Could this be? there now suspects! what are your guys thoughts about this never ending case?
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Could this be? there now suspects! what are your guys thoughts about this never ending case?
I've had suspicions since this whole thing started. If this happened to one of my kids for example me and my wife would be in serious trouble for neglect etc and we would suffer the consequences. You don't leave children in an apartment in a foreign country whatsoever, every parent knows this.
Thing is though these 2 have got away with that side of things and a media circus has been created. Way I see it is one of two reasons, first one is that their daughter has genuinely been kidnapped or possibly worse (I really hope she is still alive and ok somewhere) and the parents are wanting her back. Secondly though which is what I've been thinking for a while now is that they have something to do with it and have created this whole media circus to take the whole worlds eyes off them.
It is hard to believe they have anything to do with the disappearance of Madeline. I hope they find the girl alive somewhere. Maybe the Police are clutching at straws? Time will tell i suppose.
i said all along they should both have been arrested and charged over this. the police are halfway there at last.
about time they pulled the plug on the free round the world trip the parents seem to be on.
I honestly don't know what to make of this... One minute you see the Parents squakking on tv for their Kid, next minute they are jetting off to meet the Pope, what's that all about? while they are staging tearful walks along the beach, I always think, "what about your other kids? Where are they? what sort of effect is this having on them, also they are happy to accept Money for their Find Maddy Fund, how is that going to help apart from attracting weirdos and timewasters.... what is that Money being used for, like I say, don't know, just get the feeling that something dodgy is going on
And even if they aren't guilty of killing her they are guilty of neglect certainly, you don't leave 3 small Children alone asleep at night on Holiday or otherwise...
I still think it's far to early in the latest developments to jump to conclusions, let alone to be calling for arrest or charges. That should ONLY take place if the evidence supports it.
Bear in mind that almost everything we hear beyond the fact that both parents have been re-interviewed and Mrs McCann declared "arguida" is speculation .... because the police will say nothing much more than that, and aren't allowed to do so.
There is speculation that Mrs McCanns re-interview and change in legal status is linked to the results from forensic tests. But even if that is the case, and it is currently still just speculation, being declared arguida does NOT necessarily mean the police think she did it. It simply means she's a suspect and questions can then be put that otherwise couldn't be. It also works in her favour, because it affords her protections (like the presence of a lawyer) that she wouldn't have as a witness.
Much the same sort of principle applies in the UK. You can be interviewed as a witness, but as soon as police consider you a suspect, you should be cautioned and at that point, you have a right to legal representation, etc. The details of the change in legal status in Portugal and the UK are, so far as I can tell, a bit different, but the principle involved is identical.
Oh, and Robert Murat was declared arguido ages ago, but still hasn't been charged ..... and even being charged doesn't mean someone's guilty. So if he's arguido and she's arguida, which of them did it? It seems unlikely it's both.
Mrs McCann should NOT be tried either in the court of the international media, or that of public opinion, especially when both are being fuelled by speculation, innuendo and accusation, and beggar-all actual fact. If the evidence is there for an arrest, trial and conviction, great - fry her ass. But if not, and as yet we simply don't know, then she ought to be given the benefit of the doubt. After all, she may still be innocent, at least of anything more than leaving her kids alone for brief periods, and if innocent, has certainly been through a horrible ordeal with Maddy's disappearance. So, my attitude is that until such time as she's charged, tried and convicted, I'm not going to leap to conclusions ...... either way.
Agreed. But if comments from other participants are accurate as reported, then :-Quote:
Originally Posted by shelley bda
1) The apartment was within their view from the restaurant.
2) Of the group the McCanns were part of, one member of the group checked on the kids every 10 minutes or so, on a rota.
It's still not exactly satisfactory, but nor is it as if they put the kids to bed and went out for several hours leaving them unattended.
Moreover, did it make any difference to the risk the kids were at? If they'd been in the next room watching TV, and someone broke in through a window, it's conceivable Maddy would still have been abducted. Is leaving the kids unattended in one room while you're watching TV, or asleep in bed yourself, less safe than a 10-minute rotating checkup?
Can you imagine the backlash, if something like this turned out to be true?
I was in the back of a cab on the way back from the airport the other day, and there was a 'find madeline' poster, the one where all the O's are drawn to look like her eye with the freaky bit. You get all those working class people :D on your side, and they find out they've been duped, you won't last the week.
