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Thread: RPGs and high fantasy

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    Senior Member Virtual Monkey's Avatar
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    RPGs and high fantasy

    Is it only me, or is anyone else getting bored with western RPGs? There's an outcry when anyone makes a shooter set during WW2, yet I can only think of a few computer RPGs that are not set in the same Medieval-England-Lord-Of-The-Rings style universe. Sure the lore and art direction might be different, but The Witcher, Dragon Age, Fable, Oblivion -they all seem to be very unoriginal in terms of story and setting, which I find strange in a genre where these elements are so significant.

    Fallout, Mass Efect, the KOTOR games and most Japanese RPGS take place in actual fantasy worlds. Surely they're popular enough to warrant a step away from Elves, Goblins and European architecture?

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    Re: RPGs and high fantasy

    At least the well trodden theme has familiarity.

    I've played a few FRPG's that tried to bring in unique races. But normally limited to a cross between a human and some random mammal/bird that didn't generate the same attachment as classical Tolkien races. Plus the elves are shexy

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    Re: RPGs and high fantasy

    Western RPGs? Which ones? Not ALL of them are set in the same style universe, but a large percentage of them are.

    I think it probably comes from the society that we had in the western world - a medieval, knights hacking away at each other society. I'm sure that if we were all peace-loving maniacs in the 14th century, the entire issue would be avoided.

    However, that's besides the point. I do agree that a very large majority of them are set in a "medieval-setting" or a "Tolkein universe" but I also think that Tolkein wasn't the original universe. Look before Tolkein... fairy tales have incorporated all sorts of creatures. Legends and Myths give birth to more. Tolkein didn't create the universe, he USED it.

    Of course, he expanded on it, made it famous, and now brought in the idea that he created it. Bringing together fragments to create something does that. It's irrelevant though, Tolkein only used the universe and expanded on it, rather than creating it from scratch.

    It's all irrelevant to the main point of the post.

    FRPGs have been stuck in this rut since the first games I feel. It's a comfortable rut, and one that - as you said - expands in all sorts of different directions. In fact, I would go as far as to say that unless it is set inside this sort of universe it isn't going to be lumping with the rest of the 'high fantasy RPG/FRPG' games.

    Stepping out the rut will only create a new one, until we fall back into other things.

    Like Bane said, the few games where people have tried to bring in unique races, it's been a cross between other fantasy races, or between random animals and/or humans. Prehaps what it needs is a new author to start up an entire different style of fantasy.

    Maybe we could yell at Paolini or someone until he changes his mind about having Orcs (Urgals), Drgaons (albeit limited) and so on.

    As for the witcher being the same as other FRPG... I suggest you read the book. It's entirely different to other books of the same genre. I couldn't comment on the game though. I've still not found the piece of plastic that is somewhere in my bedroom....

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    Welcome to stampytown! Salazaar's Avatar
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    Re: RPGs and high fantasy

    As above it's mostly down to cultural legacy...

    Europeans tend towards 'traditional' medieval fantasy of knights and monsters. Eastern cultures tend towards the medieval martial cultures (samurai etc.) of the area, or in Japan's case, towards apocalyptic stories derived from the events at the end of WWII. The USA either takes from their (predominantly) Euro heritage or stories derived from the fairly cut & dry, goodies & baddies gunfighting of the wild west and subsequent gun based conflicts.

    The other point is that you have to be an extremely good story teller to completely remove the story from a familiar setting an still engage the reader/player, you need some element of familiarity/humanity to keep them emotionally involved.
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    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: RPGs and high fantasy

    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual Monkey View Post
    Is it only me, or is anyone else getting bored with western RPGs? There's an outcry when anyone makes a shooter set during WW2, yet I can only think of a few computer RPGs that are not set in the same Medieval-England-Lord-Of-The-Rings style universe. Sure the lore and art direction might be different, but The Witcher, Dragon Age, Fable, Oblivion -they all seem to be very unoriginal in terms of story and setting, which I find strange in a genre where these elements are so significant.

