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Thread: Question to RPG addicts

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    o|-< acrobat's Avatar
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    Post Question to RPG addicts

    To those of you who have played all kinds of RPG's and MMORPG's, I'm just wondering what kind of combat you prefer? I am mainly talking about spell combat, but you can tell me about melee if you prefer. And what kind of style do you prefer? I won't poll, but here are some examples:

    1) EverQuest style: First person, but you can scroll out to third person. The magic and melee combat involves targetting an enemy, and then you select from a massive range of spells (or abilities). You click an icon... and it starts powering up, and then unleashes at the target.
    2) Diablo / The witcher style: You click click click to batter the mob, with just several bits of effective but simple magic.
    3) NWN2: Massive selection of magic, top down view.
    4) Oblivion: First/third person, not a huge amount of magic, but a fair bit of choice, and you just target your cursor and fire the spell.


    Heres what I think..

    None of them have nailed it yet. I like the way it works in EverQuest, because it felt like my character was actually powering up a spell, and then firing it. Unlike the likes of NWN, where you just click the icon and it just kind of appears a moment later. I also liked how you HAD to mix spells in EQ. You couldn't just do the boring spamming of spells that you do in many other games (firebite! firebite! firebite! and one more firebite! to finish the enemy off). In EQ, you would have to do little routines. As an Enchanter, you would stun an entire room full of mobs, followed by slow, followed by cripple, followed by some damage over time spells, and then finish it off with nukes.

    To me, that is the best, but it is closely followed by Baldurs gate and Neverwinter games, where, thanks to the massive selection of D&D spells, you can do pretty much anything you want. There are loads of "debuffs" to weaken the enemies, and yet loads of offensive spells like fireball and ice storm etc,. There are the cloud type spells. And there are the utility type offensive spells, like the grasping roots which hold all the enemies in place. So you could use the grasping roots which grabs hold of a room full of enemies, and then you smack them down with a big fireball. But the creatures died too fast. I preferred the longer fights of EQ.

    So to me, a perfect game would be EQ style, but with an even wider selection (like NWN/BG/D&D spells), and also, with the ability to target an area of ground, and fire an area affect spell at it. A fireball, or call down an ice storm or whatever. You can then lead enemies into it, or if you screw up, you end up not doing much damage at all. So you target enemies as usual, but there are some spells that you can target onto the ground. And lastly, for good measure... I would have a few spells that you aim, Oblivion style. Bolts of lightning or flaming arrows etc... Ideally, the enemies would be dodging around, so you have to use a bit of skill and coordination to land those spells. The advantage being that they do more damage than the usual targetted spells.

    I've been playing RPG's since the olden days of Eye of the Beholder and stuff, and although there have been a billion RPG's, I still haven't seen any that have really made it how I would like it. And no matter how pretty games get (like Oblivion), I just can't stand it when they make a magic system that just involves firing the same generic flamey arrow type spell over and over.

    Anyway, I'd love to know what you all think, if you can be bothered Maybe most people aren't interested in this stuff, but I always preferred this magic combat in games, much more than just running around and shooting rockets or machine guns. I do still like FPS's, just not as much. And there isn't a whole lot of thought you can put into aiming an AK47 at someones face and pressing left mouse.
    Last edited by acrobat; 02-12-2007 at 06:58 AM.

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    Senior Member roorooroo's Avatar
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    Re: Question to RPG addicts

    I quite like NWN's combat...i like to be able to choose between pausing, and strategically using my spells or just clicking away on the hotkeys if i feel confident about the fight ahead

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    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: Question to RPG addicts

    The Witcher has the best RPG combat I've ever seen.

    It's active clicking rather than just selecting a target, but it's not button mashing because it's the timing of the click that's important. It's really hard to describe, but it works so so well.

    Even spells are spot on - ok there's not a huge choice, but the way you use them is very varied - you can either use the instant version (which gains additional effects depending on skill choices and your active combat style) or hold down the button for a different more powerful effect.

    Before the Witcher I thought Oblivion had a pretty good system - it was quite simplistic, but the ease of use and different power ups for melee was nice. The actual spell casing was just one click, but the huge range of spells (limitless, as you can create your own) was nice.

    One thing that I find quite important for a fast paced game is the ability to use spells during melee combat - both the above have this sorted and it's great for using utility spells to aid combat.

    D&D has always been about the magic, and while the range of spells is great it's the absolute divide between spells and melee that I don't like. Sure, you can stop casting spells and go hit something, or stop hitting something and (hopefully) cast spells, but the round system makes it inherently either/or, and the way classes work it's also better to specialise in one or the other. At higher levels the spells look great, but it gets a bit tedious when you end up queuing spell commands 10 rounds in advance
    Last edited by kalniel; 02-12-2007 at 11:12 AM.