I'd hope if someone broke in through a window I'd hear them from the next room, if not the breaking glass I would expect some sort of noise that would make me want to check. Would you hear that from a restaurant?
I'd just like to be clear that I'm not saying that the McCanns had anything to do with it, I just think it's about time that the awkward questions were asked. The redtops appear to have decided that they couldn't possibly be negligent parents (which I personally think they are - as Shelley said where are the other 2 kids while this media circus has been ongoing?) because they have respectable jobs etc. I suspect a wind change sometime soon (not read the papers this morning yet, so this may already have happened)
Readers of Private Eye will have seen the relentless demonisation of Robert Murat, following his request to be made a suspect (for the increased rights this confers over a witness).
Now that Kate McCann has been (unwillingly) made a suspect, I wonder if the tabloids will have us burning her in effigy by the end of the weekend?
If it involved breaking the glass, maybe. But if it involved forcing the frame open? Or using glass-cutters?Quote:
Originally Posted by Splash
Or ... if you were watching an action movie, would you hear it? Or if you were using headphones so as to not disturb the kids?
All I'm saying is that we shouldn't leap to too many conclusions without having the facts, rather than media reports where an overt absence of hard fact is filled by rumour, speculation, potentially distorted third-hand snippets and, quite possibly, an element of outright fabrication.
I hear what your saying and if that was the case then i'd find sympathy for them from somwhere, as it is I have found it hard to sympathise with either parent, despite being a parent myself and working with small Children and their families... what does that say about me? of course I want the little Girl found one way or another to give the Family closure but that's it. I think making the decision to go out for dinner, drinks or whatever and leaving your Kids alone in potential danger is something you can't comapre with being in the next room with or falling asleep...Quote:
Originally Posted by Saracen
Also, if the McCanns were on the dole/ single parents/ drugtakers and they went out and left the kids unattended then what would the media say then?
I agree ..... but what if the McCanns had been at home, having a barbecue with 6 or 8 friends, and they were in the back garden while the kids were asleep in a bedroom that faced the front of the house? Does the fact that they were 100 yards down the road, within clear sight of the apartment, mean the kids were at higher risk than if they'd been having that barbie? What risk would the kids have been at during that notional barbie?Quote:
Originally Posted by shelley bda
My point ..... quite where do you draw the line? According to press accounts, Mrs McCann checked on the kids twice within an hour or so, and two or three other members of the group checked the kids in-between those visits.
If, as appears to be the case, the McCanns could see the apartment, and the kids were checked on every 10-15 minutes (by one of the group), is what they did so wildly unreasonable? I agree that it shouldn't have, but in terms of the risk the kids were exposed to .... well, if this is a stranger-predator abduction, it's VERY hard to totally protect kids from it. It strikes me as the kind of thing many people could have done, especially in the context of a relaxed attitude at a quiet, sleepy holiday resort where, according to locals, this kind of event is (or at least was) unheard-off.
Technically, it's "According to Mrs McCann's account"....Quote:
Originally Posted by Saracen
There was a TV interview I saw a few days ago with one of the others at the restaurant. I don't remember which TV news, or the name of the person, which was why I phrased it in an open fashion. But it was more than just her account.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPreston
Yes for sure; and Jerry McCann also and so on. I was just pointing out that there are no objectively verified accounts of what went on when who went back alone to do what. Since both parents are now suspects, this casts a new light on much of what has been reported to date.
The kids should never ever have been left on thier own!! Just so the parents can go out and have a drink etc!! That is terrible parenting! They should be charged for neglect anyway!!
Excellent post. I couldn't have put it better myself. Just had a good chat with the old man and he says that in Britain the parents would have been the first people questioned under caution. Imho the whole campaign and publicity appeal was a bad mistake. It can't have helped the investigation. If she was alive she'd have been found by now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saracen
Well, there may be objective and verified accounts ...... but neither the public nor the press have them, and I know my comments are based on nothing more than media accounts which may or may not be either accurate, comprehensive or representative, and I rather suspect that everything else said on here is too.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPreston
The Portuguese police seem to have come in for a fair bit of stick for not keeping us (i.e. not keeping the press) better informed. Personally, I'm wholly in favour of the police doing their job largely in secret, at least while the investigation is active. It is, IMHO, without a doubt far better than the tendency in the UK (and many other countries) for more or less hourly updates on what they're up to. The public, and especially the press, in the UK seem to think they have a right to more-or-less real-time status updates on the progress of the police.
