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Thread: GAMING, the future.

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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    I was at University within the last thirty years and non of this was on my reading list. Books about semiconductor theory, circuit theory and material science, together with a couple of books on mathematics certainly were however.

    I suggest that the future of gaming will be as reliant on the mathematical processes implemented by computer scientists and engineers, without whom there would be no gaming to have a future!
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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    Just no. All reality is subjective, yours is a bit more subjective than most, it seems.
    Before I went to uni, I had no idea about these ideas. So I debated with my tutor(Dr of philosophy), and the younger students who took all this stuff as read. The tutor used to say 'all reality is subjective', and it is, but I believe that for society to work(as a collective of subjective humans) there has to be some consensus. An idea that I found Wittgenstein also proffered.

    I do find the personal jibes made by you and T amusing, along with the cheesy 80's humour exhibited by DanceswithUnix. But really those comments only tell me more about the psychology of the posters and there inability to communicate. I actually think that if gaming does become the foremost cultural form of the 21 century it will be the perfect representation of PM ideas, reality and virtual reality will be indiscernible from one another.

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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    I was at University within the last thirty years and non of this was on my reading list. Books about semiconductor theory, circuit theory and material science, together with a couple of books on mathematics certainly were however.

    I suggest that the future of gaming will be as reliant on the mathematical processes implemented by computer scientists and engineers, without whom there would be no gaming to have a future!
    I originally studied tech, I remember all the subjects you mention. I think the tech and the tech designers create the means, but it's the artists, writers, cinematographers, etc, who create the content. In a way it's the melding of all these disciplines that creates great films or games.

    I think also the way gamers interact with AI is a prelude to how society at large will interact within an AI world. At first the gamers are outraged that an AI system(which only started learning the game two weeks previous) can easily out smart them, but then they realise that humans created AI and a combination of human and artificial intelligence has immense potential, not only in terms of learning from each other, but taking our intellect to a new level. And that's exactly the sort of evolution that humanity needs.

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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    It doesn't take much reading in between the lines to see what sort of person you think you are.

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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    It doesn't take much reading in between the lines to see what sort of person you think you are.
    You're hilarious! The jibes indicate your line of argument fell off a cliff. Go back to discussing the Scan catalogue. Or maybe get better educated. W>are you a gamer? Because despite the title of the thread I haven't seen one positive contribution. Is your only contribution to drive away new members? Because you can be dam sure between your efforts to deny post modernism, T's lack of comprehension and the cheap jibes; few new members or existing members(besides 'senor members' which I'm starting to believe is a euphemism) will feel comfortable about expressing their ideas or even ideas they've read and are quoting. Have you actually got anything positive to add to the thread?
    Last edited by johnroe; 06-05-2018 at 08:44 PM.

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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    I do find the personal jibes made by you and T amusing, along with the cheesy 80's humour exhibited by DanceswithUnix. But really those comments only tell me more about the psychology of the posters and there inability to communicate. I actually think that if gaming does become the foremost cultural form of the 21 century it will be the perfect representation of PM ideas, reality and virtual reality will be indiscernible from one another.
    Always happy to provide cheesy humour, though I was gunning for 90's. I believe that was when the amazing work of "HP Laserjet service manual in interpretive dance" was posted on the Internet

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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    It doesn't take much reading in between the lines to see what sort of person you think you are.
    And you can stop that line of posting right now thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    You're hilarious! The jibes indicate your line of argument fell off a cliff. Go back to discussing the Scan catalogue. Or maybe get better educated. W>are you a gamer? Because despite the title of the thread I haven't seen one positive contribution. Is your only contribution to drive away new members? Because you can be dam sure between your efforts to deny post modernism, T's lack of comprehension and the cheap jibes; few new members or existing members(besides 'senor members' which I'm starting to believe is a euphemism) will feel comfortable about expressing their ideas or even ideas they've read and are quoting. Have you actually got anything positive to add to the thread?
    And there is no need to reply in kind - if you object to a post use the report post button.

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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    Sorry about that(just looked up 'flame wars'), just trying to find a space to express and explore ideas, without being distracted. I never thought I'd find links between; gaming, PM ideas and AI(has anyone played any of those PM themed games on the list?). I wonder if gaming essentially needs re-branding, for it to be taken seriously by the wider public. Although chess is labelled a game and many games are like a virtual representation of chess played out on battlefields. So maybe that's another change that needs to happen in the future. 'Gaming' doesn't really do it justice and if you've ever read the end credits it's obvious how much effort and time has gone into creating these virtual worlds.

