Beginners DSLR

[brammers]

Hoi kopite, welcome to the DSLR club.

You'll be wanting to take a look at the basic cameras from Sony, Canon and Nikon if you're going new on a budget - that's A200, 1000D and D60 respectively. There's others - older models still float about in stock in various places, but lets not confuse things.

If you're happy with the Sony, and there's reason why not to be for a beginner, then my advice is just to stick with the kit lens for now. A 75-300 lens is... Hmmmm. The Sony one that you'll be looking at fits in below the Canon and Nikon VR lenses, the Sony G which slots in above them is way out of budget for the moment. I'm not sure that you'll get much use out of it - apart from a quick trip to the zoo it's not really great.

What I heartily reccomend is to choose a decent starting lens and then give it a few months before you know what you're after - that way you won't buy and sell 3 or 4 times before you settle on a kit. Lens buying works kind of like this - if you buy budget lenses new you'll loose value when you sell on, if you buy quality lenses 2nd hand or new you won't loose very much - I've even gained. Buying a budget 75-300 will loose you about 70quid if you decide you don't like/want it - and it IS a budget lens - it's ok for the price but not great.

Bobster will be pleased to note that the A200 features a dedicated ISO button As to the control wheel on the A100 - I personally liked it - what other budget camera gives you access to (deep breath) metering mode, flash mode, focus mode, ISO, white balance, DR features, drive mode, EV compensation, AEL + slow synch and JPG shooting parameters/RAW mode without diving into menus? Yes - it takes a day or so to learn how to use all that power, but that's how Minolta's have always been designed - a button for everything. I have to say that I came from a Minolta A2 which also had that top wheel, so I'd had a few months to get used to it.

Quick note on the Sony system - the basic lenses are there but if you want T&S lenses or super-telephoto primes you should go elsewhere. Otherwise the lenses are excellent - in fact Sony beats out Canon for the lenses I use - their 24-70 2.8 & 135mm prime(s!!!) are all better than the Canon equivalent. Can't see the 16-35 2.8 being worse than Canon's either. It's been a while since the 135 f2 L was second best - I'm sure Canon users will agree that competition is a good thing

What you might regret is having to go 2nd hand for a few essentials (50mm f1.7 - but at least you get autofocus and the build is a lot better than the Canon's) and we have no 85mm f1.8 - only a selection of 6(!) f1.4s... The cheapest of those is about 300quid 2nd hand though - not a budget option. We also get our 3rd party options a few months after the Canon & Nikon versions - so if you want the latest Sigma or Tamron you'll have to wait a little - there's a LOT of people wanting the new version of the Siggy 70-200 2.8 which has only just started shipping in Sony mount. We also don't get the 200-500 f2.8 :'(

2nd hand? Yeeeeeeees......... Camera bodies fail. I've killed one and sent 2 in for warranty repairs - and I've got another waiting out of warranty til I get the cash. While basically reliable they're very complex and can be sensitive to lots of things. Both myself and a friend just spent a month bouncing about Mongolia with SLRs - a Dynax 7 and a 5D. We both reckon our cameras need tune-ups now - both of us reckon the AF is out of alignement. On the other hand maybe you're buying an unwanted birthday present? Shutter count is a good way to check but personally I'd be wary of a 2nd hand camera unless you know the seller, even though I'd take a new 7D over an A200 or a new 30D over a 1000D any day.

A lot of accusations of camera bias float about forums - I try not to get stuck in it. For the record I shoot a Sony A900, but I very seriously considered a D700 and am currently roaming Beijing trying to find a nice Nikon D80 set-up for my friend. If you want pros and cons of the other brands feel free to ask

[BUFF]

ahhh... just checked out the back of the newer entry level Canons- the 400/450/1000 have such a large LCD that they only place they can stick the buttons is along the top and to the right..

You also forgot the 40D & 50D.
Nikon, Sony etc. don't seem to have a problem using a 3" LCD & still keeping the buttons up the left side & strangely neither does the 5D MkII.

well this is what i'm talking about the A100
[IMG]
i've not used an A200 or newer..

& it's the odd man out. It was Sony's first DSLR but since then all the other bodies have dedicated ISO buttons.

[Bobster]

yeah but Nikon and Sony don't have a jog dial and dedicated joystick - moving or changing the size of those would change the ergonomics of the camera, so they moved the buttons that you don't use very often instead.. the major controls for the 20/30/40/50D are on the top next to the shutter button..

[brammers]

I'm confused Bobster. What's a jog dial? Are you comparing entry level models from Sony and Nikon with Canon's midrange series?

[Flibb]

On the new nikons you push the iso button and turn the dial, iso is displayed in the viewfinder. iso button is where your left thumb sits, and the dial is where your right fingers are. Think you can select whether you hold the iso button or press and release.

[Ramedge]

On the new nikons you push the iso button and turn the dial, iso is displayed in the viewfinder. iso button is where your left thumb sits, and the dial is where your right fingers are. Think you can select whether you hold the iso button or press and release.

Isn't your left thumb going to be under the lens? I think what Bobster is complaining about is the lack of not being able to change ISO when you camera is up to your eye, your composing the shot and you dont want to miss it. Your setting the camera as your watching for the shot. Last thing you want to do is realise your not set right and having to take the camera down from your eye to look on a little lcd screen and press a button round the back of the camera to sort out.

