GAMING, the future.

[johnroe]

Deep Blue was a conventional computer program, not really an AI. It's "cleverness" is programmed in, so it can't be better than it's creators, though it can be the sum of its creators.

The massive leap was in deep learning neural networks. We knew how to make neural networks in the 60's, but we were rubbish at training them. Systems like Alpha Go are trained networks, and these systems often learn by playing against themselves based on a programmed scoring system so they know if they are improving. That means they can learn tricks their creators never dreamed of.

So it's the AI research that is driving this, the game playing AI's are just using the existing tools with better effect as time goes on. In fact, it is already at the point where we should probably be teaching this stuff in schools. "Today we will create an AI that plays Frogger" would be a lot more current than the "Today we will write a calculator in vis-basic" that my kids actually do in lessons. As for the game industry having money for R&D, sadly they have a reputation for poor pay and conditions which doesn't attract the best programmers out there. But I'm sure once a "The Singularity for Dummies" book comes out they will be right on it.

Have you played "The Talos Principle"? A fun puzzle game with a philosophy based storyline, might be right up your street.

Oh yes I understand the difference between Deep Blue and AlphaGo. I may not have been in the business for years, but the internet is knowledge at my fingertips. I was just asking you, if you considered that to be a massive leap forward. I obviously do.

I just remember when Alpha Go beat Lee Sedol. His response was that in the 2,500 years that Go has been played, no human would have made some of those moves. The player said he had already incorporated them into his repertoire, and that's why I see the AI/HI interaction to be the next leap forward.

Also I listened to how the OpenAI dudes coached the Dota2 bot. They said at first it obviously had no idea, and only after and intense coaching period(by humans) was it able to reach a stage where it could play enough games against a version of itself, that it could advance over those two weeks to beat the best players. In the next few years they intend to create an HI/AI team.

I watched Dendi play the bot(at some Dota2 championship), the first game he played his normal way, but realised how strong and aggressive the bot was. By the second game, he was imitating the game play of the bot. After the third, he refused to play it any more, but realised shortly after that playing against an advanced bot like that would take his game to a whole new level.

I don't know what they are teaching in schools, but you're no doubt right, and the next generation should take this tech to a whole new level. It is interesting that gaming is a testing ground for AI, but I'm wondering also what will happen after it's mastered all our game strategies. What will be the new challenges that take it to the next level of development and change the way we develop AI systems, which could also lead to a massive leap forward. Philosophy is only part of my interests. I'm a conceptual artist and I try to absorb anything that is of value to me.

[johnroe]

T>I'll just address this, although it is a side issue which I'm not sure why you're focusing on. Wazzicle is right when he says that many of those writers seem abstruse and use obscure terms. That's why I try to absorb their ideas and express them in my own simpler language. Some of them like Derrida took me a long time to get a handle on. Obviously we all absorb data and interpret it in our own ways.

I'd say that we will always be living in a post modern world, because it just refers to everything that's happened since 1945(the rupture in world history that signalled an end to Modernism and the proceeding two- three hundred years). So all of the; writers, film makers, philosophers, artists, etc, were taking a radical stance. Most of the thinkers involved are from Germany, France and Italy and they have radically changed the world and how we perceive our place in that world.

WW2 was a war between the powers of Europe, but really it was based on conflicts around the world based on the colonisation by those countries. Now our view of colonisation has changed, and we no longer stereotype whole groups of people because it suits our belief that we are superior to them.

The likes of; Derrida, Foucault, Deleuze and many more were teaching at two different unis in France and inspired the '68 uprisings which had repercussions around the world(the founder of the Baathist socialist Arab party in Syria studied in Paris). I'd think it's very hard to perceive how much the world has changed since the fifties, because radical politics has had such a wide and profound effect. Younger people today are radicalised by this thinking at uni, and they are enjoying an unprecedented time of peace and freedom that has been unknown before in human history.

[DanceswithUnix]

I was just asking you, if you considered that to be a massive leap forward. I obviously do.

Sorry, my reply wasn't clear. Yes, there is a massive leap forward between the two. As I said, one is at best a combination of the skills of it's creators, the other is self taught with tricks it's creators could never have dreamed of.

