Best Games Designer Ever?

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10-12-2005, 07:49 PM
Stewart

Best Games Designer Ever?

Who do you reckon?

In this thread I'll make the case for who I think it is, then you can agree, or disagree and make a case for someone else.

Right, lets get on with it then: Its Shigeru Miyamoto. No ifs, no buts. End of thread. :)

But just for the sake of argument:

Super Mario Bros, Super Mario Bros 2, Super Mario Bros 3, Super Mario World, Super Mario 64. (NES 1985, NES 1986, NES 1989, SNES 1991, N64 1996) - Miyamoto's Role: Director, Producer.

'Shigeru Miyamoto invented the modern videogame.'

A quote from Wired Magazine - and while he was creating the modern video game, he was also starting what would be a run of almost perfect games lasting for more than a decade, each one critically acclaimed as a classic (minimum amount of praise thats ever been given to one of these games), a masterpiece (usually closer to the mark). Bad reviews for these games do not exsist on any respected website or in any respected magazine, because no-one who knows anything about games and enjoys them could fail to appriciate the work done here.

Along the way Miyamoto perfected the 2D platformer, then took that and crafted the first, and still the best, 3D platformer (Mario 64), made Mario by far the most recogniseable video game character in history (as well as being responsible for creating Mario in the first place, just for those who don't know), made the best 8bit game ever (Mario Bros 3) and one of the best 16bit games ever (Super Mario World*) on any system, and pretty much did what no-one else will surely ever be able to do.

Super Mario Bros sold in the millions, Super Mario Bros 3 sold in the millions, Super Mario World... well, you get the idea. By the end of 1993 there were in excess of 100 million Mario titles sold worldwide. That, my friends, is the CV that crushes all others.

Or at least it would be if Miyamoto had just came along, created Mario, created most of the best games of all time, then dissapeared.

Legend Of Zelda: A Link To The Past, Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask - (SNES 1991, N64 1998 \ 2000) - Miyamoto's Role: Producer \ Director.

Just a little side-line. :)

Again, just like with Mario, we get the best games of their type, hands down. Zelda on the SNES is (again) a contender for one of the finsest games ever, and its still the best adventure game of any type I've played. Then, of course, it all goes 3D, and just as everyone was wowed by Mario 64, they were again when Zelda went 3D with (contender for one of the best games ever, and best 3D adventure game ever :D - sorry, but it is the case) Ocarina of Time.

The IGN review for Ocarina of Time started 'IGN reviews the biggest game of the decade. Does Zelda 64 live up to the hype?' and finished with 'If you're making games and you haven't played this game, then you're like a director who has never seen Citizen Kane or a musician who has never heard of Mozart. If you're a gamer looking for your next title to buy, then take it from me, this is as good as it's going to get for a looooong time.'

So, thats a yes then. Just goes to show that Miyamoto didn't get lucky with the Mario games and then keeping rehashing the concept - Mario evolved from simple arcade games to the AAA titles released for home Nintendo systems, and other characters, like Link from the Zelda series, arguably match Mario in every way. He didn't just do it once, he did it time and time again.

Turning away from platform and adventure games:

Super Mario Kart - (SNES, 1992) - Miyamoto's Role: Producer.

*The* best single player racing game of all time on any system. *The* best multiplayer racing game of all time on any system. Most of you wont agree, most of you will think of Gran Turismo or Project Gotham or WipeOut or something else, and most of you would be wrong.

Probably the most consistantly entertaining and generally fun game I've ever played. Genius idea: Mario and the gang in small, nippy karts, racing around Mushroom Kingdom tracks, smacking each other with red shells and banana skins while they do. 50, 100 and 150cc racing, 20 tracks, loads of weapons, a brilliant battle mode - all time classic.

Of course, there's much more; Donkey Kong hasn't even been mentioned yet, and alone that is more than enough to see off a lot of other games designers achivements (Without Donkey Kong things would be very different for Mario, Nintendo, Platform games, and video game history), F-Zero, Star Fox, Super Smash Bros, Metroid Prime, Pikmin, etc, etc, etc. All these games had some some of creative input from Miyamoto, as did many, many more great games.

