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Thread: Roleplaying and RPGs

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    Капраз dkmech's Avatar
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    Roleplaying and RPGs

    I am starting to think that roleplaying is actually quite difficult in rpgs.

    Some are kinda linear - e.g. in wow everyone does the same quests with the same results (even if you get to choose which quest to do when). Only difference is whether the quest giver says "great paladin" or "great mage" when he addresses you... In fact because of all the ganking at questgivers (this was before bgs) and the group hurrying you I've been skipping on the reading of the quests...

    In WOW the role bit of roleplaying is your role in a raid - a healer, a tank, or the one who dies a lot... It's all about the kills and the loot, in varying proportion depending on the player.

    Now thinking of Oblivion which I also play - again the quests are all the same (correct me if i am wrong) and its just the time when you do them that changes. There are some with multiple choices at the end... but half of those still end up in the same place. And the discrepancy in value of rewards forces me to check both routes and save and then pick the "right one", which is the one with biggest reward.

    The whole levelling just gets in the way too. How about instead of the player picking which attributes to raise they are done automatically in a way to suit the playstyle (mages gain more mana, warriors strength, etc), kinda like they did with skills. But remove the numbers completely from the player. In fact - why does the player have to progress that much? Give him better items, more effective and efficient spells - but leave him as a human being.

    As for decisions and choices - of course ideally there'd be wildly diverging paths to take depending on your choices... but who's going to make a game where the player will only see 10% of content...

    Sorry about the disjointed rant... But what do you all think about immersive storylines and roleplaying and the way they are done in rpgs.
    Tough on mirrors, tough on the causes of mirrors.

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    Comfortably Numb directhex's Avatar
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    consider classic roleplaying with a dungeon master - they'll typically be working from a book to give them ideas. an entirely open-ended play lacks any real drive, as without a firm narrative element there's no compulsion to play - a strong story gives you a real sense of purpose, and drives you onwards

    consider two games released at a similar time - morrowind, and baldur's gate 2. BG2 throws you in at the deep end with story from start to finish - sure, you can do things differently, and do them for different reasons. sure, there are hundreds of side quests you can discover. but essentially it's a linear story-based game - and a damn fine one at that

    compare with morrowind, which pops you in town, says "you might wanna go that way", and leaves you to it. i cannot for the life of me stand to play that game - with no sense of purpose, i wander about in a daze before uninstalling.

    the only way to "properly" roleplay is to have someone sitting there actively writing custom stories for you as you go - stories of sufficient calibre to keep your interest. otherwise you've got to make a decision - a decent story which is a bit enclosed (BG2) or a wishy-washy wanderaboutfest (morrowind)

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    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    I find that it largely depends on what the player wants to do.

    Some games, like NWN OC, guild wars are more what I'd call 'power gaming' than 'role playing' - they are based around experience for kills, and leveling up etc.

    Others, like earlier Elderscrolls games can be more about you playing the way you want to play, taking on the role of a character etc.

    Same all quests are the same for oblivion is a bit misleading - the fact is there are hundreds of quests that try to cater for lots of different characters. You can play to just complete as many quests as you like, or you can roleplay a character and choose whether or not to take quests based on what your character would do. Adding a bit of roleplay into games like Morrowind or Oblivion really makes the games come alive. Using your imagination you can create your own quests easily - just because something isn't marked as a quest in your journal and you don't get anything for completing it doesn't mean you can't have goals for your characters.

    On morrowind I had a character that went around freeing slaves - there was no quest for that, it was just acting in character, in oblivion you can do that even more. So forget about the leveling - it's not important in a game like oblivion, just play your character, and the levels/abilities will come by themselves. You already have the game suggesting which skills to increase - the more you use a skill the higher the multiplier - at the same time you aren't forced into following it, so if you want to play by numbers you are free to do that. It's all about player choice with the Elderscrolls games - you can power game, you can role play, you can do both.

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    Truth is that any RPG single-player experience is going to be lacking any *real* role-playing. Let's face it, the best they can do is tell a story and add a few side-quests to give some varied play depending on your character. Why? Because every response has to be pre-programmed and if every deviation resulted in a different story then producers would have to program thousands of different stories.

    The only time you'll ever get real role-playing is when other *people* are involved. Then, of course, you have the problem of power-gamers ruining the experience for true RP'ers.

    There *are* some places out there where you can get a taste of real RP'ing and some are even free.