Games are a handy self contained world which makes them interesting for playing with training systems. We are getting incremental improvements in techniques, and some big increases in the amount of processing power available to run the networks. That won't ever give us a leap in technology though, that needs self adaptation in a way that we recognise as general intelligence.

[johnroe]

Sorry, my reply wasn't clear. Yes, there is a massive leap forward between the two. As I said, one is at best a combination of the skills of it's creators, the other is self taught with tricks it's creators could never have dreamed of.

Games are a handy self contained world which makes them interesting for playing with training systems. We are getting incremental improvements in techniques, and some big increases in the amount of processing power available to run the networks. That won't ever give us a leap in technology though, that needs self adaptation in a way that we recognise as general intelligence.

Thanks I do appreciate input from those in the industry. It's a pity we don't have any games developers on here to give us insights as well. Going on from what you said your children were learning at school. My son was at Falmouth uni, did you by any chance check out the Metamakers Institute which is based there?

The way I understood it, it was the challenges posed by different games that led to the evolution of AI(I'm sure it's only one perspective). So when Donald Waterman created an AI capable of playing poker it had to be able to recognise and categorise the symbols as well as apply the complex and comparative system of rules. For chess Deep Blue used brute force parallel processing. But Go requires a system that mimics human intuition and creativity, hence the 'neural' layers that mimic the human mind. Just according to what I read, AI developers are trying to create a system that can think, learn and develop their own 'personalities'(I'm not sure how that would be defined).

I can see the value of much AI in the real world as a way of enhancing and improving the quality of our lives. I wonder if predictive AI which offers that says something about humans as beings of habit. I think that's the message I see being put forward in films about AI, it asks questions about what it is to be human, how we think and what is a personality(I know these films from 2001 A space Odyssey to Ex Machina are mass entertainment but it puts questions and ideas into peoples' consciousness. Sci Fi has been a fascinating exploration of possible human futures).

[Millennium]

johnroe
I just wanted to offer you thanks for your (to use a House of Lords UK term) learned perspective on all this. I think that we have a schism in terms of education and morality that's going to have to be fixed. I don't know how to fix it personally but I'm sure we will achieve progress, whether it's AI driven or not.

[johnroe]

johnroe
I just wanted to offer you thanks for your (to use a House of Lords UK term) learned perspective on all this. I think that we have a schism in terms of education and morality that's going to have to be fixed. I don't know how to fix it personally but I'm sure we will achieve progress, whether it's AI driven or not.

Now you're asking some challenging questions about 'education and morality', which I think we'll need a new thread to explore. When someone asks me a question online, that I have no idea how to answer at first, my mind and particularly my subconscious mind acts more like a computer. Interestingly both Einstein and Picasso used similar methods to make their breakthroughs in science and the arts.

When I was looking to go beyond the spin about gaming being responsible for the rise in shooters. The evidence suggested otherwise. It's been shown that when a major game is released that there is a drop in crime rates(in America), presumably because all the testosterone fuelled younger men are busy gaming and not out on the streets.

I do have great faith in humanity, in that we can solve many of the problems we create or encounter using tech; that may be clever robotic devices that sift plastics from the sea. I'm sure it would be possible to regulate those who are prone to crime using tech. It may be as simple as an implant that measures chemical changes in the body and then sends a smart phone message that tells the person to calm down, it may then send them a picture of their family to help them remember what's important. ( I'm sure I saw a story recently, that they were using data collected from Fitbit devices to show changes in humans when the political climate was unstable)

But although education is very important in terms of giving people opportunity rather than a life of crime, I really think it's down to parents to instil morality into their children. Children are able to reason from a very young age, and setting a good role model is important because they observe and mimic everything their parents do.

Another important aspect of gaming that parents and children will be aware of, is that it makes links across the generations. My son and I share some music tastes, and we often have long conversations on the phone. After we've discussed the usual; family, job stuff, etc, we discuss gaming(the interest level increases). He's much more advanced than me. I enjoy testing his rig when I visit him, and he indulges me by testing mine.

Another simple aspect, I think humans need adventure in their lives. So while I have had some real life adventures, it's not always possible. Skyrim was a simulation of a viking adventure, I think if you can suspend your disbelief, the mind could in the future not be able to distinguish between reality and virtual reality.

