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Thread: GAMING, the future.

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    GAMING, the future.

    I'm more interested in culture(as opposed to PC components, ie: once the PC is built, I just want to use it). Using the PC for gaming, watching films, making music, etc.

    I've been exploring that cross over area where films influence games and vice versa, which makes me think that games could be more engaging if there's an emotional tie between different characters and the players. Otherwise games(and some films) seem once removed, detached. Some games have emotional ties and players react when say certain characters die. Games could also have 'moral' dilemmas, I know some games like GTA gives you choices(and I make my own moral choices and decisions, where possible).

    Slavog Zizek makes the point that gamers often choose a forceful, powerful character. It's supposed that in the game people want to be Superman rather than Clark Kent(a Lithuanian/Jewish immigrant geek invented SM after his father was shot. In his imagination he imagined himself deflecting the deadly bullet). But Zizek goes further and says that your gaming character is the real you, released from the laws and conventions that keep you meek.

    I've just been catching up on Black Mirror(S4) and the first episode USS Callister explores this idea through gaming and sci fi. I think some of the Black Mirror episodes are some of the best sci fi made, exploring how tech is changing our lives now and in the future. In that episode the geeky gamer creates his own sci fi universe where he is a god and all his co workers are his slaves. It's cynical and clever. Even funny, at one point when Cole is threatened, she asks the captain if he's about to throw a fireball. So really I'm trying to understand where gaming is now and what developers can do to keep us engaged into the future.

    USS Callister> <Edit by admin: Link to site showing material that may be subject to copyright has been removed>
    Last edited by peterb; 24-04-2018 at 06:16 PM. Reason: Link removal

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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    which makes me think that games could be more engaging if there's an emotional tie between different characters and the players.
    Not being funny, but everyone already knows this.
    Difference is that with many modern games and films, people just make it look pretty and churn it out. It's a lazy approach, just like having female support characters who do nothing but scream, faint and get kidnapped.

    One thing the Mass Effect series did very well was to engage the player with the other characters, give you those moral choices and all that. Others have done this too, although ME and Dragon Age are personal favourites.

    So yeah, devs and film makers already know this... but so long as people are buying based on just the pretty graphics/CGI then they will happily piddle on such things and instead simply churn out remakes and piles of mindless cack like Alien Prometheus.

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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    Yes I think they've tried making people feel more for the characters, and it has worked to some degree. Watchdogs draws you in to this whole guilt revenge trip based on the dead niece and the threatened family.

    It's obvious that some people get quite affected by events in the game. I suppose I want it to be more realistic. Actually I think there are elements to many different games which if brought together would move the genre forward dramatically; things like potential to shift to different characters.

    Bringing together different people who understand how games affect the mind with developers in an attempt to make the games more intellectually challenging, would make the games more stimulating and they could even be incorporated into education.

    Also I'd call in auteurs like Tarantino to write and direct the game. Also these haptic suits combined with VR would give us a total immersion experience.

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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    Zizek is an intentionally impenetrable hot air bag whose opinion on semiotics would probably be worth something if I could understand what he was trying to say or what semiotics actually is but couldn't care less what he has to say with regards to gaming. My gaming self is perhaps at best a distorted aspect of my true self. My drunkself is a better representation of my true self than my gaming self.

    Games have already been doing what you've suggested for literally decades, but format and culture changes are leading to more of it.

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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    Bringing together different people who understand how games affect the mind with developers in an attempt to make the games more intellectually challenging, would make the games more stimulating and they could even be incorporated into education.
    Again, they already know this... Guff sells better, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    Also I'd call in auteurs like Tarantino to write and direct the game.
    I'd quit gaming if he got involved. Same for anyone else who describes themselves as an auteur.
    That'd be like getting Chris Roberts to direct a movie based on his own best-selling game series...

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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    Hey some great positive ideas there!

    wazzickle>At least Zizek puts forward some interesting ideas and is willing to engage with modern culture. He's certainly not impenetrable(hot air bag maybe, I don't know), I enjoy his film reviews and have read several of his books.

    I'm just looking at ideas from philosophers and psychologists, looking at film makers techniques and different elements from gaming that work and bouncing off some of Charlie Brooker's ideas expressed in Black Mirror.