To my mind, the purpose of an investigation is to find out what happened, apprehend and present those believed to be guilty for dealing with by due process of law. It isn't to feed the salacious appetites or expectations of 24/7 news channels. The police certainly need to be held accountable for their actions (or lack thereof) but NOT via a blow-by-blow account.
That's why, though I don't support the McCanns decision (as reported) to leave the kids and go out, in the absence of detailed facts about exactly what happened, it's difficult to draw much in the way of conclusions because we don't know if their decision to go out would have made any difference at all to what happened to Maddy. If, repeat IF (as those reports suggest) the apartment was in plain sight and the kids were checked up on every 10-15 minutes, then my point is simply that they may have been at no higher risk than in some of the other scenarios I've suggested, like the barbie or when the parents are asleep themselves.
Until (and if) we know what happened, I don't think demonising the McCanns, even for leaving the kids, is justified, and certainly not on the basis of what is, as you so correctly point out, not objectively verified accounts. I'd rather wait for facts .... then castigate them, if it's justified.
Whatever the facts are we've just got a horrible situation, we've either got parents who have lost a small kid and are being investigated as suspects, or something that i couldn't bear, parents who have been milking a huge amount of publicity when they are the culprits.
All i hope is that we get this case resolved one way or another soon, I personally hope the parents have nothing to do with it as i'd feel sick that so much has been made of this that it would harm any future situations where young children have been "snatched"
TiG
Thanks. As I understand it, statistics show that in these kinds of cases, it OFTEN comes down to someone known to the victim. It's by no means a cast-iron rule, but stranger murders/abductions are, as I understand it, relatively rare. Therefore, any self-respecting police officer ought to be at the very least considering the relatives as potential suspects.Quote:
Originally Posted by iranu
I also rather suspect your old man is right, and that an interview under caution would have followed very promptly here. But .... different countries have different systems and legal frameworks. We do not, for instance, have the sort of investigative magistrate that many, including several European, countries do.
As I understand it, under the Portuguese system, police will interview those believed to be non-suspects without caution precisely because it is a less formalised environment and because the interviewee has less rights and protections. It is, presumably, therefore a quicker way of getting a high volume of facts/accounts in a short period of time, as opposed to everyone "lawyering up", as most people (certainly including me) would do if cautioned in the UK, or treated as an arguido. It also gives them a chance to get people on the record with statements that, once given legal representation,they may not make, and that, once made, are hard to refute and impossible to unmake.
Personally, if caught up in something like this in the UK, and if I had the faintest suspicion I was considered as a potential suspect, I'd be saying very little at all without legal representation, even as a witness. And as soon as I detected a faint whiff of questions I didn't like the tone of, I'd be saying zip without representation.
I would, in fact, adopt much the stance that Robert Murat did (or seems to have done) which is that I'll cooperate fully provided I'm getting competent legal advice. Until then, nada.
They have raised an astonishing amount of money from well wishers and famous people.
David Beckham, Simon Cowell both put in over £100,000 to keep them in portugal and pay for the campain to find her.
Are they to be tried for fraud aswell?
The only thing that suprises me is with the complete lack of emotion shown by the parents the police didn't think this way sooner.
Whether they did it or not, they are not fit to look after children!
I have to say I've found the monetary aspect rather disturbing as well. In the immediate aftermath of the event there was a good reason for a high-profile campaign to encourage any witnesses to come forward. But the opportunity to gather useful leads has long-since passed, and since then the campaign has become a little self-indulgent, though obviously it's hard to criticise a family hit by such a tragedy.
As for the forensic tests that appear to lie at the bottom of the current turn of events, it's not unusual for parents to share genetic markers with their children...
I think they did it, and i always thought that. I would definatly not be suprised if the child was made up and never existed. They have recived a stupid amount of money and seem to be after the publicity more than finding their child.
however how can anyone say it is neglect for a 4year old child to be left for a few hours whilst asleep. can you say your parents never left you for a short time whilst you were sleeping? becuase i bet they did.
The fact they say they checked on her every 10 mins sounds very suspicious to me - why should they need to?
If this were a younger child, then i would agree. I have no idea how old their other children are, so this might be why people say neglect...
