Dell 3008WFP monitor, a warning for gamers

[Perfectionist]

I'm just going through the hell of trying to repackage a huge 30" Dell 3008WFP monitor in it's mad mess of polystyrene and figure I should warn others about it. I'm sending it back because Dell seemingly don't test monitors after build even for such an expensive one at £1k (in the US I believe it's $2k!), and there's an ugly skyblue line going up the monitor a little from the left side from the bottom up to half-way. There's also a stuck/dead pixel at bright red up in the top of the screen about 1/3 in widthways from the left. But, the reason I'm sending it back rather than getting a replacement of the same is something I thought others should know:

First impressions: Awesome, huge, high resolution. For someone that's mostly used to 17" CRT and cheapo college/work LCDs (usually made by Dell actually) it's got a big "wow" effect - BUT, once you actually get into testing it on games I found two major issues:

1. The most important: It cannot display black properly, I ran my old CRT in comparison and it was actually better for playing Half-Life (very old game yes, but it was the quickest game I had for testing since my new PC isn't ready yet) - which like newer games like HL2/L4Dead, Doom 3, Resident Evil series, FEAR etc uses dark for atmospheric effect combined with stuff like flashlights and sparse electric lighting.

The Dell3008WFP does not like this at all, the backlight is always glaring and it seems to have been designed without gamers in mind at all (thinking of the DVD/bluray media centre crowd I guess) - you need to turn up the gamma a lot to make it playable, whereas on my old CRT it looks fine (though of course it's not TOTALLY black, the situation is a LOT better). It's really, really disappointing. I thought it would be the ultimate thing for atmospheric games like that, but no. If it's not full of colours it looks pretty crap. In the bad way, not the "wow this place is evil". I'm guessing it might be ok in lurid pretty games like Far Cry 2 or something, but I don't just like brainless shooters or I'd be on an Xbox

2. Blurring/ghosting: This is most noticable doing very quick stuff in games and not really noticable outside of games, I think the best example is to just hold down the mouse with the first weapon you get in the game, the crowbar, it looks like it's meant to be a motion-blur effect Matrix-like when in fact it's just the screen reacting fractionally too slowly every second. Again disappointing for such a high-priced screen.

I'm not sure what to move on to from here, thinking about taking the hike up and visiting Scan (I'm in Kent) or trying out PC World (I know, but it's the only place I can think of nearby that'd have lots) and seeing for myself this time before buying - I don't think I will be buying another monitor from the internet in the future, unless I was absolutely and totally sure from several reviews that it was good. The sad thing was according to a few reviews the 3008wfp was supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread!

Any recommendations for what I'm looking for? And anyone know why PC Gamer magazine is recommending the old 3007WFP-HC still instead of the 3008WFP, is it better somehow?

[moogle]

Those Dells change colours slower than the cheaper ones because they are better panel types. If you want better colours you sacrifice the no motion blur for some

The TN panel screens are fine for me when gaming. Not sure about the blackness stuff I don't test that stuff alot

[Perfectionist]

Yeah, the "no black, only washed-out greyish" is what really gets me (the blurring is liveable since things are happening fast anyway it's forgettable rather than being a constant thing, though some really FAST games could be terrible thinking about it ones where there's lots of reacting fast) in dark games it looks like the same effect you get on a bright summers day with a screen reflecting loads. I think it might be an issue with the backlight, and perhaps it's just my one since it's faulty anyway it wouldn't be surprising if it's faulty in other ways too and it's meant to dim itself automatically or something? I don't know much about the inner workings of monitors though so I'm just reduced to guesswork really and just describing what I see.

[moogle]

Ahh I know that sort of black. Can't play those scary dark games with that
Luckily I don't get it on my cheapy screen

[Bugbait]

Based on your expectations and use I can't recommend any S-IPS or even S-PVA panel. For pure gaming response (fast pixel response + low input lag) you're best going for a TN screen. No IPS or PVA can really compete with the current generation of TN panels for (FPS) gaming. It's only when it comes to video, photography and general desktop use that the TN (in my eyes) suffers compared to the other two technologies. In regards to the black issue, I've never seen an LCD at any price range produce a "pure black" like a good CRT. Most do an acceptable job but it's never quite the same.

Shame about the dead pixel and back light. As a 3008 owner I won't claim it's perfect but it's still the best all round monitor I've used. For text and general desktop use it's very nice. Coupled with its decent colour reproduction and very wide viewing angles I have yet to find better in the same price bracket. I haven't noticed any ghosting in C&C3 or WoW but they don't really need the super response times.