    The best one for me was The Three Kingdoms which uses the Neverwinter Nights game engine. You can find out about it by going to www.3kds.com. They are *very* RP focused there and powergamers don't get anywhere.

    If you've never experienced character based role-playing then you'll probably be very surprised at just how involved it can be.

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    Comfortably Numb directhex's Avatar
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    for my sins, i rather like being told a story

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    Treasure Hunter extraordinaire herulach's Avatar
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    neverwinter nights is the nearest ive come to proper role playing in a 3d game. other than that some of my best non tabletop rp experiences have been in muds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by directhex
    for my sins, i rather like being told a story
    So do I - it can be a great experience. But being part of a communal story can be even greater.

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    Personally I do prefer the single player RPG's out there. As of late Guild Wars is becoming a bit of a drag with people rushing off and getting the rest of the party killed. This tends to make progress slow and find yourself having to redo the same bits constantly.

    I love the fantasy stories told and taking your character from start to finish. I could never really get away with Baldurs Gate 1 & 2 as I didn't like having to control all 6 characters during combat. However I have just discovered Neverwinter Nights and I am completely addicted to it. Actively searching for quests and going exploring. I am currently on chapter 2 and found some books, didn't think anything on it at all. However, I went to the mage shop in Port Llast and the woman there just happened to give me a quest to retrieve them.

    Once I do get through the single player on NWN I will be getting the 2 expansions I am enjoying it that much. I must admit occasionally the quests arn't overly clear and you have to write things in you journal manually. You sometimes get some specific info that is not in the text for the quest but other than that it is a great game.

    I havn't played Oblivion for a few month now. Got a bit bored with closing all the Oblivion gates outside the towns, thankfully I only have a 2 more to do now. So far I have Reached the top of the Mages Guild, Fighters Guild and halfway through the Dark Brotherhood quests. I will go back to it as it is exceptionally good and does have a decent story. I am around level 25 on it if my mind serves me right and I have played for around 80 hours.

    Dungeon Siege was decent enough when it was released and was the game that lured me away from NWN. It did actually have a party of 6 but I found the control a lot easier as the NPC's actually done their own thing. All you had to do was select a formation and they done what was required. However it was extremely linear start to finish and once you left one area it was quite difficult to actually get back to it. I remember thinking I would go back and clear a valley after I had delivered something to an outpost beside a mine. That didn't work out though, once I got to the outpost I couldn't actually go back and complete the quest in the valley.

    A really unsung RPG that I enjoyed was Planescape Torment. Lo and behold it was another Bioware game. Planescape lured me in with its strange story and some decent characters. Your companion the voodoo style skull had me in stitches at times. I never actually got round to finishing it though. I still have it bundled away in a box somewhere, might actually stick it back on after getting through NWN.

    I agree with Hexeh on Morrowind, I done exactly the same thing. I really don't like it when a game feels like it has no structure at all right from the start. That is the same reason why I dont like the GTA games.

    All in all I think a lot of people play RPG's for the decent stories and fantasy settings. In general the pace is a bit slower than the action titles out there like the shooters and not forgetting the action RPG's like Titan Quest, Guild Wars and Diablo.

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    It seems strange to me now, as I have played Oblivion more than 80 hrs, & my character never seems to level up!! I am still in level 15. Finished the main quest & I am half way through the Dark Brotherhood & Mage guild quests.

    Is there in any work arounds so I can level up faster!!

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    It seems strange to me now, as I have played Oblivion more than 80 hrs, & my character never seems to level up!! I am still in level 15. Finished the main quest & I am half way through the Dark Brotherhood & Mage guild quests.

    Is there in any work arounds so I can level up faster!!

    Sorry for reposting... My connection is very erratic. Couldn't delete this post. So any MODs pls delete this post!!
    Last edited by deathknight; 24-08-2006 at 09:21 AM.

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    This is exactly what I am talking about - deathknight is concerned about levelling up - there shouldn't be any cause for such concern! There shouldn't be any levelling. In fact I feel that shooters are sometimes in a better position to tell a story - all you care about there is doing what needs to be done, not about whether another point will be added to some arbitrary number and will make you shoot straighter.

    I am really looking forward to Stalker in that respect. Yes you'll progress by getting better items, but you will become more accurate because you personally learned to control the weapons better, and not the computer made your reticule tighter (god how i hated the neocron demo - who says i can't shoot a rat from 3 feet away ffs!). You'll also know more about the zone and its inhabitants with time - it won't be +50 mana for no reason.