    I'm now starting to think that an all encompassing AI, in control of every aspect of the game from inter weaving narratives to matching the player's ability, is like creating an in game god. Transpose that onto the real world. Are humans creating an AI god type being, that will be all knowing (ie: omniscient).

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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    I'm now starting to think that an all encompassing AI, in control of every aspect of the game from inter weaving narratives to matching the player's ability, is like creating an in game god. Transpose that onto the real world. Are humans creating an AI god type being, that will be all knowing (ie: omniscient).
    Maybe one day, but it is still a long way off. We are narrative creatures, hence many of the better games are trying to tell a story, and AI isn't there yet on story telling. If you haven't seen this AI written film yet, please do if only for the laughs and the underlining that we are an aggregate of our experiences, and this AI was trained with too much X-files https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/...angely-moving/

    It took decades for the deep learning breakthrough to happen, and another decade for it to become common technology. I don't expect to see general AI intelligence in my lifetime, speaking as someone with a long history working and playing in AI.

    Edit:

    Games that are not story based can already be done with random map generation and doesn't require any intelligence beyond balancing algorithms.

    I think your all knowing AI is basically summing up the idea of the Singularity. Such an AI if it has an IQ off the human scale could view us like cute puppies. Hopefully it will be clever enough not to be vengeful, and we won't do the equivalent of keep pooing on it's carpet.
    Last edited by DanceswithUnix; 08-05-2018 at 07:37 AM.

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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    That's called stereotyping.
    So?
    There's usually a truth that gives rise to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    Maybe you think everyone who is conversant say with postmodernist ideas is younger.
    No, just the ones with something to seemingly prove, who try and lecture other folks on it, usually. Your ideas are nothing new and while you may well be on a journey of discovery, the gaming and other industries are full of people who already know this stuff, have already tried a lot of it, and are already implementing what does work where it does work... and in parallel, not implementing it where they already know it doesn't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    There's a long list of films that are classed as PM; Memento, Synecdoche New York, Pulp Fiction, etc.
    And yet their entire classification depends on who is classifying them. There are tons of songs classified as one genre or another, yet rarely do the actual performers consider themselves or their work to be of that genre.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    One of the main ideas of PM was the blurring of boundaries between different cultural forms, and that includes forms from different times.
    Then just about everything is PM, really, from the days of Jazz and Blues onward...
    Explains why so much of today is an absolute mess of trite cack that brings nothing more than rehashes, plagiarism, ripoffs and "reboots"!!

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    What I find interesting is that those who aren't conversant with these ideas directly, but still are encountering the effects in contemporary culture, play the ignorant card(I call it my 'hippos in a water hole theory' of forums).
    You assume people actually care.
    Once again, despite all these artistes and auteurs and whatever other fancy terms you wanna slap on them, doing all these deep and meaningful works that are social commentaries on the dichotomy of pre-plu-perfect-post-semi-demi-triple-mocha-grande-latte-cultural influence..... What actually sells is T&A.
    If people have to go on a university course in Post-Modern Cultural Influences, just to understand and appreciate a game or avoid the 'ignorant' label, you won't ever sell anything. You'll find a myriad of military and historically based films and TV series that omit factual accuracy in favour of what looks good or works best on screen - Same for most other media: They go with what works.

    Truth is, you can write a good story without knowing any of what you speak. The trick is to make it original but still sufficiently engaging for the 'safe bet' pursestring holders to fund it. That, more than any level of tech or AI, is what it comes down to - Engaging the board of suits who only want to hear how much money you're making them.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    I enjoy testing ideas out, playing with cultural forms. If someone makes a valid point I'll be the first to accept it.
    How many of these Post-Modern type films have made it to the Highest Grossing list or the Top Ten lists in any of teh mainstream categories?
    How is it people can come up with successful films like Flashdance and Footloose, despite neither them nor the audience knowing anything about all this PM stuff you're bringing up?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    Before I went to uni, I had no idea about these ideas.
    Neither do most people, so attempting to ascertain and govern the future of gaming (film, music, art or indeed anything) through the application and use of it is quite a waste, don't you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    I do find the personal jibes made by you and T amusing, along with the cheesy 80's humour exhibited by DanceswithUnix. But really those comments only tell me more about the psychology of the posters and there inability to communicate.
    Perhaps if you'd actually listened to what we'd said, we'd be more accomodating in response.
    You're new to gaming. Plenty of other people aren't - Many have made long careers and much money coming up with things you're only just starting to dream about. They know what sells, what works and what their technological limitations are - Much of the fundamentals behind this have not changed since the invention of the quill.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    I actually think that if gaming does become the foremost cultural form of the 21 century it will be the perfect representation of PM ideas, reality and virtual reality will be indiscernible from one another.
    What, like in Mazes & Monsters?
    Not an idea you're selling, so far.....