    Ttaskmaster>there was a movement against autuers as part of postmodernist thought, but having seen the dross that's turned out by committees who decide on films story and filming based on early release audience reaction, I've decided that auteurs produce better films, and should be tried in the gaming world. Ben Wheatley would be another great auteur to have on the team, after his film Free Fire .

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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    Ttaskmaster>there was a movement against autuers as part of postmodernist thought
    That's nice.
    I just think it's a pretentious term used for and by pretentious artistic fashionista wannabes.
    The word is Director.
    Also, don't forget that Kanye West is an auteur.......

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    , but having seen the dross that's turned out by committees who decide on films story and filming based on early release audience reaction, I've decided that auteurs produce better films
    Only if they have that creative freedom. Most of them are at the mercy of the budget-holders and in many games the exact same is true.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    I've decided that auteurs produce better films and should be tried in the gaming world.
    Two very different mediums, hence the Chris Roberts remark.
    A two or three hour film is not the same as 120 or even 60 hours of game. You also have to balance passive plot feed with active player actions, engagements, tasks, undertakings and general activity... and drive both as well as each other.

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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    T>There's a big difference between an auteur who has a vision, often writes and directs the film, and a director. I think that's an illusion that they are two different mediums. Films and games influence and overlap in many ways. A simple example is where they got the idea for Player Unknown's Battleground. But obviously we are all immersed in culture; literature, films, music, gaming and current ideas, so gamers and film makers are learning from each other.

    I think it inevitable that films and gaming will combine and people will inhabit a more cinematic virtual reality with a more engaging plot. It's also being driven by the new tech innovations in gaming and the film making world; CGI, scanning actors into virtual worlds, VR, etc.

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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    T>There's a big difference between an auteur who has a vision, often writes and directs the film, and a director.
    J> There are differences, but that is mainly just job title. So many actors cross over into being producers, directors, even writers, as well as directors getting more involved with other elements of the project as they develop their skills, that pretty much anyone considered a 'big name' director is bordering on being an 'auteur' nowadays.

    But again - Kanye West.....

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    I think that's an illusion that they are two different mediums. Films and games influence and overlap in many ways. A simple example is where they got the idea for Player Unknown's Battleground.
    There are overlaps all over the place between all media... But that doesn't mean someone skilled in one is going to be awesome in another. Case in point, book-to-film. Even when the book's own author has written the screenplay, what works in one does not always work in t'other.
    Another case in point - Wing Commander. Great games, hideous film, both fully helmed by Chris Roberts.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    I think it inevitable that films and gaming will combine and people will inhabit a more cinematic virtual reality with a more engaging plot.
    I think both will simply tend toward catering for whatever audience they choose. Amazeballz CGI/graphics for the Michael Bay* fans, for example.

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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    T>I was just looking at the cross over between directors and video games and there is interest in using skills from different media. I'm not sure how successful these were.

    11 Famous Directors Who Have Directed Video Game Trailers> http://www.denofgeek.com/us/games/vi...-game-trailers

    8 ICONIC MOVIE DIRECTORS WHO HAVE MADE VIDEO GAMES> http://www.wow247.co.uk/2014/07/28/i...o-games-88924/

    I know you say most of this is known, but it's just something I've started thinking about and looking into. You can get help with the Kanye West obsession, it doesn't work as an argument. I know who I consider to be auteurs.

    What Zizek does is throw out an idea, and look at it from a different perspective, maybe in psychological terms. I think there is an interesting idea about which type of character you choose, or how you play out as a certain character(in GTA V did you play as Trevor differently to Franklin). I don't necessarily agree with Zizek, I choose characters similar to myself where that's possible. Or I play with the mentality of the character to some degree(in GTAV), plus my own bias. But there are some interesting psychological questions about gaming, and for example does it affect you in real life. And what does your character choice say about your psychology.

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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    Is auteur a mis-spelling of ‘author’ or ‘amateur’? (Or maybe an amalgam of both - an ‘amateur author’?)
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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    It's a real word that's generally said by people who genuinely believe the things they're saying.

