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Thread: Help ! I can't take it anymore !

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    Question Help ! I can't take it anymore !

    Ok, maybe overly dramatic title, but the sentiment is correct. And it really is driving me mad.

    Basically here it is. I've always used CRT monitors (for the past 20 years now), yes I know, i'm a dinosaur. It's been my darkest pc secret for yonks. Truth be told I never made the switch to the LCD revolution when I should have. Because, well, I tried them about 3 years ago, and just couldn't get over how pixelated they made everything look, plus the colour clarity on CRT's was way better.

    Unfortunately now my trusty old iiyama vision master pro 413 is starting to die, as it can't switch between resolutions or refresh rates anymore without the screen going black for 3-5 minutes.

    So I decided to snap up myself a shinny new LCD G-Sync monitor and didn't really think about the fact that it's pretty much and entirely different display experience. It's great on the g-sync side of things, plus the extra screen size is nice. But I just can't take the fact that I can see each pixel now. Everything in games looks so aliased and pixelated. Honestly I have really tried to make myself get used to it, really. But I just can't. Also it's giving me terrible eye strain.

    So I need some advice from the hexus wizards, on where I can buy a new CRT monitor, that doesn't involved buying some used on off of amazon or ebay. Because i've been searching the web for the past hour, and I can't find anywhere that still sells them

    Thanks.
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    Re: Help ! I can't take it anymore !

    Perhaps you need to go to a higher density display, 1440p or 4K but without going to a larger panel so the dots are smaller?

    In fact, I wonder if driving a 1440 display at 1080 will give you something like a CRT look from the display having to scale the image up and smooth it off.

    I would be surprised if anyone still made CRTs tbh. It took me a couple of weeks to get used to an LCD after my Iiyama CRT died, but I did get used to it eventually.

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    Re: Help ! I can't take it anymore !

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    Perhaps you need to go to a higher density display, 1440p or 4K but without going to a larger panel so the dots are smaller?

    In fact, I wonder if driving a 1440 display at 1080 will give you something like a CRT look from the display having to scale the image up and smooth it off.

    I would be surprised if anyone still made CRTs tbh. It took me a couple of weeks to get used to an LCD after my Iiyama CRT died, but I did get used to it eventually.
    I'm not sure. I fired up the CRT again to compared it against the LCD, before it dies completely. And I ran FC4 at 1080p on the LCD and 1280x1024 on the CRT. And I couldn't not believe my eyes. There was very little aliasing/pixelation on the CRT and quite alot on the LCD. And the results were the same on different resolutions.

    This seemed weird so i've just been doing some cursory research, and it seems that because of the way a CRT image is displayed each pixel isn't really a pixel, it's more like a dot of light, and each dot isn't completely offset from it's neighborer, they actually over lap a bit, and that combined with the colour grandniece between each dot, acts as a kind of anti-aliasing. Kind of smoothing each dot together. I don't fully get it, but as far as I understand that's the jist of it.

    All this time, I never even knew, but CRT's actually have a kind of built in inherent anti-aliasing. And it's really very effective especially when combined with application (game itself) or driver driven post effect AA.

    And that answers the mystery of how i've always been able to play games on much lower resolutions than is recommended. Like 1280x1024 has been my standard for ages.

    The aspect of pixel density did occur to me too. I've already been using a downsampling technique to get my new monitor to display double it's max rez. And that helps minimize aliasing in some games, but it doesn't remove the pixelation look. Also running at double the monitor rez is not feasible for all games, as it's way too taxing on the gpu's, and doesn't work in all games.

    Man, what I would give to just get a new vision master pro right now
    Last edited by Dave_07; 11-03-2015 at 09:33 AM.
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    Re: Help ! I can't take it anymore !

    Yes I quite agree - CRT image quality is so nice. I'm afraid pixel density and a good colour method like IPS is the only way to compensate. Oversampling to remove aliasing only helps if you're not too close to the monitor, so that leads to another suggestion - move the LCD monitor further away - should be possible now that you don't have an electron gun to hide

    OLED tech should bring us back to CRT like images at some point, but we're not quite there yet.

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    Re: Help ! I can't take it anymore !

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    Yes I quite agree - CRT image quality is so nice. I'm afraid pixel density and a good colour method like IPS is the only way to compensate. Oversampling to remove aliasing only helps if you're not too close to the monitor, so that leads to another suggestion - move the LCD monitor further away - should be possible now that you don't have an electron gun to hide

    OLED tech should bring us back to CRT like images at some point, but we're not quite there yet.
    Hum, so would you recommend an IPS with a low screen size like 20"-21"
    and a high native rez of around 2k ?

    Edit/ But I love that electron gun, she's been my baby for so long
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    Re: Help ! I can't take it anymore !

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_07 View Post
    Hum, so would you recommend an IPS with a low screen size like 20"-21"
    and a high native rez of around 2k ?
    Unlikely such a combination exists, but try for a 23-24" 1440p IPS.

    You will have to live with low refresh rate and trailing images for a little while, but again the tech is catching up and your eyes will adjust.

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    Re: Help ! I can't take it anymore !

    Yes CRT monitors are quite analogue in how they work. ISTR the one I had was rated at 1600x1200 but at too low a refresh rate to be comfortable so I ran it at 1280x1024. I see the one you have is rated as 1800 x 1440 from a quick google of the model number.