Now, all the above 'best game ever' type comments are just my opinion, and you can agree or disagree on if these games were the best ever, but I think what there can be no disagreement on is that Miyamoto has an unmatched gaming CV, an unmatched gaming pedigree, and is, by far, the greatest video games designer ever.

What Miyamoto was doing in the 80s was so far ahead of the 'Super Triple X Wrestling FIFA Tony Hawks Pro Machine Gun 10' tripe that EA and others churn out today, its embarassing. I am very much looking forward to the Revolution and the next generation of Miyamoto \ Nintendo games.

Anyway, as this thread is about who's the best games designer ever, you can now do one of two things - either add to the general 'He is the guv'ner' type comments I've already started, and say why you agree, or (very foolishly) put the case for someone else, who you think has more talent and a better overall record of producing fun, quailty video games than the man who has clearly produced more fun, quality video games than anyone else. :D

Hideo Kojima, John Carmack... no chance. :D

EDIT - When I say Super Mario Bros 2, I mean the real Super Mario Bros 2, which was released over here as 'Super Mario Bros - The Lost Levels'. The game we (Us and the Yanks) call Super Mario Bros 2 is a completely different game, that is nothing to do with Mario, that just had a few sprites nailed onto it, to pass it off as a Mario game. This was released in Japan as Super Mario Bros USA.

The reason why the Japanese got the real Mario 2 and we got something else passed off as Mario 2? Well, its a lot harder than the first game, and Nintendo thought it would be too tough for American gamers to enjoy.
10-12-2005, 08:06 PM
directhex

you're on a forum of pc gamers, Stewart

everyone's gonna vote for gabe 'fatboy' newell ;)
10-12-2005, 08:06 PM
Spud1

Nuff said by Stewart really, I agree with you 100% mate :) reasons? you outlined them above but just as a re-affirmation, he has consistantly come up with innovative and fun games that generally have immense replay value. Ok so Carmack has done that, but not with quite the variety or number of games as Mr Miyamoto.

And yeah your right about the Super Mario 2 we had :( was poor, from memory i think it was originally doiu doki panic or something?
10-12-2005, 08:18 PM
Stewart

Quote:

Originally Posted by directhex

you're on a forum of pc gamers, Stewart

everyone's gonna vote for gabe 'fatboy' newell ;)

Gabe Newell isn't fit to shine the shoes of the boy who shines Miyamoto's shoes.

A game is a game, on the PC or on a console, and they are directly comparable. A good game is a good game, and a turkey is a turkey, if you have a control pad or a keyboard and mouse. Some games are more suited to one or the other (Platform and Beat-Em-Ups on consoles, and FPS and RTS games on PC) but the same rules still apply.

Some people just are 'the man' in their field, and I think this is an obvious case. Thats why I always say - the Japanese make the best video games, and they always have.

I think with Miyamoto you could put together one of those '10 Best Games ever' things that people do, and using only games that he has made, come up with a strong, credible list. Using games just from one designer. That is something you can not do with anyone else.

Really, I only need Final Fantasy VII, Street Fighter II and Manic Miner from outside the Miyamoto (and therefore Nintendo) stable of games to make my top 10, and I've been playing games since the ZX Spectrum days. Nintendo have just been so far ahead of everyone in that time, not much else gets in, and this is 90% down to one man.
10-12-2005, 08:33 PM
Jonny M

Does CliffyB count as a designer?
10-12-2005, 08:39 PM
Stewart

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caged

Does CliffyB count as a designer?

That would depend very much on if he designs games. If he does, then yes, if he does not, then no. This is based on an observation I made that if you want to be a games designer, the thing you must do above all else is design games.

Hope that clears things up for you.
10-12-2005, 09:10 PM
smtkr

Quote:

Originally Posted by directhex

you're on a forum of pc gamers, Stewart

everyone's gonna vote for gabe 'fatboy' newell ;)

If it means anything, I hate Gay Newell.