[Ttaskmaster]

Wazzicle is right when he says that many of those writers seem abstruse and use obscure terms.

His argument was that you were doing this yourself.

I'd say that we will always be living in a post modern world, because it just refers to everything that's happened since 1945

So again, a nigh-on meaningless term, then, since it's everything anyway.

Now our view of colonisation has changed, and we no longer stereotype whole groups of people because it suits our belief that we are superior to them.

As nations, perhaps not... at least in some areas of the world. But on an individual basis, I see this continue every single day, with all manner of groups. Much of our society utterly hinges on groups and stereotypes, with half those very groups creating their own stereotypes in order to belong.

I'd think it's very hard to perceive how much the world has changed since the fifties, because radical politics has had such a wide and profound effect.

Not really... Pretty easy, in fact.

Younger people today are radicalised by this thinking at uni, and they are enjoying an unprecedented time of peace and freedom that has been unknown before in human history.

Peace and freedom in what sense and in what part of the world?
People are being spied upon more than ever, to the point where their very identity can be easily taken from them.
We have had numerous armed conflicts, both official and otherwise, to the point where 500 a day were being killed.
People are slaves to fashion and image, social pressure, marketing, information and misinformation, political correctness, media agenda, corporate whim and so much more.
Certain freedoms have been instigated, but they carry with them their own restrictions, to the point where in many cases it's just the label that has changed.

Thanks I do appreciate input from those in the industry. It's a pity we don't have any games developers on here to give us insights as well.

I know a couple of game Devs who do watch this forum and occasionally post. I also work with some non-game AI developers downstairs, who are working on one that watches survey footage and makes decisions based on the images.

I think that's the message I see being put forward in films about AI, it asks questions about what it is to be human, how we think and what is a personality(I know these films from 2001 A space Odyssey to Ex Machina are mass entertainment but it puts questions and ideas into peoples' consciousness.

What it means to be human is something people have pondered for thousands of years, with all manner of different conclusions.... but how has that ever changed our society for the better? Wars are never fought over ideas of what makes us human, either with weapons or with words. It always always comes down to a battle for superiority. This country over that, this religion over that, this gender over that, this company over that... and at the end of it all, I still have to get up and go to work just the same.

I do have great faith in humanity, in that we can solve many of the problems we create or encounter using tech;

I have no such faith, in that we will simply create more problems in the process of solving the previous ones (if indeed they ever are truly solved instead of being quieted down and swept under the rug).

But although education is very important in terms of giving people opportunity rather than a life of crime, I really think it's down to parents to instil morality into their children. Children are able to reason from a very young age, and setting a good role model is important because they observe and mimic everything their parents do.

They also learn from their environment and in a tech-laden society where children are simply plopped down in fron of an iPad to keep them quiet, by parents who are so busy with their tech-centric lives that they expect the school to do their parenting for them, the results are not promising.

Another simple aspect, I think humans need adventure in their lives. So while I have had some real life adventures, it's not always possible. Skyrim was a simulation of a viking adventure, I think if you can suspend your disbelief, the mind could in the future not be able to distinguish between reality and virtual reality.

How could this ever be a good thing, though?
Reality is having to get up and go to work, slaving away just to survive. It's only the lucky few who will afford the tech to play these ultra-reality games, drive these fancy sports cars, go on whatever adventures, etc.

[johnroe]

T>We can count on you can't we, the first few lines.....if you aren't Seamus Milne or Lynton Crosby then I'd consider a change of profession. I really can't be bothered. When people take what I say and post inane comments afterwards. I lose interest. Thanks anyway.

[wazzickle]

Look he's actually trying to explain his position to you in a reasonable manner which was more than you can say for me, and then you respond by dismissing him out of hand like that just because he's open with his snarkiness and doesn't bother veiling it - presumably because he thinks you're a big boy and can take people disagreeing with you? And you can't be bothered to engage with his disagreements on this topic you started? What were you looking for when you started this thread, a bunch of people to come and say 'omg johnroe you're so right let's start a cult around how right and learned you are'. You haven't found your audience yet mate. Keep trying.

[Ttaskmaster]

When people take what I say and post inane comments afterwards. I lose interest. Thanks anyway.

