How long before Aston Martin collapses then?

[scaryjim]

Fantastic example of function over form - together with the Skoda Roomster - very useful cars for some.

And the Honda FR-V, which is sat outside my house right now and has been doing sterling work for pushing two years with barely a sniff of trouble, despite being > 10 years old when we bought it. A car you can drop the back seats and still seat three adults in is not to be sniffed at

[Saracen999]

agreed...but it's still on the drawing board and they want to sell in next year

And very possibly will .... at least to the tune of confirmed contracts and non-refundable substantial deposits.

[Galant]

Thanks guys. This thread is fascinating.

I appreciate a fine automobile as much as the next man but I'm not a 'car guy' so this is an interesting discussion on the car industry and what must be an immense challenge to succeed by selling something that is both functional and beautiful - and knowing who values what. Buying a car because it drives well, or because it's reliable, or because one finds it beautiful, or because it's a status symbol... I don't envy those who have to figure that out in what I would imagine is a more and more competitive market.

Do any of you know which cars or companies have proven most successful in terms of those sorts of categories - what is it that has made the most successful car companies reach that success?

[kalniel]

Do any of you know which cars or companies have proven most successful in terms of those sorts of categories - what is it that has made the most successful car companies reach that success?

Define success?

If success is defined by what a company is worth then Toyota are the most successful, followed by VW auto group, followed by Tesla(!). That's their market capitalisation, which you could say was a combination of profit they're making now plus potential for profit in the future.

That profit comes from many things, but it's largely making a product that people want to buy together with efficient manufacturing, correct pricing and so on and it's not as simple as making a cheap product since value for money and reliability are considered important for future products.

Toyota's success is worth a thesis by itself, but factors include making global products, while using regional manufacturing and in most cases massively improving the efficiency of said regional manufacturing through a once innovative managerial/project management paradigm - which has influenced most other sectors nowadays.

VAGs success again has many roots, but I'd say a large factor is economies of scale and some of their manufacturing machines/tooling is mind blowing - they have a ruthless targeting of manufacturing efficiency.

So in those two you are either getting more car for less consumer money, or getting the same/better car but costing the manufacturer less money to make it. When people talk about toyota reliability or VAG/german quality that's the outcome. It quite literally costs VAG less money to use a higher quality part. And economies of scale keep giving returns - you can pay for the best designers, because that cost is spread over a larger number of units etc.

Tesla's, on the other hand, is quite different - they are much smaller in terms of volume of sales, but investors are betting on them for the future, and the post internal-combustion world.

[Galant]

Define success?

If success is defined by what a company is worth then Toyota are the most successful, followed by VW auto group, followed by Tesla(!). That's their market capitalisation, which you could say was a combination of profit they're making now plus potential for profit in the future.

That profit comes from many things, but it's largely making a product that people want to buy together with efficient manufacturing, correct pricing and so on and it's not as simple as making a cheap product since value for money and reliability are considered important for future products.

Toyota's success is worth a thesis by itself, but factors include making global products, while using regional manufacturing and in most cases massively improving the efficiency of said regional manufacturing through a once innovative managerial/project management paradigm - which has influenced most other sectors nowadays.

VAGs success again has many roots, but I'd say a large factor is economies of scale and some of their manufacturing machines/tooling is mind blowing - they have a ruthless targeting of manufacturing efficiency.

So in those two you are either getting more car for less consumer money, or getting the same/better car but costing the manufacturer less money to make it. When people talk about toyota reliability or VAG/german quality that's the outcome. It quite literally costs VAG less money to use a higher quality part. And economies of scale keep giving returns - you can pay for the best designers, because that cost is spread over a larger number of units etc.

Tesla's, on the other hand, is quite different - they are much smaller in terms of volume of sales, but investors are betting on them for the future, and the post internal-combustion world.

Thanks.

I was thinking in terms of the thread's question - Aston Martin potentially closing. So I suppose success in that context is having a sustainable business where you're able to remain a player in the market long term. Aston obviously fall into the luxury/executive arena rather than mass consumer market, so the game is different - or is it?

[kalniel]

Thanks.

I was thinking in terms of the thread's question - Aston Martin potentially closing. So I suppose success in that context is having a sustainable business where you're able to remain a player in the market long term. Aston obviously fall into the luxury/executive arena rather than mass consumer market, so the game is different - or is it?

