn to use public transport or cycle or walk. Electric cars are champaign environmentalism when the bigger issue is the unsustainable lifestyles we have in the west. The most environmentally friendly car is one you don't use even if it ran on coal.

I don't think any of us are true environmentalists though - just saying.

Try cycling to the supermarket and back with a week’s worth of groceries - or using public transport if you live outside a major city.

BEVs are ideal short commuter runs and local journeys, and when technology increases ranges, probably for the occasional longer journey too.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Try cycling to the supermarket and back with a week’s worth of groceries - or using public transport if you live outside a major city.

BEVs are ideal short commuter runs and local journeys, and when technology increases ranges, probably for the occasional longer journey too.

Try walking back with shopping and walking miles to work then? So yes I know how it is. Plus most of majority of this country is urbanised so let's look at that section first not using a farmer living in the deepest parts of Scotland as cover

Now try living in a poorer country and see how people live and how they manage to not use cars.

The fact is the car industry has made sure everything is based around them on the west instead of developing alternatives.

The fact is if the world tried to follow our usage of cars for all the population it would not be sustainable and also convenience is a choice. Nobody said caring about the environment was going to be easy.

I just find the smugness of EV advocates over petrolheads really amusing. Almost like Brian from Family Guy. Yet no person I know who owns an EV or hybrid seems to be using them less. They still buy their imported food,go on their foreign holidays,etc.

They CBA to even walk when they could.

This is why I find your a better environmentalist than you argument amongst car fans a bit hollow.

Shrugs.

[kalniel]

There are still significant problems with hydrogen - starting with production and storage - and utilisation - internal combustion or fuel cell electric with some hybrid battery/fuel cell combination. But storage as a mobile energy source is not straightforward.

Methanol fuel cells might be realistic - but I'm not sure what the energy density is.

Hence it's a future solution and batteries are the stop gap Battery cars aren't there just yet, but they're looking more feasible than they once did when there were significant problems to overcome.

Same problem .... where will all the hydrogen come from?

Oh, wait ....

The good thing is many of the tech developments for battery cars (eg electric motors) will remain useful for hydrogen.

[peterb]

Now try living in a poorer country and see how people live and how they manage to not use cars.

Many use beasts of burden - of course that has been tried in the past in London in the 17th and 18th century - with its own pollution problems.

The smug "use public transport" argument is laughable to those that don't have access to it! I occasionally need hospital check-ups - I can get to London by train in 90 minutes with a ten minute walk each end to/from the station. A trip of 75 miles. To get to my local hospital in Aouthampton - 10 miles away - takes an hour by public transport. I could drive it in 30 minutes on a bad traffic day. My old house, 5 miles from the station had no direct public transport to the station - so no either walk - over an hour or drive. Guess what - I drove - but a journey ideally suited to a BEV (or hybrid).

[scaryjim]

Try cycling to the supermarket and back with a week’s worth of groceries ...

I've been doing this for at least 20 years on a semi-regular basis, including recently extending the round trip to around 30 miles for certain specialist shops. No problem with a properly designed bike - just ask the dutch My wife used to do the same thing when her kids were small - week's shopping for a family, on her bike.

It's entirely doable, without too much effort. It's habit and culture that makes people think they need cars, not - on the most part - actual need.

[peterb]

I've been doing this for at least 20 years on a semi-regular basis, including recently extending the round trip to around 30 miles for certain specialist shops. No problem with a properly designed bike - just ask the dutch My wife used to do the same thing when her kids were small - week's shopping for a family, on her bike.

It's entirely doable, without too much effort. It's habit and culture that makes people think they need cars, not - on the most part - actual need.

Fair point - convenience does play a large part - another solution is more frequent shopping with smaller loads. And I certainly use my car less now than I used to because I have more time and I use the train more for longer journeys than I used to. (And Holland is somewhat flatter than parts of the UK! )

[Saracen]

I've been doing this for at least 20 years on a semi-regular basis, including recently extending the round trip to around 30 miles for certain specialist shops. No problem with a properly designed bike - just ask the dutch My wife used to do the same thing when her kids were small - week's shopping for a family, on her bike.

It's entirely doable, without too much effort. It's habit and culture that makes people think they need cars, not - on the most part - actual need.

Round here that would be ..... cycle to shops, walk home lugging your shopping because some thieving git had nicked your bike.

More seriously, first, how do you cope with large, awkward and bulky loads? For instance, bags of potatoes, multiple boxes of cereal, large (and heavy) boxes of washing powder, two or three 4-pint bottles of milk, and a couple of bags of frozen stuff that'll ruin if it's allowed to defrost?

Oh, and of course, the whole cycling thing depends on being both young enough and fit enough. Not everybody is.

But if you are, and can and do do this, I applaud it. Seriously. No sarcasm. Well done.

[DanceswithUnix]

Carheads should probably try to wean themselves off using cars then and learn to use public transport or cycle or walk.

I took a major paycut to work mostly from home, partly because South West Trains gave me the worst commute experience in my decades of working. That was 10 minutes cycling to the railway station, a 7 minute walk at the other end, and what was supposed to be a 30 minute train journey. It sounded OK, but in reality the trains were unreliable, cramped and there was that worry when you try to leave the office that someone will want "just a quick chat" and then you missed the train and end up standing on a platform for 25 minutes waiting for the next one. Sometimes the trains just stop for an hour whilst some problem gets sorted out, sometimes they tell you to get out onto the platform because they decided to re-purpose the train you are on so it is no longer going to your destination. The biggest joke, when I gave up and started driving to work it cost me £30 per week in petrol vs over £50 in train fares, so almost halving my commute cost as well as improving my quality of life by not having to stand around on platforms or replace bits of my bike that were stolen in the station bike park.

Walking or cycling to work is great if you can manage it (I've done both) but life seldom seems to allow it.

As for batteries, I suspect that self driving taxis will turn up before there is a supply problem, devastating the private car industry into the sort of luxury that horse ownership is now. I expect that to happen before hydrogen power becomes properly viable.

[badass]

Genuinely surprised to see so many who believe Hydrogen is a future transport tech to take over batteries. Can't see it ever happening TBH.

[directhex]

Genuinely surprised to see so many who believe Hydrogen is a future transport tech to take over batteries. Can't see it ever happening TBH.

It's unlikely to ever be practical for consumers. It's got a lot of potential for freight.

[DanceswithUnix]

Genuinely surprised to see so many who believe Hydrogen is a future transport tech to take over batteries. Can't see it ever happening TBH.

Hydrogen, a stop gap to dark matter? Seems as likely for cars