Death of video recorder finally played.

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22-11-2004, 09:43 AM
DR

Death of video recorder finally played.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davids Monday Morning Moan - From the front page

Not normally one for the front page, but this is something which is going to annoy me - the move to the digital home is one of bugs and issues. The day of the video recorder was good, we could press 'record' and 99% of the time it would. Everyone bashed VCRs for being hard to use. Yet you try and get a DVD Recorder to tune in properly and record without skipping or glitches? Answer - Well for one it isn't seamless.

Yet is seems according to a story over at the BBC they are reporting that the biggest High St retailer - Dixon’s Store Group (Dixons, Currys, PCWorld, Link) are going to stop selling the classic video player. So we are going to be forced in to using a DVD Recorder? The reason? Well they are claiming that DVD sales are outstripping this product in sales by 40 to 1.

Don't get me wrong - I adore new technology, and I make wise decisions on my consumer electronics front. I want things which work first time, without fail. I personally don't want a video recorder/player, but others might. I do believe they have an important part in most living rooms (especially with Xmas just around the corner).

When DVD drives for PCs first came around 6 years ago I got a Pioneer slot loading SCSI unit, and I know others who also invested in DVDs. At the time I was uncertain if the medium would take off - with the failure of the VCDs. However, it looks as if they have finally won (with a lot of investment from film companies and stores to push it!)

When I finally moved house - about 9 months ago I moved to a converted pub, I decided to be wise with the integration of technology in to my home. I have no cables running for networking, everything is WiFi, I have 2 DVD players and no VCRs. I have managed to move to a 'digital home' but it has taken a lot of planning. Yes I know I can't have a x.1 setup :( but sacrafices have to be made.

However, I have tried to use a DVD recorder, and failed miserably. I didn't want to get the video out of my walk in wardrobe (yes I still have one, but it is not setup at all). So I had to look at other options, which was either a) Media Centre System (I still do not think HTPC is ready for my needs – however, the Microsoft implementation is the most impressive yet.), or b) Sky+ (TiVo).

I opted for the Sky+ (TiVo) solution, this though has not been problem free with issues including engineers coming out and laying white cables all over the woodwork (spoiling my hard work). I have in the last week moved the Sky+ box in to a cupboard with the use of a 'Remote Eye' to allow me to change channels; this means you can't see the box anymore. Since I had to route a phone line to this point my WiFi unit and ADSL router is now located in this cupboard.

I believe that the difference between and enthuisast part and a consumer part is the simple word - seamless this means that it works out of the box, and should, in my eyes 'integrate perfectly in to the home with other applications and mediums already in place.' Call me cynical but companies seem to rush products out of the door without properly testing them.

For examples, take Media Centre - I configured a box with MCE2005 compliant parts, and drivers, and the video stuttered from Sky+ when fed to it. I don't care about recording with dual tuners on to a Media Centre system, neither do I really want to feed my video via it - but it does cut down on cables and should make life easier. I configured a Dual Opteron with a Hauppauge card and ATi Graphics and it still stuttered, that was my final effort after hours of playing. Surely Microsoft should have created a solution which integrates with Sky properly, since, at the end of the day there is millions of subscribers to this service in the UK alone. However, with my old video recorder I can record Sky if I want to (and didn't have Sky+) Surely it would make sense to BSkyB to help integrate the Sky+ solution to MCE, since at the end of the day there is room for both in the market.

http://www.HEXUS.net#video
22-11-2004, 11:21 AM
Butuz

What you say is right about the bugs and issues. "A technology" will never really be ready for mass home use whilst it has bugs, issues, needs patches, etc.

The video recorder analogy is a great one, you press one button to record, if your program doesnt record, the chances are you screwed it up (wrong channel, etc) not the video recorder.

The other issue with Windows Media Centre 2005 is that you have to buy a new PC to legally get it. As someone with a few small, powerful, quiet shuttles lying around, why the hell should i then have to go to mesh or evesham and buy yet another PC, just so i can get my hands on what is after all just a small windows XP patch. Do microsoft actually intend to make inroads into everyones houses? Because their going the wrong way about it. If it was a low cost upgrade for XP, or a downloadable patch, you'd see MCE in many many houses, and then who would buy Sky+ ?