PS: Miyamoto will never be matched
10-12-2005, 09:51 PM
directhex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caged

Does CliffyB count as a designer?

yes, but he's been quoted as saying only graphics matter
10-12-2005, 10:01 PM
directhex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stewart

Well, its a lot harder than the first game, and Nintendo thought it would be too tough for American gamers to enjoy.

curiously, american gamers appear to just be big wusses - the market there for "strategy guides", cheat cartridges etc is HUGE. no self-respecting japanese gamer stoops to those levels

as for the original argument?

http://apebox.org/modules/img-gen//M...oom_zelda3.jpg

*cough*
10-12-2005, 10:33 PM
Stewart

A Miyamoto signed Link to the Past cart? You bastard. :D

*Bows down before Hex*
11-12-2005, 01:32 AM
smtkr

Quote:

Originally Posted by directhex

curiously, american gamers appear to just be big wusses - the market there for "strategy guides", cheat cartridges etc is HUGE. no self-respecting japanese gamer stoops to those levels

I don't have any stats on this. I'm curious if it is disproportional to the market sizes, or if the cheating market is huge in the United States because it is the biggest market.
11-12-2005, 02:06 AM
directhex

Quote:

Originally Posted by smtkr

I don't have any stats on this. I'm curious if it is disproportional to the market sizes, or if the cheating market is huge in the United States because it is the biggest market.

nah, it's disproportionate - a higher percentage of us gamers than anyone else have cheat guides etc
11-12-2005, 12:44 PM
Deadlight

Two names came to mind - the first was Peter Molyneux. Then Miyamoto-san. And you know what? You're right.
11-12-2005, 12:53 PM
yamangman

You're wrong. It's Oleg Maddox i'm afraid.
11-12-2005, 01:14 PM
DeludedGuy

James Ohlen gets my vote
11-12-2005, 01:34 PM
directhex

see, this is the thing. there are LOADS of names who have made worthy contributions to gaming

but as Stewart said, only with one of them could you genuinely make a top-10-games-ever list with nothing but their games
11-12-2005, 02:52 PM
skuzgib

Quote:

Shigeru Miyamoto

Word.
11-12-2005, 03:18 PM
bertie

Don't think anyone could argue with that.
Others may have made more significant single contributions but no-one has been able to match that clever Japanese man
11-12-2005, 04:50 PM
ekundo

i can honestly say i couldnt name a single game designer, i'm too busy playing the things to know their names :S
11-12-2005, 05:06 PM
Agent

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caged

Does CliffyB count as a designer?

I wouldn’t say an all out games designer, but level and graphics designer, yes.
He has created some cracking content. As he's doing what im at uni for, I have a lot of respect for him.
11-12-2005, 05:07 PM
Swafe

Quote:

Originally Posted by skuzgib

Word.

Excel to that, brother !
11-12-2005, 05:11 PM
Deadlight

Quote:

Originally Posted by skuzgib

Word.

WTF?
11-12-2005, 08:20 PM
Aaron

Derek Smart, PhD gets my vote! :D
11-12-2005, 09:08 PM
Odc

Kojima FTW! :p
12-12-2005, 12:39 AM
Stewart

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrivatePyle

But not originality obviously.

Although you are clearly ignorant of the many inovations to game design made by Miyamoto in the Mario games, I should point out that not including the Mario and Zelda series, Miyamoto also had a role in: Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Jr, Donkey Kong 3, Wave Race, Earthbound, F-Zero, Starfox, 1080 Snowboarding, Animal Forrest, F-Zero X, Star Fox 64, Wave Race 64, Yoshi's Story, 1080 Avalanche, Animal Crossing, Donkey Konga, Doshin the Giant, Geist, Kirbys Air Ride, Metroid Prime, Metroid Prime 2, Pacman Vs, Pikmin, Pikmin 2, Wario World, Wave Race: Blue Storm, and many, many more.

As well as that, at Nintendo he was invovled in the design choices that gave us shoulder buttons on control pads and analog control sticks on game pads; original game music, 2D-to-3D game play, and a load of other inovations all owe some of their success in some part to Miyamoto.

In fact, the sheer amount of inovations and little touches in the Mario series alone is a match for any games designers libary of 'originality'. Add Zelda and his other titles, and it is by far the most original and important body of work by any games designer ever.