    Fallout, Mass Efect, the KOTOR games and most Japanese RPGS take place in actual fantasy worlds. Surely they're popular enough to warrant a step away from Elves, Goblins and European architecture?
    I'm not sure I agree with your perceptions. Comparing something like The Witcher to Fable seems very strange - the latter is high fantasy, the former very low. But if you mean why does fantasy get set in Tolkein inspired themes (ie swords and magic) then again I'd disagree - you already have the proof yourself when you mention the fallout games, Mass effect, Star wars.. and I can add others such as Arcanum, Space siege, Wizardry, Vampire the masquerade, System Shock, and a whole bunch of cRPGs who's names I've forgotten.

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    Re: RPGs and high fantasy

    But if you mean why does fantasy get set in Tolkein inspired themes (ie swords and magic) then again I'd disagree - you already have the proof yourself when you mention the fallout games, Mass effect, Star wars.. and I can add others such as Arcanum, Space siege, Wizardry, Vampire the masquerade, System Shock, and a whole bunch of cRPGs who's names I've forgotten.
    Mass Effect, Star Wars and the like aren't fantasy though they are Sci Fi.

    The thing that puts me off most RPG's is this fantasy crap, wizards and orcs and the whole frozen class/race system (Elves, Humans, Dwarves all having set roles and behaviours). Sci Fi has tended to produce much more interesting worlds, with augmentation, cyborgs and the like actually questioning assumed social roles rather than reifying them.

    I actually despise Tolkein's universe, being as it romanticised picture of rural feudal England under threat from the debasing forces of the industrial revolution (orcs are the debased and brutalised urban proletariat).
    "The less you eat, drink and buy books; the less you go to the theatre, the dance hall, the public house; the less you think, love, theorise, sing, paint, fence, etc., the more you save – the greater becomes your treasure which neither moths nor rust will devour – your capital. The less you are, the less you express your own life, the more you have, the greater is your alienated life, the greater is the store of your estranged being." Karl Marx

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    Re: RPGs and high fantasy

    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual Monkey View Post
    Fallout, Mass Efect, the KOTOR games and most Japanese RPGS take place in actual fantasy worlds. Surely they're popular enough to warrant a step away from Elves, Goblins and European architecture?
    Deus Ex
    City of Heroes
    I could go on.

    And I'm not bored, I enjoy them, and Fable 2 is very good
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    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: RPGs and high fantasy

    Quote Originally Posted by revol68 View Post
    Mass Effect, Star Wars and the like aren't fantasy though they are Sci Fi.
    In what way aren't they fantasy?

    If your definition of fantasy is that it involves magic and swords and a medieval european setting then you shouldn't be surprised if everything you class as fantasy has magic and swords and a medieval european setting

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    Re: RPGs and high fantasy

    I rather liked Morrowind (and the other Elder Scrolls) for it's fantasy style, sure it had elves, dwarves and the rest but it reconfigured them into a much more interesting scenario. An essentially enslaved (the Dumer - Elves) population with their own, unique ledgends and back story living under human rule (who came in various ethnicities), a long dead 'dwarven' race (Dwemner) who's only remains are massive architectual relics.

    All of them had a well though out and intertwined history and architecture that was significantly different from standard European and which varied from area to area in a way which both really suited the mythos and which made each area entirely distictive - the organic buildings of Tel Vos and Tel Mora, the camps in the Dustlands, the giant shells in Ald'ruhn, the block architecture of Caldera and the Cantons of Vivec.
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    Re: RPGs and high fantasy

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    In what way aren't they fantasy?