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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    T>I was just looking at the cross over between directors and video games and there is interest in using skills from different media. I'm not sure how successful these were.
    Most of those you cited had some involvement, but were second or third fiddle to the main Dev team, according to the links.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    I know you say most of this is known, but it's just something I've started thinking about and looking into.
    And you're not wrong. I do not dispute the basis of your assertion at all.
    However, it's like arguing that a film might do well if it had deep and complex characters, meaningful plot, engaging and clever dialogue... at a time when the latest Transformers CGI-fest or some T&A Action Film is topping the box office charts.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    You can get help with the Kanye West obsession, it doesn't work as an argument.
    Hey, I just went looking for some good examples of auteurs and Kanye was all over the place. It's not my obsession...!

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    I know who I consider to be auteurs.
    Same here, but single opinions like ours do not make it so.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    What Zizek does is throw out an idea, and look at it from a different perspective, maybe in psychological terms.
    None of which will make much difference if a Dev/Publisher can sell millions of units just by putting T&A, fancy graphics and a bit of gameplay in.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    I think there is an interesting idea about which type of character you choose, or how you play out as a certain character(in GTA V did you play as Trevor differently to Franklin).
    I've never played any GTA. Closest I got was Saints Row III, which got quite boring quite quickly.
    I'd be interested if you have more resources on the idea in general, but I don't think it's an especially mainstream aspect to gaming. If it were, we'd have a lot more decent plot-centric games.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    But there are some interesting psychological questions about gaming, and for example does it affect you in real life. And what does your character choice say about your psychology.
    There is a minor effect, I'd say, or at least a short-term one. I'm easily sucked into a lot of suspension-of-disbelief stories, so probably more susceptible to such things... which is probably why I'm not enjoying the new Tomb Raiders or ME: Andromeda.

    As for my character choice - Easy: I have the psychology of a strong, good looking woman with a fabulous behind and awesome fashion sense!


    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    Is auteur a mis-spelling of ‘author’ or ‘amateur’? (Or maybe an amalgam of both - an ‘amateur author’?)
    Kinda, sorta, pretty much......

    Is French, for someone who does everything (directs, produce, write, etc), to the point where they are considered the author and their name is basically the brand - Think of a Wes Craven film, or a Spielberg film, Woody Allen, Alfred Hitchcock, perhaps even John Woo.

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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    With 'auteur', it's just a commonly understood descriptive noun. It's just that the films that have been made by auteurs, which just means they have total artistic control, is what made films the foremost art form of the twentieth century. It's obvious which films were made by auteurs because they are the best films ever made.

    Both I and Zizek agree that gaming has the potential to become the foremost art form of the twenty first century, but it needs to evolve somehow first. I started looking into this after Trump was indicating that gaming was to blame for a rise in shooters. The evidence indicated that this was an American problem.

    Also I had a discussion about gaming with someone who thought they were 'silly'. After my defence of the genre her opinion was reversed. I think as gamers now are aged from 5 yrs to 70 yrs, that wide demographic needs to be engaged with. Part of my defence was that rather than old folk sitting in chairs playing bingo, hook them up to a VR. As the body declines the mind is still stimulated.

    T>I do have a specific gaming history, mostly open world. But I am enjoying GTA series at moment(hence references). But I'm sure each gamer must see certain things in each game they play, that they'd like to see used again, or they'd like to see developed. Devs do interact on the forums listening to players, explaining things. I think they also learn what players want by watching which mods they create.

    I enjoy good graphics and the detail in some games. Sometimes as a character I do just stop and view the landscape, cityscape, waterfalls, sunsets on the virtual beach. I think as the graphics approaches a simulation of reality, those elements are equally important. I'm not sure(in that I can't put into words), but gaming affects the way I think and the way I then view reality. Interesting what you say about more open to 'suspension of disbelief', one of the modes almost created by the cinema. I think there is a sense in general that fiction, reality and virtual reality are over lapping(Charlie Brooker and Umberto Eco territory).

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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    With 'auteur', it's just a commonly understood descriptive noun.

    It's obvious which films were made by auteurs because they are the best films ever made.
    Brilliant, if I was making up a character I couldn't make one up as funny as you.

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    Re: GAMING, the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnroe View Post
    It's obvious which films were made by auteurs because they are the best films ever made.
    Which is completely subjective, so the term ‘auteur’ is completely arbitrary! (And some very talented directors have also made poor films.)

    I fear you are starting to confirm my view that it is just a bit of pretentious tosh.
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