    Modern LCD panels are actually not that bad at scaling up from a lower resolution, and will try an do in software what your CRT is doing with the properties of the phosphor for displaying the image, but fundamentally if you went from a 1440p CRT to a 1080p LCD then you have lost underlying hardware dpi capability, and if you increased the size of screen area then you lose dot density again.

    Here's a thought, I wonder if Iiyama could repair/refurb your existing monitor? Probably worth asking them.

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    Re: Help ! I can't take it anymore !

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    Yes CRT monitors are quite analogue in how they work. ISTR the one I had was rated at 1600x1200 but at too low a refresh rate to be comfortable so I ran it at 1280x1024. I see the one you have is rated as 1800 x 1440 from a quick google of the model number.

    Modern LCD panels are actually not that bad at scaling up from a lower resolution, and will try an do in software what your CRT is doing with the properties of the phosphor for displaying the image, but fundamentally if you went from a 1440p CRT to a 1080p LCD then you have lost underlying hardware dpi capability, and if you increased the size of screen area then you lose dot density again.

    Here's a thought, I wonder if Iiyama could repair/refurb your existing monitor? Probably worth asking them.
    Yeah now that I think about it, there is a discrepancy of density between the two monitors. Darn, I should have realized that before getting the new monitor

    The repair refurb idea is interesting tho. Although, if monitors are anything like TV's, then it probably would be cheaper to just get a new one, if I could find one. Tho I may well see if I can get a quote from a monitor/tv repair shop.

    How do you guys find your monitors ? I notice they both have ms response time above 2 ?
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    Re: Help ! I can't take it anymore !

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_07 View Post
    How do you guys find your monitors ? I notice they both have ms response time above 2 ?
    Obviously vastly different from the CRT I used to run. Response time is noticeable if I'm playing something with a large amount of movement, for eg a shooter. But actually I don't tend to play shooters very much - instead I prefer strategy, RPG etc. for which larger flat panel displays are that much nicer and response time less critical. Also I use my computer for photo editing work about as much as I do gaming, and having a calibrated monitor with decent colour accuracy and no curve is a real boon - the sharpness of clear pixel definition is actually an advantage here as well.

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    Re: Help ! I can't take it anymore !

    Another vote for a 24inch 1440p IPS screen if you can find one.

    I personally love the Dell Ultrasharps, not sure if they do a 24inch 1440p but they do a 25inch one. I remember when I went from my beloved 19inch Sony Triniton to my 1st LCD, it was horrible and I had no hope until I got my 1st 24inch 1920x1200 UltraSharp about 10 years ago (cost me a massive £700 at the time as well!) and I was in love again

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    Re: Help ! I can't take it anymore !

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_07 View Post
    How do you guys find your monitors ? I notice they both have ms response time above 2 ?
    Mine is old and cheapish TFT panel, it was fairly quick in its day though which was more interesting to me than the iffy colour accuracy which is acceptable but even after calibration is far from perfect. I got it because I wanted the extra pixels of what I believe is a "quad DVD resolution" panel for programming because it was way cheaper than a 1920x1200 panel which was the best you could get at the time at sane prices.

    These days I would probably go for a 1440p IPS panel, though my eyes aren't as good as they were so 27" would work well for me

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    Re: Help ! I can't take it anymore !

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooms View Post
    Another vote for a 24inch 1440p IPS screen if you can find one.

    I personally love the Dell Ultrasharps, not sure if they do a 24inch 1440p but they do a 25inch one. I remember when I went from my beloved 19inch Sony Triniton to my 1st LCD, it was horrible and I had no hope until I got my 1st 24inch 1920x1200 UltraSharp about 10 years ago (cost me a massive £700 at the time as well!) and I was in love again
    Yes looks like I was optimistic with thought of a 24" 1440p. That dell looks like a good bet though:
    http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/dell_u2515h.htm

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    Re: Help ! I can't take it anymore !

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    Yes looks like I was optimistic with thought of a 24" 1440p. That dell looks like a good bet though:
    http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/dell_u2515h.htm
    That's the one. It retails around the £250 mark but it's been on HUKD's for £220-240 a few times in the last month.

    I believe Dell still offer 5 years next day collect/replace on their panels as well. It used to be bright pixel replacement only but think they has been extended to dead.

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    Re: Help ! I can't take it anymore !

    Humm yeh, I'm finding it hard to find any 1440p with higher refresh rate than 60Hz and around 2-4ms. 60Hz just introduces too much lag for me, it was that way even on CRT's
    Last edited by Dave_07; 11-03-2015 at 11:58 AM.
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    Re: Help ! I can't take it anymore !

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_07 View Post
    Humm yeh, I'm finding it hard to find any 1440p with higher refresh rate than 60Hz and around 2-4ms. 60Hz just introduces too much lag for me.
    IPS and 120Hz+ don't generally happen. You either have TN panel @ 120/140Hz or IPS panel @ 60Hz. Colour/Quality vs Refresh

    I've never had an issue with a good IPS @ 60Hz, the cheap ones have some problems.

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    Re: Help ! I can't take it anymore !

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_07 View Post
    Humm yeh, I'm finding it hard to find any 1440p with higher refresh rate than 60Hz and around 2-4ms. 60Hz just introduces too much lag for me, it was that way even on CRT's
    They're coming (or at least, IPS derivatives see: Asus MG279Q). But LCD 60hz can't be compared to CRT performance - 60hz on CRT would be visibly flickering for me, 60hz on LCD is unnoticeable in general, but you can see mouse trails for eg.

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