Butuz
22-11-2004, 11:32 AM
DR

What happens is when your hard drive fails?
22-11-2004, 11:34 AM
Zak33

THERE IS NO WAY THE VHS CAN DIE

period.

Lets take some examples cos todays announcement makes me hate Dixons even more than ever.

Me and Sair have Only Fools and Horses on VIDEO...thats right.....VHS tapes.. :D

We like them. You wanna know why? Cos you put them in and watch them, then take them out at ANY point and put them on the shelf....then 3 weeks later put it back in, PSUH PLAY and it plays where I stopped./

DONT ANYONE TELL ME DVD's DO THAT....they do but only with a memory button...and only after 2 minutes sodding about while it reads all the menus and decides if I should have to watch the bloody Legal Jargon AGAIN :(

/gets a bit angrier

NOW...lets get REALLY MAD........DVD recorders are all well and good, BUT when you taker the disk out, it forgets where it was too......

AND lets get really nasty....don't ANYONE tell me about HARD DISK DRIVES.....

just dont......

I have VHS videos that are 10....that's TEN ...years old...and the funny thing is they will still work in another 20 years...yup.....30 years old.

Find me a hard disk thats gonna do that? Of ya go, Mr Bloody Dixon knob-end...and WHILE YOU ARE OUT THERE, ASK THE MANUFACTURERS OF THE BLOODY THINGS IF....IF...HE'S GONNA BUY SCSI DRIVES OR CRAP OEM ONES

Oh I cannot BELIEVE that VHS will die.....it cant.

I've got stuff videod fron telly that rocks. It just CANT go on CD-R....and VIDEO CD...and SUPER VIDEO CD....pah.

I LOVE technology...love it...desire it even.

I WANT A HARD DISK RECORDER for Coronation Street , when Mum rings...it can record....and I'll watch it after the old trout has hung up...BUT MY ONLY FOOLS AND HORSES VIDEOS ARE SACRED !!!

fools.....Dixons are worthless fools. Total boycott.....

I might walk in JUST so II can walk out in a huff....in fact...tomorrow is my day off....

and I'm gonna go and ask them for a VHS brochure.
22-11-2004, 12:35 PM
Zedmeister

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zak33

and I'm gonna go and ask them for a VHS brochure.

No doubt you'll get a spotty gimp who will try to flog you a DVD recorder claiming that it makes telly "Go Faster"...

I agree though, VHS is handy in that; no copy protection, start off where you left off, no copy protection, nice analogue format that can record just about anything. Oh, and did I mention no copy protection?
22-11-2004, 12:58 PM
Stoo

Actually, the humble VCR does have copy protection built in, it's just that the copy protection code isn't broadcast.
22-11-2004, 01:03 PM
Zedmeister

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoo

Actually, the humble VCR does have copy protection built in, it's just that the copy protection code isn't broadcast.

Really? Good grief, I didn't know that!
22-11-2004, 01:09 PM
Jonny M

Can't beat an SVHS recorder for hardcore-ness :)
22-11-2004, 01:12 PM
Zedmeister

Or expense
22-11-2004, 02:09 PM
Rys

My DVD deck remembers the last played position of all the disks I've ever inserted into it.

For example, I was watching Jay and Silent Bob a few weeks back but never made it to the end of the movie. I stopped it and since I was watching it I've had cause to use the deck to record some stuff and watch other movies. I put Jay and Silent Bob back in the other day and it started playing from where I left off.

Clever things these days ;)

VHS is a vile format and does need to die. Progress please! Rewinding and fast forward that doesn't happen instantly is terrible. And don't even get me started on picture quality. And no, VHS won't last for ever. Leave tapes on your shelf long enough and they'll degrade.

Yes, that'll happen to DVDs too, but meh, VHS won't survive eternity like some are claiming.

And the disk drive in your Sky+ might fail. NEWS FLASH, IT'S A PIECE OF CONSUMER ELECTRONICS! Stuff dies. Use your nice warranty and have it replaced and quit whinging. Your VHS deck is never going to fail I take it? Never ever going to have a tape wrap itself round the heads? I see.

Oh noes, copy protection. Just keep the original safe? Put the disks back in their box and keep them scratch free? You shouldn't have to copy a DVD. Using a DVD recorder , especially with a hard disk inside, lets you copy whatever the hell you like, that you've recorded.