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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    Maybe one day, but it is still a long way off. We are narrative creatures, hence many of the better games are trying to tell a story, and AI isn't there yet on story telling. If you haven't seen this AI written film yet, please do if only for the laughs and the underlining that we are an aggregate of our experiences, and this AI was trained with too much X-files https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/...angely-moving/

    It took decades for the deep learning breakthrough to happen, and another decade for it to become common technology. I don't expect to see general AI intelligence in my lifetime, speaking as someone with a long history working and playing in AI.

    Edit:

    Games that are not story based can already be done with random map generation and doesn't require any intelligence beyond balancing algorithms.

    I think your all knowing AI is basically summing up the idea of the Singularity. Such an AI if it has an IQ off the human scale could view us like cute puppies. Hopefully it will be clever enough not to be vengeful, and we won't do the equivalent of keep pooing on it's carpet.
    Thanks I'll check out that film. From what I've read I think the AI in games is seen by those in the business as the big break through. I'm sure they must have large amounts of money to invest in R&D, and an enthusiastic work force. I think what they are aiming for is a development of what is at a basic level at the moment. But it won't be long until each decision the player makes has consequences in terms of where the narrative goes. I only got into GTA V recently(too much hype put me off), but it's use of interweaving narrative is clever.

    Wasn't there a massive leap between the AI like Deep Blue and Alpha Go?

    I haven't played the other games on the list, but reading what others say there seems to be some clever self refection; satire of society, politics and the corporate world. Challenging our notion of games as a representation of reality(Metal Gear Solid 2), critiquing society's attraction to violence as entertainment(Spec Ops), questioning the autonomy and intention of the player and the creator(Bioshock Infinity), ludic condemnation of narrative(Hotline Miami). There's even some interesting politics in games; GTA is un PC, wheras WD's is PC(I'm not sure if that's because of a Canadian sensibility).

    That idea about general AI in the future is for another thread(and there are many problems in what some consider as existential questions for both humans and AI). Many of these debates are included in a series of films I've watched recently, so the debates are happening, one thing PM ideas taught me is that when viewing reality one has to look down through all the layers and see how they affect each other(social, political, psychological, philosophical, etc). That reminds me of Alpha Go which had 48 layers of neural networks, each layer concentrating on a specific part of the problem, and only when each layer had communicated it's perspective, then some sort of conclusion was reached. I like the attitude of the gamers from the Go players to Dendi(Dota2), who see the potential in an AI/HI learning curve that will advance the skills and knowledge of both parties. I think once humans accept AI(and it's happening in all sorts of applications), then the real rate of advancement happens.

    The thing is when I start these threads I never know where they will go(obviously positive suggestions take me in that direction and negative ones make me want to find out more), and they usually surprise me. But then again I am an eternal optimist who looks forward.

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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    T>at least you've got one PM attitude 'cynicism'. Are you some sort of tech spin doctor, because I can't find anything in your posts that is of any value, it's all spin. Each human is a completely unique being, stereotyping is the basis of racism and many other forms of shallow thinking. Everyone is aware of PM ideas because they are embedded in culture, but that's all late twentieth century thinking.

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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    (is it alright to triple post?) I found that AI scripted film strangely compelling. It does have a tv sci fi feel about it, like you said 'too much X files'. It reminds me of Burrough's cut up technique which Bowie adopted.

    It's the interesting juxtapositions that leads to new ways of writing, new ways of thinking. I think it's good as a start, but like that novel 'The Day a Computer Writes a Novel' the AI system needs coaching and editing. I mean isn't that what humans do anyway, absorb the genre and try to move it forward(where the publisher coaches and encourages self editing). And frankly there are plenty of boring and cliched sci fi films out there made by humans. As an exercise it's interesting even if the result wasn't brilliant. Also the way they claimed the AI had cheated, it's perfect sci fi material.

    Here's the end of the AI novel> 'I writhed with joy, which I experienced for the first time, and kept writing with excitement. The day a computer wrote a novel. The computer, placing priority on the pursuit of its own joy, stopped working for humans'. Send the royalties in bitcoin.