Apart from that, everything you said was correct. Oh, that's all you said... :D
12-12-2005, 12:59 AM
DavidM

PrivatePyle did mention Jeff Minter... now he is certainly a great character :)
12-12-2005, 02:43 AM
BEANFro Elite

Nope, Miyamoto all the way, he does more than design games, it was him who got me into games in the first place, Darwinia's concept was shamelessly yoinked, Pic-Min anyone? there you have it...

Bow down to the true king of gaming!!

As for the guy who said Oleg Maddox, per-lease!! As much as I love the IL-2 games and believe me I LOVE them, there isn't much scope in Oleg's porfolio to make him worthy of the title of Best Games Designer Ever? Oleg is good, but Miyamoto is THE best :)
12-12-2005, 10:47 AM
Stewart

Quote:

Originally Posted by BEANFro Elite

Nope, Miyamoto all the way, he does more than design games, it was him who got me into games in the first place

As a fellow brother, I knew I could rely on your support. :D

Did someone seriously suggest that the bloke who designed the IL-2 games has done more for video game design than Miyamoto? :D

I hope he's done about 30 other games, all of which have sold in the millions, all of which were released to mass critical acclaim, all of which introduced new features which became standards in their type of game. (Miyamoto has done far more, but his main body of 'famous' work is about this size)

I hope he is regarded as a creative genius in the industry without exception.

I hope people other designers say things like "To me, Miyamoto is like God." about him, like Toshihiro Nagoshi said at a recent E3.

I hope his games are the yardstick to which all other games (of a certain genre) are aiming for.

I hope you could make a credable Top 10 games of all time list using only games he is responsible for.

I hope there is hardly a gamer in the world who hasn't played one of his games.

If not, that claim is looking as thin as Posh Spice on the Atkins diet.
12-12-2005, 11:10 AM
shiato storm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stewart

Who do you reckon?

In this thread I'll make the case for who I think it is, then you can agree, or disagree and make a case for someone else.

Right, lets get on with it then: Its Shigeru Miyamoto. No ifs, no buts. End of thread.

agreed. the man's a legend.

no more need be said. no one else consistantly churns out fantastic games that not only look good but play brilliantly.
12-12-2005, 11:57 AM
axis09

ahh mario kart......still the most fun i have had without a naked chick:bowdown:
12-12-2005, 12:50 PM
Stewart

Quote:

Originally Posted by axis09

ahh mario kart......still the most fun i have had without a naked chick:bowdown:

Exactly. The excitment, pressing the right buttons, wondering if you are going to come second or first... Mario Kart is pretty good as well.

What is most amazing is how is consistently comes back with a game that completely blows the previous effort away, when the previous effort was considered unbelivably good.

Mario Bros comes out, everyone raves about it, its *the* game to play. By the time you get to Mario Bros 3, the original Mario Bros looks like something he knocked together in 10 minutes during a coffee break.

Then comes Mario World, which improves on the gameplay again and you think even someone like Miyamoto has done all he can do, then along comes Mario 64, and it blows everyone away again.

The Zelda series is the same; I mean, the man has taken 2 of the best games ever in their 2D form, and taken both of them into the 3D world, and in doing so creates 2 of the finest video game achivments ever. Both games are crafted to perfection, as if there were several previous 3D Mario and Zelda games to learn from.

This is why I will buy the Revolution. What genuine gamer doesn't want to play the next Mario or the next Zelda?
12-12-2005, 01:25 PM
yamangman

Quote:

Originally Posted by BEANFro Elite

Nope, Miyamoto all the way, he does more than design games, it was him who got me into games in the first place, Darwinia's concept was shamelessly yoinked, Pic-Min anyone? there you have it...

Bow down to the true king of gaming!!

As for the guy who said Oleg Maddox, per-lease!! As much as I love the IL-2 games and believe me I LOVE them, there isn't much scope in Oleg's porfolio to make him worthy of the title of Best Games Designer Ever? Oleg is good, but Miyamoto is THE best :)

Nah have to disagree, I have no time for any japanese titles, the entire mario/zelda series, metal gear, final fantasy. All entirely boring repetitive nonsense.
12-12-2005, 01:28 PM
yamangman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stewart

As a fellow brother, I knew I could rely on your support. :D

Did someone seriously suggest that the bloke who designed the IL-2 games has done more for video game design than Miyamoto? :D

I hope he's done about 30 other games, all of which have sold in the millions, all of which were released to mass critical acclaim, all of which introduced new features which became standards in their type of game. (Miyamoto has done far more, but his main body of 'famous' work is about this size)

I hope he is regarded as a creative genius in the industry without exception.