VHS is rubbish, stop living in the past.
22-11-2004, 02:18 PM
Stewart

VHS will die, its on its last legs already, DVD will soon take over completly, mirroring the cassette tape - CD situation.

As for hard drives breaking - yes they do, just like everything else with moving parts. Video Recorders break, DVD players break, Hard Drives break. Still rather have the latest and greatest tech to hand, and have the benefit of it whilst it works, then repair or replace.

Better that than hanging on to an outdated and dieing tech, surly?
22-11-2004, 02:23 PM
Zedmeister

With regards to copy protection, I was more concerned with the fact that some content providers (Over in yank, at least) are looking to stop broadcasts being copied - no recording of your favourite movies, comedies, et al. VHS doesn't allow that - Leastways, I used to think that until Stoo corrected me. Still, tis food for thought...
22-11-2004, 02:24 PM
Zedmeister

Thing is, if a dvd drive breaks, you don't have to replace your entire vid collection. Trouble with a Hard Drive, if it breaks, corrupts, whatever - Bang goes your recordings...
22-11-2004, 02:32 PM
daniel_owen_uk

Was called round to a friends uncle yesterday, he just bought some new kit;

1 x LG 42" Plasma Screen
1 x Sony DVD recorder
1 x Skybox

Firstly GIT!!!

Secondly I found the dvd recorder an absolute dream to use compared to vhs, quality is superb, even on Extended Playback.

Thirdly it was nice because he bought 5 x DVD+RWs which didn't work (-r or RAM only), so had the opportunity to liberate them from him :P
22-11-2004, 02:35 PM
turkster

I agree with Zak.
PVR, hard disk and DVD recording is a young and (IMO) immature technology which is no way close to denting the maturity and simplicity of VHS recording.

Almost everyone has a VHS recorder, the reason beeing because they have been around for years. People have become accustomed to them, people know how to use them, and even techno-phobes can use them.

As can be seen form David's experience you need to be a techie to get a PVR, HTPC, XP MCE etc system up and running at all (let alone seamlessly) with the rest of your setup. How many people in the real world will have the patience or the expertise to try and get such a setup to work properly?

I think it will be a few years before the technology is mature enough for a widespread use. To a certain extent the fact that the technology is based on PC components goes against it. Any PVR etc system you buy today is going to be as good as obsolete in two or three years time and the components will probably start dying soon after :(. Yet my 3 year old VHS system works as good as the day I got it and is in no way obsolete. Considering that these PVR etc systems are way more expensive than a a VHS player I cannot see how they are a sensible option for the general public.

Also you can pick up cheap secondhand VHS videos for next to nothing while second hand DVDs are relatively expensive.

TBH i think the Dixons figures do not spell the death of the VHS recorder. They probably indicate the reliability and maturity of the technology, most people have VHS recorders so maybe the only people buying them are doing so to replace broken ones. On the other hand DVD players and recorders are new, sexy, products which people want to buy.
22-11-2004, 02:39 PM
daniel_owen_uk

Ohh and to counter the arguement about dvds not having position memory;

I recorded 2 shows to test the box yesterday, after they had recorded how long do you think it took me to fast forward from one to the other? Thats right I didn't have to fast forward.
22-11-2004, 03:02 PM
Zak33

The DVD film memory on most players has a limit to how many it can remember....and YES I have lots of VHS video's half way through. Only Fools and Horse, Men Behaving Badly being the highest level really. If you watch a few films through too...you soon run out of spaces for these positions.

Seconds, I KNOW VIDEO PLAYERS DIE>...but that doesnt take the tape with it very often....whereas Hard Disks die...and you loose everything on them :(

Now...recordable DVD players....very clever. Ace in fact. Are they compatible with each other? I mean if I record a TV show on my brand new DVD recorder and take it to work and lend it to someone with a DVD player OR recorder that is 18 months old....wil it play? Can I even cue it up for him to watch the 30 minutes he's interested in?

Can I pull the DVD out in a hurry and whack a new DVD in and hit record in 5 seconds flat without scartching either disk...in a hurry? Can I drop it out of the door of my car and not worry about it scratching as it slides down the drive?

VHS and SVHS exist for a reason. POPULARITY.

CD exisits for that reason too....but people still use Turntables.....blimey...Dixons still SELL turntables.

So why on earth drop VCR's?