On the D80 its down the side of the screen and on the d200/300/700 its on the top left of the camera.
Which i guess would mean if you where taking a shot and needed to change your ISO you would have to take your left hand off from under the lens to change it.

that annoyed me with my D80 and as well you have to look at the little LCD screen to see what your changing it to. (I can't remember it coming up in the viewfinder?)
I dont have to move any thing but a finger on my 50D, Meaning I can hold the camera ready to shoot at all times. Having said that I used a 1D at the weekend and to change the ISO I had to press and hold two buttons at the same time and use a dial to change it. That was a real pain.

But with a lot of cameras there are function buttons all over the body you can set to do what ever you like so I am sure its not a too much of a problem and its not going to be a problem to a Beginner. First shots are most likely to by done in AUTO modes any who!

I am not sure what the Sony's are like with high ISO but I know Nikon use Sony sensors and my D80 was terrible at high ISO and looking back on my purchase last year as a complete Beginner with DSLRS . I wish I knew then I what I know now about cameras. Because I would of got myself a cheap second hand 20D or something. First of all I would have saved a lot of money and Secondly I would of had a more versatile camera.

[Bobster]

I'm confused Bobster. What's a jog dial? Are you comparing entry level models from Sony and Nikon with Canon's midrange series?

jog dial is a large dial on the back of the 20D+ and 1 series (yes i am talking about mid range series, you can pick up a 20D for under 200 now..) you turn it to adjust the aperture on the lens, and skip through images when in preview mode..

Think you can select whether you hold the iso button or press and release.

glad they allowed the user to select, what a pain having to hold a button to change ISO..

[BUFF]

yeah but Nikon and Sony don't have a jog dial and dedicated joystick

mmm, Sonys do have a dedicated joystick on the back.
I'll admit that they don't have the bit that rotates around it but it's also struck me as that is 1 of the Canon idiosyncrasies that I couldn't really see the advantage to.

[Bobster]

mmm, Sonys do have a dedicated joystick on the back.
I'll admit that they don't have the bit that rotates around it but it's also struck me as that is 1 of the Canon idiosyncrasies that I couldn't really see the advantage to.

the jog dial is great, so easy to quickly change the aperture at the flick of your thumb

[brammers]

jog dial is a large dial on the back of the 20D+ and 1 series (yes i am talking about mid range series, you can pick up a 20D for under 200 now..) you turn it to adjust the aperture on the lens, and skip through images when in preview mode..

glad they allowed the user to select, what a pain having to hold a button to change ISO..

Why are you comparing a used 20D to a new A200? Shouldn't you compare a used 20D to a used 7D - also about 200 nowdays?

The mid-range and up Minolta/Sonys don't have the jog dial - they have the rear control dial instead. On the Alphas in A mode it's either exposure compensation or aperture adjustment (you get the choice) and in review mode it's front dial for swapping between images, rear dial for zooming (no choice) - joystick moves the zoom loupe around. I really like the way you can set a zoom on one image then use the front dial to flick between images to see which one's the sharpest - it stays zoomed in on the same spot, a bit like compare mode in lightroom on one screen. Great when you've taken a burst and want to see which you should keep - and when your RAW files are 40mb you do only want to keep one!!!

ISO button is press then scroll the wheel - it sits just behind the shutter button and can be reached with your shooting finger. Press it and the ISO pops up in the viewfinder. If you want the function button on the rear can also be bound to ISO.

The budget bodies are certainly not as user friendly as the mid-range bodies, but designers have learnt and now the essential controls are all there - I hated the 300D but the 450D is a lot better - almost everything I need sneaks its way in. Maybe the D80 is the best example - twin control dials and good selection for other functions. Mid-range bodies take it a step up, but then you're going second hand on some seriously old technology... Buyer's decision.

[Bobster]

7D takes over 2 seconds to wake up from power off/sleep
7D isn't a fully metal body
7D is worse with high ISO

i was asked which camera, so i suggested the 20 or 30D because for the price, its a fantastic body with excellent bang for buck and the ISO noise performance is great

[brammers]

7D has built in IS.
7D has better LCD.
7D has built-in wireless flash controls.

20D is nice - I used one for a couple of days again only last month - but it really feels old to me and as said before there's a lot to go wrong. A 7D is also nice, probably still my favourite control setup and body feel of all time, but it also feels old - things have just moved on. Between those 2 I'd be pretty torn - IS Vs 5FPS in Jpg (RAW is a bit painful with those old write speeds) - never really noticed any massive high ISO advantage though for the 20D.

For a beginner I think there's a lot to be said for the peace of mind of a warranty and knowing where your camera came from. Lenses however, apart from real exotics, 2nd hand every time.

[BUFF]

the jog dial is great, so easy to quickly change the aperture at the flick of your thumb

as brammers said we use a control dial for that, different but same.

7D takes over 2 seconds to wake up from power off/sleep

but has great battery life for a body of that generation so just leave it switched on ...
& if your Canon has an IS lens that's going to introduce a delay of a second or two ...

7D isn't a fully metal body

I think that you will find that it compares to the 20D in terms of build quality

7D is worse with high ISO

you reckon?
It's normally considered to have good ISO 3200 performance again for a body of that generation.
Doesn't really matter to me anyway as I don't shoot at ISO3200.

I do agree that my A700 makes my 7D feel clunky in operation (still hard to beat the ergonomics of a 7D though) but I'm sure that's true with most new v old bodies.

[Dogz]

camerapricebuster.com says a200 with kit lens is now £243, which is bloody amazing value for money really.

[kopite]

Aye Sony are doing a cash back offer of 30 quid off it so lots of places have dropped the price now