[Perfectionist]

Ahh I know that sort of black. Can't play those scary dark games with that
Luckily I don't get it on my cheapy screen

So is this a problem with all LCD screens of this type (IPS - In Plane Switching - according to Dell's site {Ironically this monitor is called "Midnight grey" in ref to the outside, but it's a good description of the state of the screen too, midnight is turned into light grey), though I guess some may have been made with different types as convenient as I read happens often in the industry) or just Dell's/this faulty one? Or all LCDs? From what I've gathered so far there's Twisted Nematic (TN), S-PVA, MVA, S-IPS, H-IPS (Dell doesn't say which of these two it is)... I'm reading around a bit and I did in fact do this before but it seems there's a lot more types than I thought, and not sure if they all have similar problems or what?

edit: Typed this up at the same time as Bugbait, just reading over that post now.

Based on your expectations and use I can't recommend any S-IPS or even S-PVA panel. For pure gaming response (fast pixel response + low input lag) you're best going for a TN screen. No IPS or PVA can really compete with the current generation of TN panels for (FPS) gaming. It's only when it comes to video, photography and general desktop use that the TN (in my eyes) suffers compared to the other two technologies.

Hmm, my problem here with that is I like both, I was intending to use the monitor for art+photography as well as BluRay, general use and gaming like described (I guess you are right, games are the only place where it really falls short). Maybe I need to get a good CRT (I didn't even know there was such a thing, everything is produced and marketed towards LCDs these days??) or TN for that and a good colour range LCD for everything else? Or even just one big CRT I don't know..... I'm a bit at a loss here, it's just not what I was expecting at all.

In regards to the black issue, I've never seen an LCD at any price range produce a "pure black" like a good CRT. Most do an acceptable job but it's never quite the same.

Aww man someone tell me this isn't true? I was looking forward to getting around to "upgrading" to LCD (with a new graphics card to handle things) for ages. :|

Shame about the dead pixel and back light.

Is it the backlight though? Above you said it's all LCDs are like that? I just assumed it was the backlight that was stopping it getting properly dark, I don't know in-depth how they work as I've never had my own LCD before?

[Bugbait]

And anyone know why PC Gamer magazine is recommending the old 3007WFP-HC still instead of the 3008WFP, is it better somehow?

Here would be my guess based on snippets I've read from various reviews in the past:

The 3007 doesn't have a hardware scalar like the 3008: Gamers will generally run at native resolution which makes the scalar a hindrance. Why? It adds input lag since everything is run through an additional processor that adds nothing to the picture quality. This is bad for FPS gamers.

The 3008 at initial release was a lot more expensive: I saw old figures of USD$1100-1200 odd for the 3007 and USD$2000 for the 2008, that's a huge price and thus value difference. It's the same panel so why pay a lot more for the same (or worse for gamers) thing?

[Dreaming]

I know some guys with this monitor and they all seem to rate it highly.

For me Samsung is the way to go though

And for 3007 vs 3008 thing I think it's because the 3008 just has an extra feature that's not always necessary (it might have been inputs / outputs?? i dunno) that makes it cost much more, so it depends if you need that feature. This is just me trying to recall a conversation I was kind of in with the aformentioned friends

[Perfectionist]

Probably DisplayPort, it's hyped up a lot as the alternative to HDMI but I don't really know anything that uses it, the graphics card I'm getting the Sapphire ATI HD4870x2 is only TV-Out/Dual DVI/HDMI as far as I know

But the price isn't the issue for me I was perfectly happy with paying that amount but it was on the assumption that it would be quality to match the price. :/

[Pob255]

S-PVA and MVA are basically the same and have the same strengths and weaknesses
Same goes for S-IPS and H-IPS
There are two types of TN panel as well, although that's really just down to alignment, TN has a larger viewable angle in on direction than the other, on most monitors it's aligned so the larger viewable area is horizontal but sometimes it's rotated through 90degrees so the larger area is vertical.

I may be getting this next point wrong however I seem to remember that larger monitors need stronger back lights which leads to more bleed.
Although I'm very surprised you say it's that bad on this monitor, I'd of expected better resaults from dell's high end screen as they tend to be aimed at professional use not gaming, and bad blacks lead to all sorts of colour correction issues which would be un-exceptable in a professional monitor.

One thing it may be connected to the line issue (RMA that at once), however if you're coming from a CRT then you may have the system Gama up too high to start with.


EDIT: by viewable area I mean viewable angle without major colour or brightness devation

[directhex]

There's a fairly simple reason why an LCD isn't "good" at blacks - the big backlights behind the screen!

[Perfectionist]

S-PVA and MVA are basically the same and have the same strengths and weaknesses
Same goes for S-IPS and H-IPS
There are two types of TN panel as well, although that's really just down to alignment, TN has a larger viewable angle in on direction than the other, on most monitors it's aligned so the larger viewable area is horizontal but sometimes it's rotated through 90degrees so the larger area is vertical.