Walked into Sainsbury's today to see the Sun running with a picture of the mother and the headline "You killed Maddie" or something to that effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPreston
Makes me ashamed to be a journalist sometimes, the sensationalism they come up with.
Their twins are younger than Madeline iirc. We shouldn't judge the parents too harshly, they made a mistake leaving their kids unsupervised and it goes without saying that they are paying for it, in the worst possible way.
The idea that either of her parents killed her or had a hand in her abduction, to me seems absurd. To level such an accusation without even knowing the couple at all is ridiculous. You can't judge them by what little information we have and without hard evidence, nor should you. This is just speculation.
As for as pictures of the couple looking a little sour, its understandable. They must be sick to the stomach losing their child and a harsh, critical, invasive media presence must be very difficult to deal with. In addition to all that, a bunch of tabloid readers are now ready to string them up for murdering their own child.
well, they did want publicity in the first place... if it turns invasive harsh and critical of them, its then their own fault for chosing that method to start with.
police ALWAYS have to consider nastier motives with a childs disapearance.
i hope its not true - but it could be
Assuming you mean they were actively involved in the disappearance of their daughter, then I have to say this is the stupidest post I have seen since I joined these forums. On what evidence (that you've apparently seen in advance) should they have been charged?Quote:
Originally Posted by GoNz0
The only thing that's struck me as odd is their seemingly over-use of the media. Almost like they're trying too hard to cover something up. I've said it myself a few weeks after Maddy's disappearance, but didn't think much of it. Then again it could just be guilt that they left their children alone, only checking up on them rather than being in the apartment.
Have to say though, there's nothing that any of us know which leads us to believe that the parents are guilty of anything other than possible neglect. All they are at the moment is suspects. Frankly half of Europe have been suspected since she went missing. It's just that the police are now officially looking at things.
They had lost their child and they were desperate. They would have done anything to get her back and the publicity must have seemed like a good idea at the time. Its worth noting that if you murdered your own child, you probably wouldnt want publicity.Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentDeath
How is it their fault that a bunch of money grabbing newspapers, interested only in selling more copies, have siezed upon this familys personal tragedy in order to suit their own agenda. Hmm not much news of sightings lately... i know lets write some sensationalist, speculative bs so we can flog a few more copies (thats the Portugese media and our own).
Intresting no one has taken this view of the situation.
assumption: None of us are well placed to make insightful judgements on this.
so, we make assumptions based on probability.
Odds are, that as i recall them claiming their daughter was abducted in a 30 minuite interval, whilst they where only seconds down the street. Now high likely is that? For that to be the case someone would probably have to be watching, did they leave the door open, how did the person get in? Its either negligence leaving the door open or letting the kid wander down to find the parents, or someone had already been coveting the young girl.
Now there are plenty of people around who stalk, but odds are with this type of thing its someone who knows the child (enless its a serial type) who was there in the forign country, which would sugest pre-meditation. This is rather un likely.
Or the parents did it, and lied to cover it up, given how rampant child abuse is (compared to abudction) this is by far the most likely option.
Ok, so its been a while since I read much criminal physcology, the assumptions might be a little wrong, but on odds allone, i'd have to say its most likely the parents, don't ya think?
You have no way of knowing that these accusations were not born out of some sort of fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by steve threlfall
Are they guilty of murder. The simple fact is, none of us know.
Are they guilty of neglect. Most certainly.
Had they been a working class couple social services would at this stage be re-homing thier other 2 kids.
Could it not all be possible aswell that the pulicity that they were part of and the whole campain to find maddy might not of been so they could say 'we wouldn't have done that if we were guilty now would we'
On the other hand mabee they are in denial, and the longer they kept telling everybody she was taken and is still out there somewhere the more they themseves might bellive it?
With the way the portugese police are handling this investigation we may never know the truth to any of the questions still un answered.
I'm sick of it to be honest. The whole did they didnt they, who did it mallarky.
Some kid goes missing on holiday, people holding out hope for over a month yet when no ransom (AFAIK) was produced the child (to me) is presumed dead/raped/abused/ a pick'n'mix of the previous choices.
Parents blame an 'innocent mistake'.
Yet no-one seems to be worried (not still front page anyway) about the state of child abuse in the UK when one kid goes missing in Europe, while thousands of children (more than likely a lot more) are being abused on a regular basis in the UK (according to the NSPCC)
Maddie....alive or dead, could be anywhere in the world if the abductee (if one exists) wanted to.... seems a bit sad to still try and delay the inevitable dissapointment.