Publicity...it causes a stir.
22-11-2004, 03:17 PM
Stewart

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zak33

So why on earth drop VCR's?

Publicity...it causes a stir.

Almost, it does begin with P - Progess.
22-11-2004, 03:24 PM
Zak33

progress is a cure for cancer....

progress is NOT the removal of the finest home entertainment medium (bar telly itself) the world has ever seen.

I think it even outstrips the humble cassette deck. Why? Cos I dont use cassette's myself for audio at all. Why? Cos CD is perfect. But DVD is not. Not for home recording AND sharing between friends.

Simple question: Can you record on every Dixon's purchased DVD player, a program from tonight, and take it to work tomorrow and let every person at your work watch it at home, with no compatibility issues?
22-11-2004, 03:29 PM
Zak33

ok....here ya go:

I buy this today http://www.dixons.co.uk/martprd/stor...fm=3&sm=1&tm=1 ...get home...and record Eastenders for someone...or Coronation street....

Right....my mate has this: http://www.dixons.co.uk/martprd/stor...fm=3&sm=1&tm=1 and he takes my DVD+ home and plays it on this DVD- machine? Does it work?

He brings it back and lends it to my other mate who has this: http://www.dixons.co.uk/martprd/stor...fm=3&sm=1&tm=0 ....will it play on that either?

I personally dont actually know:(

But I DO know that from this page http://www.dixons.co.uk/martprd/stor...&show_all=true there are 10 player/recorders which are NOT all compatible with each other :(
22-11-2004, 03:47 PM
Barakka

VHS is a long way from dead yet.

VHS is a mature technology, and DVD/HDD based recorders have a long way to go before they knock VHS down. Yes, the quality is sub-standard, but don't forget when video recorders came out Sony started it all with Betamax which was much higher quality (I know nowhere near DVD) but was beaten by VHS. Why ? Because people voted with their wallets, they didn't care about the slightly higher quality of picture, they cared about cost, ease of use, and compatibility - VHS still wins on all these !

The main use of video recorders is disposable watching, soaps, dramas etc. which are recorded, watched and erased, again VHS still wins.

My gran is in her eighties, has been using a Video recorder for years and years, couldn't be without one, would she be able to setup a DVD recorder? Doubt it, I could set it up for her, but I doubt she could use it... also, she doesn't even own a DVD player, and she's not the only one....

Also, what about the degredation of DVD media, I know VHS tape degrades, but I have tapes well over 10 years old that still play fine, but most of the CD's I recorded with my 1st CD recorder are dead or dying, little over 6 years old.
22-11-2004, 03:49 PM
daniel_owen_uk

But thats like comparing betamax and vhs, they are both video recorders, and no you can't use the arguement that nobody bought betamax cause it isn't true.

Sure some player are incompatible with some media formats but thats life, not all video player do long play.

Yes they can get scratched, but tapes can get chewed up in the recorder (cant take tape with them?).

As for why they still sell turntables, thats a quality issue, one you surely aren't gonna use to support your arguement?

Why drop VCRs because they don't provide the quality or usability of DVDR.

As for sharing I think if you finalize the disk it should be fine to share, although I don't think you are supposed to share recorded tv programs anyway (something to do with copyright laws, not sure though).
22-11-2004, 03:54 PM
Zedmeister

Speaking of wearing away VCRs my Grandparents still have an ancient Mitsubishi VCR from the mid 80's. Works fine and even still has a cable 'remote'!
22-11-2004, 05:21 PM
Zak33

Quote:

Originally Posted by daniel_owen_uk

But thats like comparing betamax and vhs, they are both video recorders, and no you can't use the arguement that nobody bought betamax cause it isn't true.
......
Sure some player are incompatible with some media formats but thats life, not all video player do long play.

The first bit I disagree totally on...Betamax is dead....VHS is not. Period. VHS does not deserve to be pulled from the shelves

The second bit is avery good arguement...I agree...Long Play makes some Video incompatible.
22-11-2004, 05:58 PM
Gunbuster

Mixed feelings about this one. Just becuase they pulled VHS doesn't meen they won't bring it back. No point is using up space on something that doesn't sell, let the other guys sell that. Besides VHS VCRs aren't prestege items, let Tesco and ASDA sell them.