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    S1L3NT danroyle's Avatar
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    Re: Question to RPG addicts

    i like rpgs with a more hands on style of combat like jade empire melee attacking with optional magic use.

    although favourite type of rpg is final fantasy which is turn based commands


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    Re: Question to RPG addicts

    I mainly play RPG's more than anything else. I usually go for a build that is definately melee orientated.

    Guild Wars I have a warrior that can cripple the enemies and also strike for more damage if they are hexed. Here is where team play is important to maximize the tanks damage.

    Oblivion I used the dark elf as they are impervious to fire making them ideal for melee combat against magic users.

    Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2 I love playing as a dwarf. Fast, sturdy and can take deal as much damage as they can take.

    When it comes to magic with the characters I go for I usually try and get spells and abilities that will life drain or weaken groups so I can take out smaller enemies quickly before I take on the big one of the group. The only thing that puts me off magic users in these games is that they can be really hard to keep alive at early stages of the game, I have found this on most RPG's. Once you start levelling up and spells become more potent it becomes more enjoyable due to not dying as much.

    My play style is that of a tank though on all the games I play now. Decent armour that gets upgraded often, as do the weapons for as much damage as possible. General attitude is drop them before they drop you! Plenty of health potions in the quick slots to keep you alive if you are taking out big groups. Get killed and no need to rethink strategies, straight back in to finish the job. In some cases it does require a quick weapon change if you keep getting killed by a particular enemy (Titan Quest instantly springs to mind here in the mountains).

    All in all it comes down to individual players preference and character builds. On Guild Wars I have seen warriors with their secondary as necromancers or mesmers to leech life and weaken enemies. Other players that like the magic users sit at the back in a battle casting meteor storms and lava wells so that by the time the warriors get into the battle front lines the enemies are weak enough for quick kills.

    So far this year there havn't been a massive amount of RPG's released. Personally feel that The Witcher has by far been the best out of the bunch. Silverfall was excellent but not much replay value once you finish it, same goes for Shivering Isles (Oblivion expansion). Hopefully The Witcher will be a sign of things to come on the RPG front over the coming years. Where consequences of actions you have taken really do affect everything around you.

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    o|-< acrobat's Avatar
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    Re: Question to RPG addicts

    nice infos everyone =)

    Quote Originally Posted by danroyle View Post
    i like rpgs with a more hands on style of combat like jade empire melee attacking with optional magic use.
    I really liked that game.

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    Senior Member Ciber's Avatar
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    Re: Question to RPG addicts

    I liked oblivion style best of what I've played, although I've not played the witcher yet.

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    Pseudo-Mad Scientist Whiternoise's Avatar
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    Re: Question to RPG addicts

    Personally, i loved the action in Diablo II and the freedom of Oblivion (or more particularly Morrowind).

    Diablo had an awesome combat system that was very balanced, coupled with the attacks, the havoc you can wreak with a powerful area attack, the range of items (the affix system was one of a kind in my opinion), etc. There was also the great multiplayer, i mean i never played it at all on single - the fun was meeting up with your mates, doing an act, levelling up, or doing a run of some sort. All for free. Which is why i still love to play it! Much better than WoW in my opinion, even PvP was amazingly good fun!

    Morrowind/Oblivion are sort of the opposite in a strange way, they're a lot slower, a lot more refined (where as diablo always seemed a lot more hasty clicking to me). The combat was good in the sense that it was completely custom, you could create your own spells, you could infuse your items with whatever power you liked. If you cared enough, you could pop into the editor and make a scripted effect on your sword that did god knows what to the poor sod you chose to hit - more obvious in Oblivion with the Hilarity mod (polymorphism for the win!). Unlike Diablo where you just say, well i'll be a warrior, get me a big sword and go and hit people - the bethsoft games to me were more about tactics. Do you go thief, learn how to become invisible and then spell them from behind? Do you go battlemage and go in sword and fist blazing (literally)? or do you just go warrior and hack the guy to death? I agree as you say that it's a bit limited in type, but i don't really think you need any more. I mean, you've got the basic fire, lightning, etc as well as healing and summoning, etc. But, as said before, if you wanted to have more spells that were customised and had more tweaks and useful effects, then you could just download a mod that did it or script it yourself (not too hard).
    Last edited by Whiternoise; 02-12-2007 at 10:37 PM.

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    Re: Question to RPG addicts

    I really like action based too sometimes. Although, if I want that, I would rather it be done like Dark Messiah Might & Magic. Where you run around like a first person shooter, and you fire fireballs which explode on the ground and blast the enemies into the air. Some of them just get smashed into a wall, some of them get blown off the edge of a cliff, and some of them land in a fire. It is pure Mwahahaha!!!