    The oblivion system isn't too bad, but it requires a lot of discipline not to run everywhere jumping and casting spells all the time... It distracts from the game, and yet your enemies scale with you so its a futile effort at the same time...
    Tough on mirrors, tough on the causes of mirrors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deathknight
    It seems to strange to me that I hav played Oblivion more than 80hrs & my character seems to be very slow in leveling up. I am in level 15!! I just finished the main quest & I am halfway through Dark brotherhood & Mage guild quests.
    Is there any work arounds for faster leveling up!!
    Well if you have acrobatics, sneak or nondestructive magics in your selected main skills you can keep using them to level quicker - go everywhere sneaking jumping and casting spells. But you'll look a right fool...
    Tough on mirrors, tough on the causes of mirrors.

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    Comfortably Numb directhex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkmech
    Well if you have acrobatics, sneak or nondestructive magics in your selected main skills you can keep using them to level quicker - go everywhere sneaking jumping and casting spells. But you'll look a right fool...
    http://www.progressquest.com/

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    Half the fun with RPG's is actually building up youre character. On NWN I am a Dwarven Barbarian. I have decided though to add points into non class specific attributes which makes gameplay a little different and more individual / personalised. I havn't actually chosen a 2nd class at the minute but there is nothing stopping you from adding points to things like heal, lockpicking and disarming traps.

    It is also quite rewarding taking a fight to a stronger more powerful creature, you may only do a few points of damage and find yourself using quite a few healing potions but fight through. After about 20 mins of swiping at the creature you finally kill it, yeah at times when this does happen it can be quite tedious waiting for the critical hits to make a connection. It is all worthwhile though in the long run.

    With Bioware using the Dungeons and Dragons 3rd edition rules on NWN the weapons are all done the same as tabletop versions of the game. Using dice type characteristics for saving throws and attacks etc

    This is the closest thing you will actually get without having to invite a load of friends round and setting up a game with character sheets then making the decisions off the top of your head. Even using the figures if you feel that way inclined to bulk out the playing experience.

    What you also need to think on is how long it actually takes to create a game. You have all the voice acting, a huge world to create, items and treasure and not forgetting the heroes and villians. Then you have to build up the control and command interfaces. It is a vision that is created by developers and passed onto us to experience in our own individual way.

    When you also consider how long it actually takes to get through a RPG compared to a shooter or platformer. I clocked PREY in around 6 hours, Unreal 2 in about 8, Jedi Knight 2 also in around 8. To be fair it took a bit longer to get through Half Life 2, FEAR and Doom 3 but the overall scope is still not as big as said RPG. To get through Diablo 2 and its expansion you can be looking at around 25 hours if you explore, Dungeon Siege took me around 29 hours, Guild Wars Prophecies took around 112 hours and like I have already mention Oblivion with 80 hours and about halfway through it. Finally going back to Neverwinter Nights I have played now for around 15 hours so far. I have explored everywhere thoroughly only missing one or two side quests due to not reading the journal properly and getting locked out. Castle in the haunted wood for example where you have to summon the demon belial, I left the castle and then realised I couldn't get back in if you leave once judgement has been passed.

    A lot of it comes down to personal taste when it comes to gaming, I personally find that the more you put into a RPG the more you will get out of it. I was left feeling quite empty and not really achieving anything at the end of Half Life 2, one of the reasons I didn't buy the episode one expansion. When I finished Guild Wars though it really felt like I had acomplished my quest to stop the evil. I still go back to Prophecies occasionally just for a wander about and take in the scenery.

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    Treasure Hunter extraordinaire herulach's Avatar
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    actually having said that, one good example does spring to mind, and that was KOTOR 1&2, despite the fact that i couldnt get KOTOR 2 to give me a second class because it crashed everytime i got near the trigger point, i really enjoyed both, and there was actually a degree of roleplaying involved.

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    How about this for an oddball example: a game in which you get to play a modern day soldier - a small but significant cog in the war machine, with awesome immersion, a story line, a and while the quest progression is linear,the way you go about doing those quests is up to you to a great extent.

    Can you guess what it is?
    Operation Flashpoint
    Highlight the above line to find out.
    Tough on mirrors, tough on the causes of mirrors.

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