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Thread: Londoners- Ken Livingstone wants your input

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    Now with added sobriety Rave's Avatar
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    Londoners- Ken Livingstone wants your input

    Yes, he's consulting on the proposal to charge 'gas guzzlers' £25 a day to drive about in the congestion charging zone. Here's my helpful input:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rave's considered response
    The congestion charge should be just that- a congestion charge. Arbitrarily charging people who drive cars that according to some arcane government formula emit more CO2 is nothing more than nasty, ill-informed bullying.

    I don't know if you were all deprived of a decent education in science at school- if you were, I deeply sympathise. I was lucky enough to be properly educated, so here's an explanation of how the process of causing CO2 pollution works. To create CO2, you have to burn fuel. Fuel for cars- both diesel and petrol- is already very heavily taxed. If you want to have a completely fair system where everyone is taxed according to the pollution they produce, then clearly we need to scrap road tax and increase the duty on petrol and diesel even more- this could easily be 'revenue neutral' for the government.. That way everyone pays for the CO2 they produce, and everyone has an incentive to drive less, and drive a more fuel efficient car when they do drive.

    Under your proposed system, someone who keeps an old Range Rover to tow a caravan three times a year gets stung for £25 each time they move their car whereas someone with a Toyota Prius who tools about all over the shop every day, driving their kids 800 yards to school, and then going shopping when they could eaily walk, pays nothing at all, even though they're creating far more pollution.

    As it happens, I've never had cause to pay the congestion charge because I've never needed to drive around in Central London during the day, and my vehicle of choice for driving around in the suburbs is either a diesel supermini that does 45 MPG+ or a motorcycle that does 65 MPG+. I just felt moved to respond because I think that your proposal is total idiocy, with no basis in logic or scientific fact.
    You can also have your say here:

    http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/corporate/...7/default.aspx

    ...and I'd encourage you to do so. Democracy in action and all that.

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    Re: Londoners- Ken Livingstone wants your input

    have done....you do realise they don't read these things though?
    sig removed by Zak33

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    Senior Member JPreston's Avatar
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    Re: Londoners- Ken Livingstone wants your input

    You're correct on economic principles only to the extent that CO2 emissions have global effect, so it is irrelevant where the fuel is burnt.

    However the effect on particle emissions, noise pollution, pedestrian safety etc are all localised externalities. Also the mayor of london could not actually end road fund licence, or set national fuel duty to an appropriate level to charge for the externalities of fuel burnt within the congestion charging zone (and nor would this level of fuel duty be uniformly appropriate to the rest of the country). So basically hammering 4x4s by increased congestion charge is the only measure available to the mayor, and it is not as inappropriate as measure as first glance migth suggest
    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand Russell

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    Re: Londoners- Ken Livingstone wants your input

    Come on, Rave. Stop sitting on the fence and tell him what you really think.

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    Senior Amoeba iranu's Avatar
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    Re: Londoners- Ken Livingstone wants your input

    If Ken is for it then my automatic default position is against whatever he is proposing. I echo Rave's post it's far more sensible. Jpreston makes a very good point with regard to pollutants, however, I think that the more you drive the more you pollute with regard to particulates. A good idea would be to give heavy discounts to cars that use the PZEV technology, which was discussed on these forums here.

    One of the problems with hammering people who own vehicles emitting X amount of CO2 is that it penalises people with large families or people that want to tow.

    Ken is a very nasty, pernicious little man who has a very large chip on his shoulder with regards to the middle and monied classes. He loves nothing more than to extract financial revenge on such people. The environment is the perfect cover for increasing taxation. The "congestion charge" has not achieved it's aim. Boris for Mayor!
    "Reality is what it is, not what you want it to be." Frank Zappa. ----------- "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." Huang Po.----------- "A drowsy line of wasted time bathes my open mind", - Ride.

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    Senior Member charleski's Avatar
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    Re: Londoners- Ken Livingstone wants your input

    My first thought is that anyone who can afford to park a caravan in Belgravia can also afford the £25 for a Range Rover to pull it.

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    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
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    Re: Londoners- Ken Livingstone wants your input

    Its so very strange that hybrid cars are exempt from this fee.

    First off, they pollute, they cost a lot environmentally to make, and aren't designed to be bio-degradable (i belive the smart car is now made with some organic plastic or something clever).

    Now last time i checked, this was a congestion charge, desgined to tax people out of london during peek hours (the idea is because not everyone can go in at once, we charge a fee to make only the most important journies possible).

    How does environmental issues get on with this?

    In my mind, it should be the length of your car, rather than how many wheel drive.

    This, like most things that are environmentally friendly is bollocks, its all fair trade coffee.
    throw new ArgumentException (String, String, Exception)

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    Now with added sobriety Rave's Avatar
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    Re: Londoners- Ken Livingstone wants your input

    Bah- I should know better than to go drinking and replying to public consultations. Never mind, a bit of rudeness probably is justified in this instance.

    IMO JPreston, most recent cars emit few enough nasty chemicals like oxides of nitrogen/sulphur etc. that the difference between large and small cars is pretty trivial. I'm sure that my old diesel Clio emits more nasties than, say, a V8 mk3 Range Rover and yet it'd be charged less. Again, it's a fairly arbitrary distinction. Of course I'm aware that Livingstone has no power to set fuel duty levels, but so what? He could ask the chancellor. I daresay he'd have a bit more influence than you or I. And whether he succeeds or not, two wrongs don't make a right.

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    Ғо ѕніzzLє му піzzLє chicken's Avatar
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    Re: Londoners- Ken Livingstone wants your input

    Bring in Boris! Then we can all ride around town on pollution free space hoppers!!
    1.21 GIGAWATTS!!!!!

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    Re: Londoners- Ken Livingstone wants your input

    The problem is that the charges are a very nice little earner, and levied upon people who 'can afford it'. It's been so successful in subsidising London that other cities, and even towns, are considering following suit. It's not about pollution, it is about congestion, but it's more about money.

    (Thanks Evilmunky)
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    Senior Member JPreston's Avatar
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    Re: Londoners- Ken Livingstone wants your input

    Quote Originally Posted by Rave View Post
    I'm aware that Livingstone has no power to set fuel duty levels, but so what? He could ask the chancellor.
    No, because setting fuel duty at a level appropriate to discourage driving in central london would put it at an inappropriate level for the rest of the country.

    A localised charge is exactly what is required to deliver a targetted disincentive to drive within a specific highly congested, polluted and populated area. The economic principles behind the congestion charge genuinely are sound, you can only object to it on political grounds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand Russell

    The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.

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    Re: Londoners- Ken Livingstone wants your input

    Quote Originally Posted by chicken View Post
    Bring in Boris! Then we can all ride around town on pollution free space hoppers!!
    Bah boris wants to ban the bendy bus now

    would mean no more free fares on the 149

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