I may be getting this next point wrong however I seem to remember that larger monitors need stronger back lights which leads to more bleed.
Although I'm very surprised you say it's that bad on this monitor, I'd of expected better resaults from dell's high end screen as they tend to be aimed at professional use not gaming, and bad blacks lead to all sorts of colour correction issues which would be un-exceptable in a professional monitor.

One thing it may be connected to the line issue (RMA that at once), however if you're coming from a CRT then you may have the system Gama up too high to start with.


EDIT: by viewable area I mean viewable angle without major colour or brightness devation

Nah, I experimented a lot with gamma, contrast and brightness, would just be silly not to Didn't really help, in fact it was worse with lower gamma because it just can't seem to display a dark picture enough to make out details like my ancient 17" CRT (included with a crappy PC from Tiny to boot) can in comparison :/ I had the CRT plugged in on the floor next to desk and tried em one after another, it really is sad how the Dell only really seems to beat it in size/resolution.

I already RMA'd it cos of the line & dead pixel yeah (and thanks), in a way it's a relief Dell cocked up the whole design of the monitor apparently aimed at professional designers and gamers as well as seemingly having no actual quality testing before the factory in China shoves these screens into the frame.

[Bugbait]

Hmm, my problem here with that is I like both, I was intending to use the monitor for art+photography as well as BluRay, general use and gaming like described (I guess you are right, games are the only place where it really falls short). Maybe I need to get a good CRT (I didn't even know there was such a thing, everything is produced and marketed towards LCDs these days??) or TN for that and a good colour range LCD for everything else? Or even just one big CRT I don't know..... I'm a bit at a loss here, it's just not what I was expecting at all.

If you're particularly fussy (nothing wrong with that) and have the cash to burn my recommendation would be to get two monitors. One, most likely TN for pure gaming purposes and another PVA or IPS for all the other stuff. In the past IPS panels were meant to the middle ground between PVA and TN, offering excellent colour reproduction while maintaining a decent pixel response time. I'd argue that PVA has caught up a lot so the advantage is much smaller now. Although the current generation TN's have caught up a lot in colour reproduction I don't think they compare to the PVA or IPS. In terms of viewing angles TN isn't even in the same league. Once you're looking at 24"+ viewing angles make a difference. As good as PVA is, I find if you shift in your seat you still experience variations in contrast whereas generally you won't see this with IPS.

Aww man someone tell me this isn't true? I was looking forward to getting around to "upgrading" to LCD (with a new graphics card to handle things) for ages. :|

I'm not saying you can't get close enough that it's no longer a problem, it just depends on how fussy you are . You just might need to physically test a lot of panels first to see what you like.

Is it the backlight though? Above you said it's all LCDs are like that? I just assumed it was the backlight that was stopping it getting properly dark, I don't know in-depth how they work as I've never had my own LCD before?

That's just my guess as backlight bleed (which is what is sounds like to me) was a big problem with the initial and even the A01 versions. For the most part, based only on anecdotal evidence on the Web it was fixed for A02. It was generally understand that the problem lay in the manufacturing or QA process where the gap between the panel and the housing allowed too much movement. this was evidenced by the "blooming" or bleed effect moving around as you applied light pressure to different parts of the panel.

[Fraz]

I've got one of these. I've had no problems with it on any games, even Fallout3 which is often dark. Maybe I'm just less fussy than you? I dunno.

Only issue in my mind is annoying number of button pushes required to turn down the brightness/contrast. It could do with an ambient light sensor and an auto-brightness adjuster.

[Perfectionist]

bugbait: Hmm how are you meant to check if it's the A02 or A01 version? Or do Dell keep that kind of production details hidden from customers?

I've got one of these. I've had no problems with it on any games, even Fallout3 which is often dark. Maybe I'm just less fussy than you? I dunno.

I'm surprised at that, I mean I suppose I could ignore the blue line going up the left side of the screen and the stuck red pixel if it didn't get in the way for whatever but the black thing is really pervasive - it's just impossible to make out things in the dark, it needs to be have quite a bit of light or it's just mostly washed out "midnight grey".

Maybe it's the version of the monitor I got or related to the other faults I don't know. But someone said above my guess about the backlight was right, so I dunno either...

[Bugbait]

bugbait: Hmm how are you meant to check if it's the A02 or A01 version? Or do Dell keep that kind of production details hidden from customers?

Good question, there might be something tacked on the end of the serial number but I won't be able to check that until I get home. I ordered mine from a place that explicitly advertised it as the A02 (PCBuyIt). Having said that, the A02 came out quite a few months ago so unless it's really old stock it should be the current revision.