My opinion.... <link removed - that's entirely unacceptable language on here, Finlay - Saracen> pretty much sums it up really for me.
Could have been desperate wannabe parents. Very unlikely I know, but then I've no idea how stringent the adopting policies are in Portugal, or if they even exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by finlay666
Generally though I agree that it's safe to say, sad as it is, that Madeleine McCann is dead.
Fair point there, although it would appear a little too opportunistic for a snatch and run like has been claimed for someone wanting to adopt IMO
......First thing I thought of was there but for the grace of god..Quote:
It strikes me as the kind of thing many people could have done, especially in the context of a relaxed attitude at a quiet, sleepy holiday resort where, according to locals, this kind of event is (or at least was) unheard-off.
The suspicion that the parents had anything to do with it is very remote. If mrs Mcann had accidently done something the grief would be devastating. Few would be able to function through such imeadiate emotion. The imeadiate reaction would be to scream for help. The second would be to punish your self. Saving your own skin is really way down the list for a parent...
*Zak edit, cos frankly, Brucelles, I'm shocked. Please don't post such things again...please.
Thanks*
We don't really need the gutter press here do we? We can crucify them ourselves.
OK Zak. But let me say it differently.
Leave these people alone. They have oceans of grief and loads of you lot can't wait to compete with the Sun to get the accusations and innuendo in first. I have no reason to believe them guilty of anything but a mistake, and neither do any of you. Have a little humanity.
Zak edit: muuuuuuch better post. I knew what you meant but the language was nasty! Thanks for not taking offense and my removal of your post and for still joining in.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Smith
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Condit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O.J._Simpson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JonBen%C3%A9t_Ramsey
just saying, suspicion isn't entirely unreasonable
To echo some of the points above, we simply do not possess enough publicly-known facts about the case to make an informed judgement. That of course, supposes the Portuguese authorities actually have any firm evidence at all.
In most investigations the parents would be suspects regardless but the little I've learned from reading/watching the endless coverage of this utterly tragic event I would be very surprised if her parents were actually involved - that's not to say they weren't - just my impression at the moment. However, I keep an open mind and await further evidence to be made public.
I am not - and have not been from the start - impressed by the standard of investigation by the Portuguese police.
Nasty case in the end only the media is getting something out of it, seems to be getting worse now as even non British and Portuguese media are giving way more attention to the case ever since the McCanns were declared arguidos.
Its incredible the amount of speculation going around in the media, the information flow between the Portuguese police and the general media is very restricted but everyday a new theory is presented and seriously for all I can see they are all based in information and clues that they say the police might and I repeat might have.
Regarding the arguidos status it will simply provide the judicial background for Portuguese police to approach the McCanns more directly plus giving the McCanns the necessary legal protection. The information that leaded the police to this action is reserved to them and it’s completely irresponsible for media to speculate on it especially considering the levels of officially released information.
I recon they played some part. It was a an accident more so than intentional imo. you asked for our thoughts so we are allowed to give them, and make assumptions. I thought they did it from day 1, and so do alot of other people, now why is that? Its because of the way they have acted, its weird, it comes across dodgy.
> they are missing a child yet they go out there way to sue a television company
> why the hell are they going to the pope? when they can try help with the case
> as said above, not a single mention of the other kids.. Why
> time frame and lack of confidence in the portugese leads me to think it could quite easily have been them
> why would someone pick this girl in a resort when if u wanted to get a kid u can find alot quiet places
> why no ransom rob body, fairly rare imo especially with the high status of this case
It looks to me that the parents are likely to be involved; normally I would keep it to myself since in general, opinions are based in personal assumptions and for all I know many of us might be doing a massive injustice with the parents. Still I just find the general behaviour of the parents unnatural to the situation.
Since day one they had a very smart understandable use of the media and were quick to gather the necessary attention to the case, still sometimes it felt that there was far too much effort from the parents to pass a “good “ image about themselves to the media and general opinion. They also seemed very keen to use their comments to reinforce any beneficial points (to themselves) found in either the investigation or the general media opinion of the case.