In the case of a publicly listed company then it's ultimately up to the shareholders - the majority of which will appoint a board/chair etc. who determines the approach. Shareholders have many motivations, some want a return on their money, some (hopefully most) want to keep Aston Martin producing the kind of cars that they're famous for.

[DanceswithUnix]

When people talk about toyota reliability or VAG/german quality that's the outcome.

Don't totally agree, whilst Toyota have earned their reliability claims (I never seem to see one broken down) I think the VAG reputation is purely down to good advertising. Their ability to manipulate their image is amazing, allowing them to sell the same parts VW on Audi, Seat and Skoda whilst pushing each into their own market niche. That "Selling the same thing as different products" is a key to success in any market, but I do think their advertising would be more honest as "If only all of a VW was as reliable as the hazard flashers" from the number I see littering side of the roads.

[Ttaskmaster]

Don't totally agree, whilst Toyota have earned their reliability claims (I never seem to see one broken down)

Is that not because their parts were made by Honda?

[kalniel]

Don't totally agree, whilst Toyota have earned their reliability claims (I never seem to see one broken down) I think the VAG reputation is purely down to good advertising. Their ability to manipulate their image is amazing, allowing them to sell the same parts VW on Audi, Seat and Skoda whilst pushing each into their own market niche. That "Selling the same thing as different products" is a key to success in any market, but I do think their advertising would be more honest as "If only all of a VW was as reliable as the hazard flashers" from the number I see littering side of the roads.

There's a reason I said 'reliability' for Toyota and 'quality' for VAG - perceived quality would be even more accurate, but I certainly don't mean reliability, it's a sort of 'premium feeling' that VAG have spent a lot of research developing meaning you get the impression of quality without necessarily buying a more expensive (to make) car.

[Zak33]

Don't totally agree, whilst Toyota have earned their reliability claims (I never seem to see one broken down) I think the VAG reputation is purely down to good advertising. Their ability to manipulate their image is amazing, allowing them to sell the same parts VW on Audi, Seat and Skoda whilst pushing each into their own market niche. That "Selling the same thing as different products" is a key to success in any market, but I do think their advertising would be more honest as "If only all of a VW was as reliable as the hazard flashers" from the number I see littering side of the roads.

this is 100% the best accurate description ever. It's entirely accurate

Honda deserve a mention for managing to sell and create reliable cars, bikes, boat engines, lawnmowers, generators etc etc. They, like Toyota deserve to be recognised as succesfull

but Honda is 40% the size of Toyota

[DanceswithUnix]

There's a reason I said 'reliability' for Toyota and 'quality' for VAG - perceived quality would be even more accurate, but I certainly don't mean reliability, it's a sort of 'premium feeling' that VAG have spent a lot of research developing meaning you get the impression of quality without necessarily buying a more expensive (to make) car.

I get that, but I am just puzzled as to how VW have a "quality" reputation. Companies have been careful about things like door closing with a heavy thump rather than a tinny clang for years, they all do that, and again it was the Japanese that started the whole trend of analysing sound and feel of cars for perceived quality. The BMW trend of piping synthetic engine sounds into the car is probably the worst of that, I hope that isn't catching on.

Even the diesel cheating fiasco doesn't seem to have damaged their reputation in the slightest, despite the disrespect it shows to the customers they lied to as well as governments.

[MrRockliffe]

Aston have a strong heritage, a good brand and great assets. In addition, they've got great access to a strong workforce where they're based, which is currently untapped. I used to live around the corner from their factory, and have many friends and family in the area that have completed engineering-based degrees that are struggling to find work.

I think Aston need a culture change in order to succeed; there's currently an arrogance about them, much like McLaren.

I think overall they have a strong chance in succeeding, however it's highly dependent on their management.

[Zak33]

I think Aston need a culture change in order to succeed; there's currently an arrogance about them, much like McLaren.

very true.. their IS an arrogance I agree

and that can only be legit if youve got money pouring in from every angle.. which they aint

[Apex]

ouch
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...eks-keep-road/

[kalniel]

DBX is looking good though. What's the betting that the govt. scrap emissions targets in order to help Aston out?

[Ttaskmaster]

ouch
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...eks-keep-road/

Why ouch? Over £2 a week?
That's a lot less than some newspaper websites want to charge you.... Ohhhh, you meant the article content?

Yeah they're either screwed or they'll be bought out by foreign powers.
Guess it's over either way.