I hope people other designers say things like "To me, Miyamoto is like God." about him, like Toshihiro Nagoshi said at a recent E3.

I hope his games are the yardstick to which all other games (of a certain genre) are aiming for.

I hope you could make a credable Top 10 games of all time list using only games he is responsible for.

I hope there is hardly a gamer in the world who hasn't played one of his games.

If not, that claim is looking as thin as Posh Spice on the Atkins diet.

If it wasn't him, it'd be someone else. There is no "greatest game designer of all time".
12-12-2005, 01:50 PM
Stewart

Quote:

Originally Posted by yamangman

If it wasn't him, it'd be someone else. There is no "greatest game designer of all time".

Yes there is, its Miyamoto, in my opinion and a lot of others. There is more than enough to go on to say that he has done more than anyone else, created brilliant works time and time again, and just been at the top of his game for such a long time.

Anyway, what is it about Japanese games that you don't like? Also, what games do you like?

Your comment 'If it wasn't him it would be someone else' shows that you clearly haven't played these games you dismiss as boring nonsense. There have been countless attempts to copy what Miyamoto has done with the Mario and Zelda series, yet how many better platformers than the Mario series are there? How many better adventure games than the Zelda series?

If Miyamoto wasn't a games designer, then there simply wouldn't be those sorts of games done that well. This isn't something any average Joe could have done, any more than I could write some Mozart, or you paint a Van Gough.

Seriously, don't dismiss a large collection of the finest video games of all time, designed by the finest video games designer of all time as boring nonsense. Go back and play them again, play them to the end, see all the nice touches, all the clever features, all the perfect level design that makes a Miyamoto game just that little bit more. Then maybe you'll see what 100 million people and mass critical acclaim can't be wrong. :)

As for the other Japanese games you dismiss:

How many better RPGs than the Final Fantasy series? (Which is, by the way, pretty much without exception considered a work of complete genius) Final Fantasy VII is the single greatest RPG ever; only Chrono Trigger is even worthy of being mentioned in the same breath.

How many better action games that the Metal Gear series? Metal Gear Solid on the Playstation was superb, and they have now become as slick and engrossing as a high budget Hollywood movie.

Really, I don't think you can dismiss all of them as nonsense with any sort of credability. Feel free to expand on your opinion though. :)
12-12-2005, 02:07 PM
yamangman

You may well think that, but I'm certain various persons in the industry as a whole over the years contributed to the successes he's had with those titles.

Other than that, I simply don't find the games I metioned enjoyable. Sure I played mario bros way back when on my first NES, but now, to me, they are just infantile games. But other than that, you'd be hard-pressed to find a topic I could strive to care less about.
12-12-2005, 02:49 PM
BEANFro Elite

I must confess, when Miyamoto made all these classic games, I was busy playing the rip-offs and clones inspired by him on the Amiga 500 (Gina Sisters, The New Zealand Story etc.) my point is, even if you've never played his ACTUAL games, you've surely along the way experienced his inventiveness somewhere in your gaming career...Oleg Maddox isn't really in the same ilk as Miyamoto as the IL-2 series, as ownage as they are, are factual games so one only needs the mind to point out whats in real-life that wouldn't hugely detract from the game...

As Stewart pointed out, without him, we'd have no shoulder buttons on controllers, no analogue stick on a controller, no rumble feature on a controller, no light guns, no wireless controller, no concept of console upgradeability...

He IS really amazing, I never say this about anyone but if there was anyone who is amazing it has to be Miyamoto...

How could he not be, even if you hate Japanese flavoured games, his influence is so widespread that in some cases its not even overtly noticeable...

It seems unfair that, someone who has contributed SOOOO much for the cause of gaming cannot be labelled a "gaming god"...