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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    Thanks I'll check out that film. From what I've read I think the AI in games is seen by those in the business as the big break through. I'm sure they must have large amounts of money to invest in R&D, and an enthusiastic work force. I think what they are aiming for is a development of what is at a basic level at the moment. But it won't be long until each decision the player makes has consequences in terms of where the narrative goes. I only got into GTA V recently(too much hype put me off), but it's use of interweaving narrative is clever.

    Wasn't there a massive leap between the AI like Deep Blue and Alpha Go?
    Deep Blue was a conventional computer program, not really an AI. It's "cleverness" is programmed in, so it can't be better than it's creators, though it can be the sum of its creators.

    The massive leap was in deep learning neural networks. We knew how to make neural networks in the 60's, but we were rubbish at training them. Systems like Alpha Go are trained networks, and these systems often learn by playing against themselves based on a programmed scoring system so they know if they are improving. That means they can learn tricks their creators never dreamed of.

    So it's the AI research that is driving this, the game playing AI's are just using the existing tools with better effect as time goes on. In fact, it is already at the point where we should probably be teaching this stuff in schools. "Today we will create an AI that plays Frogger" would be a lot more current than the "Today we will write a calculator in vis-basic" that my kids actually do in lessons. As for the game industry having money for R&D, sadly they have a reputation for poor pay and conditions which doesn't attract the best programmers out there. But I'm sure once a "The Singularity for Dummies" book comes out they will be right on it.

    Have you played "The Talos Principle"? A fun puzzle game with a philosophy based storyline, might be right up your street.
    Last edited by DanceswithUnix; 09-05-2018 at 08:24 AM.

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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    (is it alright to triple post?)
    It’s generally better to multiple quote the people you are replying to in one post - it makes the thread more compact and slightly easier to navigate.
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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    T>at least you've got one PM attitude 'cynicism'. Are you some sort of tech spin doctor, because I can't find anything in your posts that is of any value, it's all spin.
    I can't find anything of value in yours. It's all pretentious witter and amateur attempts at being philosophical about something that doesn't have a philosophical basis. Cut the power to your mains socket, run out of battery or smash the solar panel and the whole principle of this VR world that blurs reality to the point of being indistinguishable just..... goes.... poof.
    It's gone. Doesn't exist. It's entirely artificial to begin with, so that supposedly blurred line between reality and fiction comes crashing down like a solid military high-security barrier to firmly divide the two again.
    So too does your concept of AI-created content, which cannot include the human element it doesn't have in the first place. It actually requires the human to get past the barrier that the AI itself cannot breach. Therefore the only route is to lower the human expectation beneath the level of that which the AI produces... which we're currently getting through this flood of trite mediocre guff on TV and in cinemas.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    Each human is a completely unique being, stereotyping is the basis of racism and many other forms of shallow thinking.
    Yes, yes, you're an 'individual', just like everyone else....
    #MeToo
    Were that the case, then there'd be no common themes with which anyone identified and none of the stories in movies, books and games would be popular for such reasons.

    Stereotyping is a fundamental principle of how the brain learns, with prejudice forming the basis of learning by experience. Both can be positive or negative and used as such. It's utterly primal and you're programmed by Nature to do this, just like every other creature. AI learns this way, too.

    It only becomes racism if one uses negative sterotypes to belittle one race and assert the superiority of another over the former. Very shallow reasoning I'm sure you'd argue, but a fundamental on which your assertion is therefore erroneously founded. No point in trying to reckon yourself all deep of thought when your starting point is already way off the mark... That's purposely putting yourself up the creek without even a boat, let alone a paddle.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    Everyone is aware of PM ideas because they are embedded in culture, but that's all late twentieth century thinking.
    Not quite.
    Its themes have become so commonplace that it has been utterly absorbed into the mainstream and diluted to the point of no longer having value amidst the swirl of everything else, in an already over-saturated world where everyone is a #MeToo about their uniqueness, to the point where (since the 1990s) most critics argue that PM is dead. It didn't even have a proper End, as such... just a quiet fizzling out.

    Really though, it's just a label... one from which have sprung numerous sub, sub-sub, and sub-sub-sub-genre labels, all of which are just people trying to be more individual and unique in how they dictate what is and is not a valid form of artistic expression, and argue amongst themselves about whether something is fine art, high art, low art or whatever.

  20. Received thanks from:

    Disturbedguy (09-05-2018)

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