Tapes are still used in camcorders, not discs. I'm suprised MiniDV hasn't replaced VHS in the home. But I guess its hard to upgrade people to another type of tape. Could you write digitally to VHS? would there be any benefit?

The DVD format wars is such a pain, RAM sounds the most sensible of all the formats from a replacing VHS point of view.

just my tupence
22-11-2004, 06:27 PM
Zak33

and a good tuppence it is too:)
22-11-2004, 07:39 PM
Rys

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barakka

My gran is in her eighties, has been using a Video recorder for years and years, couldn't be without one, would she be able to setup a DVD recorder? Doubt it, I could set it up for her, but I doubt she could use it... also, she doesn't even own a DVD player, and she's not the only one....

But why? You're just replacing one type of media with another. You insert it, you choose a channel, you press record.

There's no functional difference in using a DVD recorder, compared to VHS, bar the media. One is round and thin, one is boxy and bulky. Does it confuse people that much?

Baffling.
22-11-2004, 07:53 PM
Knoxville

Your also replacing the interface though, menu's, chapter selection sound and subtitle options. With VHS you bung it in and press play, simple as it gets, with dvd's you put in the disc (the right side up of course as some flippers do the whole "widescreen one side full screen on another thing") then you work your way through the menu's.

As for vhs as a format, i'd say its got 10 years left before it goes the way of betamax.
22-11-2004, 08:02 PM
Zenith

Quote:

Originally Posted by turkster

PVR, hard disk and DVD recording is a young and (IMO) immature technology which is no way close to denting the maturity and simplicity of VHS recording.

My Mum can't really use a pc yet she can record, watch and delete programs on my PVR, so they can't be that complex :p
22-11-2004, 10:19 PM
turkster

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenith

My Mum can't really use a pc yet she can record, watch and delete programs on my PVR, so they can't be that complex :p

Well when they are setup and working they probably do work reasonably easily. But you say its your PVR so I'm betting you set it up with your tv skybox etc and got the whole lot working before your mum ever went near it.
23-11-2004, 10:52 AM
Zedmeister

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunbuster

The DVD format wars is such a pain, RAM sounds the most sensible of all the formats from a replacing VHS point of view.

Aye, if any format deserves the crown of VHS replacement its dvd-ram. Tis the best format - allowing timeslip, a large capacity and no fiddling around with erasing the disc before you can record on it again.

The other formats are crap in a word. DVD+ discs won't generally work on DVD- drives and vice-versa. Its a mess.

If anything, i'll get DVD-ram. Or more likely hang on to my trusty tapes until the whole thing blows over...
23-11-2004, 11:03 AM
Gunbuster

All ways struck me as the right idea, which is DVD as a large floppy disk. Maybe the next time around they will get it right. I doubt it, big businesses seem to so far up their arses these days to do it right anymore.

Panasonic SD and DVD-RAM are about two of the most sensible formats I've seen in a while, maybe I should start buying Panasonic.
23-11-2004, 11:17 AM
Zedmeister

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunbuster

Panasonic SD and DVD-RAM are about two of the most sensible formats I've seen in a while, maybe I should start buying Panasonic.

Well they do make some spanking kit in the main. Love the tellys and I've always had a panasonic VCR.

Hmmm maybe next stop is to get a panasonic DVD-RAM drive in the future...
23-11-2004, 11:43 AM
Gunbuster

Not so impressed by their earphones, they lasted a couple of months a set. The sound was good for the price, but they just fell a part.

Anyways, back to VHS. It still has many major benefits, ease of use, availability of tapes and everyone (mostly) has one. As a pre-recorded medium though its pretty much finished. I can see it hanging on like the floppy drive untill the equivalent of the usb thumb/pen/stick drive comes along.
23-11-2004, 11:59 AM
Zenith

Quote:

Originally Posted by turkster

Well when they are setup and working they probably do work reasonably easily. But you say its your PVR so I'm betting you set it up with your tv skybox etc and got the whole lot working before your mum ever went near it.

You plug it all in and away you go it does everything for you. It was less complex then setting up a vcr. It doesn't record other things only whats on the box with freeview, which is fine for us as in the past god knows how many years we've had cable I think we've recorded off it twice.
http://www.humaxdigital.com/global/p.../pvr-8000t.asp thats the one I've got it was really cheap and is pretty damn good.