However, the few are no match for the masses and this truly is the case here :)
12-12-2005, 06:22 PM
Deadlight

Quote:

Originally Posted by BEANFro Elite

The New Zealand Story etc.)

I'm pretty sure TNS was a conversion of a Taito coin-op.
12-12-2005, 06:43 PM
smtkr

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stewart

How many better RPGs than the Final Fantasy series? (Which is, by the way, pretty much without exception considered a work of complete genius) Final Fantasy VII is the single greatest RPG ever; only Chrono Trigger is even worthy of being mentioned in the same breath.

I've already admitted to worshipping Miyamoto, but I have trouble swallowing this statement. I've played through 4 FF games and played significant portions of several others and I have trouble calling FFVII the best. I'm not prepared to say it is not the best either. I liked FFVIII almost as much (once I figure out the whole junction system). I guess my point is that while the aggregate of Miyamoto's games distinguish him as the best designer ever, to pick out FFVII as the best RPG of all time is hyperbole.
12-12-2005, 07:09 PM
Spud1

To pick out FFVII as the greatest RPG ever is laughable though tbh. I admit to not being a fan of the series, (although i do like the first few) but how can you even compare it to the likes of baulders gate, Neverwinter nights (easily my fav RPG ever) etc?

Sure it has a great storyline, but gameplay wise..i just find the later FF games boring as hell ;/
12-12-2005, 09:17 PM
Stewart

Well, I'm suprised you lot don't rate FF7 to be honest. I really do think its the best RPG ever, by a long way. Its epic and its slick from the first battle to the weapon fights and Sepiroth right at the end of disc 3. Only Chrono Trigger comes close for me.

I think, in general, a lot of people would agree that FF7 is the yardstick RPG as well. Reviews of the game all tend to agree that FF7 is the best game of a brilliant series.

Its the most fun I've had playing an RPG anyway, and thats the only way I can judge these things.

FF7 is class. And its by far the finest RPG of all time on any system. In my opinion. :)
12-12-2005, 10:24 PM
smtkr

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stewart

Reviews of the game all tend to agree that FF7 is the best game of a brilliant series.

gamespot seems to agree with me, that FFVIII is neck and neck with FFVII. I really like X too. I just can't seem to bring myself to call one a winner (not to mention a host of other RPGs that I liked a lot like A link to the Past, Morrowind, Chrono Trigger, etc.). In fact, now that I've stopped to consider games outside of the series, I would rate the Final Fantasy series the best TURN BASED RPGs, but A link to the Past is the best RPG I've ever played. There, I actually said it.
12-12-2005, 10:58 PM
Stewart

Quote:

Originally Posted by smtkr

gamespot seems to agree with me, that FFVIII is neck and neck with FFVII. I really like X too. I just can't seem to bring myself to call one a winner

GameSpot also say 'Never before have technology, playability, and narrative combined as well as in Final Fantasy VII'

IGN said 'The RPG by which all others are to be measured, FFVII is a cinematic wonder'

Now, even if you think the better games came after, this still shows that both thought pretty much what I said - this is an amazing RPG and the yardstick, so better than all before and likely to be the best for a very long time.

Quote:

In fact, now that I've stopped to consider games outside of the series, I would rate the Final Fantasy series the best TURN BASED RPGs, but A link to the Past is the best RPG I've ever played. There, I actually said it.

Ah. Now there we have our wires crossed a bit. I wasn't considering the Zelda games and the Final Fantasy games to be of the same type. I see Zelda as a fantasy adventure game and Final Fantasy as an RPG.

If you count them as the same type of game then everything you said is correct; Final Fantasy is the best turn-based RPG and a Link to the Past is the best RPG of all.

That has Miyamoto behind it and so has all the little touches and brilliant game design that even Square can't quite match. And Square were as good then as Capcom were when they were giving us Street Fighter II \ Turbo.

Even the always quailty (Well used to be in the case of Capcom) Japanese developers like Capcom and Square can't match the quailty of the big 1st party Nintendo titles. And nor can SEGA, Sony, Microsoft, or anyone else, by the way. (Just to spark another disagreement :D)