    If your definition of fantasy is that it involves magic and swords and a medieval european setting then you shouldn't be surprised if everything you class as fantasy has magic and swords and a medieval european setting
    Well it's only fantasy in the same way that any work of sci fi or indeed fiction is fantasy. Mass Effect isn't fantasy in that it doesn't actually take place in an entirely different world of magic and mythical entities, instead it's sci fi in that it is a projection of our world into the future.
    "The less you eat, drink and buy books; the less you go to the theatre, the dance hall, the public house; the less you think, love, theorise, sing, paint, fence, etc., the more you save – the greater becomes your treasure which neither moths nor rust will devour – your capital. The less you are, the less you express your own life, the more you have, the greater is your alienated life, the greater is the store of your estranged being." Karl Marx

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    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: RPGs and high fantasy

    Quote Originally Posted by revol68 View Post
    Well it's only fantasy in the same way that any work of sci fi or indeed fiction is fantasy. Mass Effect isn't fantasy in that it doesn't actually take place in an entirely different world of magic and mythical entities, instead it's sci fi in that it is a projection of our world into the future.
    So Tolkein isn't fantasy by your definition? His work is ultimately the creation of an English mythology telling a history of what occured to our world in the past.

    What about Narnia or Harry Potter?
    Last edited by kalniel; 23-10-2008 at 01:16 PM.

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    Re: RPGs and high fantasy

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    So Tolkein isn't fantasy by your definition? His work is ultimately the creation of an English mythology telling a history of what occured to our world in the past.
    Just because Tolkein's work carries historical and contemporary symobilism and metaphors doesn't change the fact that he is articulating it through a world populated by fantastical beings and processes (dragons, talking, walking trees, magic etc). Whilst Sci FI has 'fantastical' things like teleportation and warp speeds they are generally within a developmental arc from contemporary real world technologies.
    "The less you eat, drink and buy books; the less you go to the theatre, the dance hall, the public house; the less you think, love, theorise, sing, paint, fence, etc., the more you save – the greater becomes your treasure which neither moths nor rust will devour – your capital. The less you are, the less you express your own life, the more you have, the greater is your alienated life, the greater is the store of your estranged being." Karl Marx

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    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: RPGs and high fantasy

    Quote Originally Posted by revol68 View Post
    Just because Tolkein's work carries historical and contemporary symobilism and metaphors doesn't change the fact that he is articulating it through a world populated by fantastical beings and processes (dragons, talking, walking trees, magic etc). Whilst Sci FI has 'fantastical' things like teleportation and warp speeds they are generally within a developmental arc from contemporary real world technologies.
    I don't agree - I think dragons have a closer relationship to reality than teleportation, green men on mars etc. do.

    I wasn't joking about the history part - it's more than just symbolism, it really was created as an alternative past of the Earth, just as Sci-fi is an alternative future.

    How would you class Anne McCaffrey's pern books?

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    Re: RPGs and high fantasy

    Fantasy and Sci-Fi are often tied together... mostly because they bear very much resemblance.

    In fact, quite a lot of places now have "Fantasy" and "Science-Fantasy" instead of "science-fiction"


    And Anne McCaffery's books are fantasy. Where is the science in it? The science was all destroyed if I remember correctly. Which I probably don't. Is a few years since I last took that series out of the local library...

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    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: RPGs and high fantasy

    Quote Originally Posted by mediaboy View Post
    And Anne McCaffery's books are fantasy. Where is the science in it? The science was all destroyed if I remember correctly. Which I probably don't. Is a few years since I last took that series out of the local library...
    It's a sort of earth ark-ship type story set in the future, colonisation of new world but then destruction/loss of existing technologies. Personally I think it's both, edging towards sci-fi if anything and probably shows that there isn't a distinguishing line between the two - speculative fiction for the win

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    Re: RPGs and high fantasy

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    I don't agree - I think dragons have a closer relationship to reality than teleportation does.
    It's not necessarily about a 'closer relationship' to reality but it's relationship to the contemporary real world. Sci Fi justifies it's fantastical elements through temporal difference (in the future) or distance (a galaxy far, far away) whilst Fantasy imagines an entirely different self contained world without such justifications.
    "The less you eat, drink and buy books; the less you go to the theatre, the dance hall, the public house; the less you think, love, theorise, sing, paint, fence, etc., the more you save – the greater becomes your treasure which neither moths nor rust will devour – your capital. The less you are, the less you express your own life, the more you have, the greater is your alienated life, the greater is the store of your estranged being." Karl Marx

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