    But I also like the strategy of some magic systems in other games, and it can be really intense, and I don't really know any other types of games that can do that. FPS's can be tense in other ways, but really, once you have mastered the art of circle strafing, and you develop a pretty good aim, you are kind of unstoppable in most FPS's.

    But anyway, sometimes I just crave more complexity and that is why I was annoyed with Oblivion. They added the manual blocking and stuff, which made meleeing a bit more interesting than in Morrowind, but they didn't really improve the magic system.

    I always found that it was a bit simple in that you could just run around shooting fire at stuff to kill it, (like circle strafing in a FPS), and then if you made your own spells, it made the game far too easy. I made a spell that used all my mana (err Magicka?), but it would kill ANY enemy with one blast. So when normal stuff attacked me, I would just use normal spells, and then when I came across a big boss, I would just nuke it once with my big spell and it was dead. A moment later, I had rested back to full again.

    So I ended up having to make my own artificial rules, or I had to download mods to make the game harder. I also disliked how the spells like "Paralyze" just completely paralysed an enemy, and I could then just smack it around like it was already dead. In other games, usually you get a stun which lasts a few seconds, or a grasping roots spell which stops it from moving but it can still attack you. Completely paralysing something seems a bit over kill to me. Although even without the over kill aspect, it was still just a bit too simple. Fire and lightning and summoning is ok, but it is much better if you have weaken, magic resistance debuffs, snares, fears, roots, and all kinds of other stuff - and then importantly, they all need to be used together to win a fight.

    Another issue I have with games like NWN, is that you can pause them. In the NWN and Baldurs Gate games, I really liked being able to pause at first, because I could plan ahead and queue up some amazing attacks.. But then I just press space, sit back, and watch it all erupt. I like the strategy, but it kills the sense of urgency and the excitement when you can do it all at your own leisure. Obviously some people prefer that when you just want to follow the storyline and don't want to be on the edge of your seat every 2 minutes. But sometimes I do want to be on the edge of my seat every 2 minutes =)

    Looking back on EverQuest (and games like that), I think they are in a league of their own in a way, because not only can you not pause... but you can't even save the game. So the tension is very real. If you don't pay attention and fight well, you end up dead, and that requires a horrible corpse run or something - which I hate. But playing the likes of NWN, if I die, it is meaningless because I hit quickload and I'm back to where I was 1 minute earlier. NWN would be too hard without pause, but when you slow the pace down a bit, I think it works. I think EQ was slower paced, and therefore it didn't need pause. You had enough time to think about what you where doing, but you still had to think fast, and act fast, and even then, you sometimes made mistakes which would result in your death. I liked that, because it felt like you where really mastering something. After playing it for a month or so, I learned so much - because I was forced to. I find that so much more involving.

    Another issue I have with the NWN games, is the the boss fights are the only decent fights, and many of the others are too spammy. I get attacked by a horde of very angry skeletons for example, but I just hit pause... then queue up a fireball, an ice storm, a meteor storm etc.. and hit unpause, and a few seconds later, everything in the entire room is smouldering pile of ash on the floor. It helps to raise the difficulty so I have to place the nukes better or it hurts myself, but still, it is just missing something.

    The icing on the cake though, is when I used to think about the routines. I mentioned the Enchanter, and that was probably the best class as far as I could tell. If you where alone, you had one routine, and if you where in a group, and a bunch of enemies attacked you... it is like the opposite of NWN or Hellgate. You don't just unload your spells, because there are massive consequences to that (like over aggravating things for one....). You click your area stun spell to give you a moment to breath, then you lower the resistances of everything, then you mesmerise the entire room, and any that managed to resist, you get with a single target mesmerise. And then your group mates start attacking one of the enemies, and you help them by slowing it down and crippling its strength etc. When I compare that to games that involve little more than just stringing together a bunch of fireballs or something, I think it is a different league. And what amazes me, is that EQ is 10 years old, AND it's an MMORPG, so there are many things they can't do which they could do if it was translated to a single player game. And this is all not even mentioning the group aspects. Like when a puny spell caster class uses a spell that was too big... and the enemy turns on them and starts ripping them to shreds.. If you are watching what is going on, you can quickly cast "root" and the spell caster can then just run out of the way and the enemy won't be able to chase them. So although there where routines, there was still a fair bit of spur-of-the-moment decision making, which could often mean the difference between winning or everyone dying horribly

    My only issue with EQ, is that in the first dozen or so levels, you are learning these "routines". And then you start getting good at them, and then you start mastering them. By the time you are about level 30 odd, you are pretty much a grand master of the routines, and you can do it in your sleep, and then it just starts getting too repetitive and boring. If the routines changed through the game, I would have loved it forever, but they didn't. Still today though, after playing nearly every RPG, those MMORPGs take the cake, for me atleast.