I sincerely apologise for not being upon whatever lofty levelels of hyperintellectualism you seem to believe you're on... but if you were indeed where you think you are, the world would surely be a much better post-modern place by now?
As is, what you're saying doesn't tally with the world around us, so I'm simply calling you on it... and not finding any refutation to be forthcoming.

Since I suspect you're neither of those individuals either, might I suggest you also adopt a similar change of profession?
And yes, that part was deliberately sarky!

Fact of the matter is that whatever post-modern witter you want to bandy about, people who write stories for films and games don't need to give a flip about it, any more than a master skateboarder would need the same grasp of physics that Stephen Hawking did.

[johnroe]

Wazzickle and T> I'm not really into all that attack the poster, not address the thread stuff. I'm not interested in belittling and ridiculing other people or where they find inspiring ideas. I'm not into all that 'bitchy' stuff. So I suggest from now on you longer read my posts, because I'm not going to limit how I use ideas to suit your limitations. I'll reciprocate and ignore your posts. You two are obviously tight. Have fun now.

[johnroe]

I've been considering what drives technology forward. It used to be wars(out tech and out produce the enemy). There must be some creative people who see developments in materials, are able to bring together ideas and solutions from many different disciplines to take tech to a new level.

But as everything is connected, surely those ideas that were freely flowing in the sixties(plus some LSD allegedly) led to the creation of an interface and world wide connectivity. Because the internet leads to the free flow of ideas, rather than a hierarchical structure of power(of knowledge).

On the gaming future, it does seem inevitable that with ideas like neural meshes as an interface with the human mind, that in the future we could experience virtual reality within the mind. (Yes I know, the idea behind several sci fi films)

[Ttaskmaster]

Wazzickle and T> I'm not really into all that attack the poster, not address the thread stuff.

Says he who has done exactly that in this very thread already...

I'm not interested in belittling and ridiculing other people or where they find inspiring ideas.

Nor am I... But neither am I afraid to challenge others when they throw their ideas out for public discussion. I find a lot of overeducated liberals do get rather uppity when their opinions are called out.

So I suggest from now on you longer read my posts, because I'm not going to limit how I use ideas to suit your limitations.

So you don't actually understand this stuff sufficiently to explain it in simple terms, then...?

You two are obviously tight. Have fun now.

Not exactly... From what I recall, Wazzickle and I are usually arguing vehemently against each other, before the Mods step in and threaten to lock us up in the biscuit tin, or something.

But hey, as a budding video game auteur, I'm sure you have a perfectly valid postdialectic paradigm of social commentary to elucidate the Derriadist relationship betwixt Wazz and myself interpolated by yourself...

[Ttaskmaster]

It used to be wars(out tech and out produce the enemy). There must be some creative people who see developments in materials, are able to bring together ideas and solutions from many different disciplines to take tech to a new level.

Warfare still is the biggest driver, although the battlefields and armies have changed a little in recent times. New theatres have emerged too, governing over all of which is money and power.

Because the internet leads to the free flow of ideas, rather than a hierarchical structure of power(of knowledge).

If that were the case, why do we have VPNs, onion routers and all that? Why do the Deep and Dark webs need to exist? Why do so many sites that are packed with information cost so much more money than a simple library membership?
Data is knowledge. Knowledge is power. Control the knowledge, wield the power... and make money selling it to other companies.

On the gaming future, it does seem inevitable that with ideas like neural meshes as an interface with the human mind, that in the future we could experience virtual reality within the mind. (Yes I know, the idea behind several sci fi films)

A lot is very possible, including what you suggest here... but that also opens people up to far more in the way of targeted advertising, mind control and who knows what else (also a frequently explored concept in sci-fi).

[wazzickle]

Both LSD and the internet were products in some part at least due to military funding.

My connection to ttaskmaster is that i drive past where he lives once or twice a week on average. Well, within 3 miles.

Everything in life is about sex, apart from sex, which is about power, and power, which is about sex. Now that's postmodernism. Well it's actually Wildeanism, which is rooted in postmodernism, in the sense that postmodernism is actually rooted in the ideas of the fictive endeavours of Italo Calvino, which is rooted in Wildeanism. Now mind control is a different thing, and for that, you need to invoke Sellersian ideas of 'Purity of Essence'. Reggie Watts explained it much better than I can in his Ted Talk.

[wazzickle]

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