    So my ideal combat system would be something like that, but with extra bits that would be possible in a single player game.
    Last edited by acrobat; 03-12-2007 at 12:23 AM.

  10. #10
    Environ'mentalist Zadock's Avatar
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    Re: Question to RPG addicts

    My preference depends entirely on time/ mood... I like the strategy element to NWN/ KOTOR and those kinds of game are more thought provoking and deep perfect if you have a whole afternoon free to play. But if I just want a mindless "kill things, seal their possessions, level-up, kill things a bit more tough steal there possessions etc etc" its gotta be titan quest! (or diablo) also titan quest and diablo have a simple multiplayer and aren't difficult to master. I think the witcher is the happy medium between the strategy NWN style play and the action RPG play of something like diablo....

    P.S read the witcher books they are great... but we have to wait until next september before the proper novels are translated from Polish to English.

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    o|-< acrobat's Avatar
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    Re: Question to RPG addicts

    Thanks Zadock. And yeah, I have heard those Witcher books are really good. I might get some in the new year.

    I'm playing the NWN 2 expansion at the moment. (Mask of the Betrayor). It seems really fantastic. I have a bit of an issue keeping up with the story though... There is so much to read, I get a bit tired of reading and not doing stuff sometimes. And there are so many characters with different names in the story, they are telling me about such-and-such doing something evil, and I keep thinking, "Who was he again???". It's made worse by me playing stuff for a week, and then not playing it for a few weeks and forgetting bits. Apart from that though, I love it.

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    Re: Question to RPG addicts

    Ive always liked the turn based system used in final fantasy (with ff7 being the best RPG game of all time imo! )

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    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: Question to RPG addicts

    Quote Originally Posted by acrobat View Post
    I'm playing the NWN 2 expansion at the moment. (Mask of the Betrayor). It seems really fantastic. I have a bit of an issue keeping up with the story though... There is so much to read, I get a bit tired of reading and not doing stuff sometimes. And there are so many characters with different names in the story, they are telling me about such-and-such doing something evil, and I keep thinking, "Who was he again???". It's made worse by me playing stuff for a week, and then not playing it for a few weeks and forgetting bits. Apart from that though, I love it.
    The start's a bit broad, but it narrows down very nicely towards the end. As long as you stop thinking how it's just like someone has merged the stories from Torment and BG2:ToB into the same package then it's really quite good. (That's no bad thing in itself, but I'd have prefered a bit more originality )

    Combat wise it gets a bit dull - there's not a lot for higher level casters to do, and as everyone's epic then basically everyone has all the spells. It's not like BG2:ToB where high level spell casting became a really good battle between spell defenses and trying to breach those defenses.

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    Re: Question to RPG addicts

    Quote Originally Posted by p4ul View Post
    Ive always liked the turn based system used in final fantasy (with ff7 being the best RPG game of all time imo! )
    That game was particularly cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    The start's a bit broad, but it narrows down very nicely towards the end. As long as you stop thinking how it's just like someone has merged the stories from Torment and BG2:ToB into the same package then it's really quite good. (That's no bad thing in itself, but I'd have prefered a bit more originality )

    Combat wise it gets a bit dull - there's not a lot for higher level casters to do, and as everyone's epic then basically everyone has all the spells. It's not like BG2:ToB where high level spell casting became a really good battle between spell defenses and trying to breach those defenses.
    Bleh thats what I was hoping would happen. I remember having a hard time with those spell defenses in BG2:ToB and giving my sorcerer loads of magic pierce and dispell type spells. That was fun. That game was great.

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    Re: Question to RPG addicts

    I played NWN1 from 2002 up until last year. The top-down view was great and the UI was fast. PVP was really good fun too, it worked even though it wasn't really designed for it originally.

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    Re: Question to RPG addicts

    Quote Originally Posted by acrobat View Post
    Fire and lightning and summoning is ok, but it is much better if you have weaken, magic resistance debuffs, snares, fears, roots, and all kinds of other stuff - and then importantly, they all need to be used together to win a fight.
    Oblivion does have resistance defuffs, drains etc... it's just that most of the time they are not really needed, or just completely useless. One thing I think they should have kept from MW is the chance to fail in casting a spell.

    Haven't played too many other RPG's in recent years but I did like the combos you could pull off in Baldurs Gate and such like.

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