Plus statistics in this sort of case point to either family or friends considering they were in a foreigner country its only natural to consider they were involved
It was obviously the Scientologists. Or maybe the Movementarians. Or that bloke down the chip shop who swears he's Elvis.
Not a single person that has posted on this thread has enough information to make a remotely informed opinion of who did what in this case. Yet judgments are abound. Thank god kangaroo courts are not legally binding.
I have just checked the statistics. If this were America the chance of the mother being involved would be about 8%. Not really worth pillorying her over.
Another one that really does scare me is that the number of missing children increased by 468% between 1992 and 2000 (USA). So the streets really are a lot more dangerous now than they were when my daughter was born. Ploughing through all of the police figures it looks as though the increase is partly due to an increase in "no idea" disappearances, and mainly due to kidnapping.
I think the McCanns are very likely just getting a bum deal.
I should clarify, although the numbers have increased, they are still not high. If family kidnappings (mainly mothers reclaiming kids from estranged fathers) and 'elopements' are excluded, the American Justice Department reckon that there are only 115 stereotypical kiddy kidnappings per year in the whole USA.
Well said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucelles
Why is every 2nd poster in this thread pretending to be the bloke from Cracker? You know nothing, probably less than nothing. Yet you all know it was the parents, you all know hoe likely and unlikely this is.
You know nowt. Shush until the police make an arrest,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewart
Whether they are guilty or not they are still responcible.
Leaving 3 children alone in a strange country while you go to the resturant in a hotel?
I don't think they killed maddy accidental or other wise, i certainly think they are unfit parents and had they both been working class would have already been investigated by social services.
When I was a child I use to play outside with other kids in the street and fields, while my parents were indoors. Did your parents never let you out to play? were you never out of sight from them?
If you were, do you think your parents neglected you.... and should be prosecuted.
From my recollection the kids who were never allowed to come out and play were weird along with
their families. I am just glad I grew up in the 80's
You played out alone when you where 3? - i don't think so.
TiG
Trial set for track death parents
Parents have been brought to trial in the past (in the UK).
I'd like to thank Brucelles for redoing his post, not getting the arse with me for deleting a lot of the first one, AND carrying on in the thread :)
S! sir.
I'd just like to throw my own bit into the ring, after all everyone is entitled to an opinion on the matter!
I have found that I have felt more and more over the last few weeks that there is something entirely unsettling about the complete milking of the media attention over this case. Of course the parents are entitled to run a missing person's campaign, but to take it to the lengths that the McCanns seem to have does raise suspicions. It seems that it would be a very easy way to cover your tracks if you WERE guilty to whip up a frenzied media campaign helping to find your child, knowing full well in the first place that she would not be found well and alive.
The evidence that seems to have emerged, although as i understand it hasnt been confirmed as of yet is that there was traces of madelines blood in the hire car they had 28 days after madeline was first reported to have dissapeared. Now why on earth would this be the case if it didnt link the parents in some way to the dissapearance of their child.
Another thing to point out is that from all the pictures, news reports and the like I have seen very little if anything of Mrs McCann looking at all emotional. Who knows, this may be her way of dealing with it, putting on a brave face and not letting her emotions show through. However, could it be that the lack of emotions are because there is a more sinister reason behind it?
I am not labelling her as the murder, but I have to say I do have my doubts, and I wonder why the campaign continues as she is almost certainly either dead or long gone by now. There have been cases very similar to this in the past. You'd never suspect the parents, but you can never rule it out as unfortunately mental instability comes in various sickening forms...
Ben
So you are saying they are capable of blaging the entire publicity campaign, meeting the Pope, speaking to the worlds press, going here, there and everywhere appealing, etc, but when it comes to being able to faking a few tears, they are unable, and so give themselves away?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunjiweb
I think if they could feign all the stuff thats been going on mate, they could probably dig deep a pretend to be a bit more upset if they thought it was needed, yeah?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewart
This could all be a dinial thing, the more they go on with it, the more they belive it themselves.
And not aloud out to play at 3 out of sight from parents, as if:rolleyes:
Do not loose sight of the fact the police are saying 'accidental death' and the parents paniced and hid the evidence worried about the concequences. They will not be charged with murder!
They do protest to much?
I don't know about all you but from what i've seen is a distinct lack of emotion from both parents, with the exeption of Jerry when he was talking about a press article that first linked them to maddys death.
I say again i think it is highly unlikely they are guilty, but they are responcible.
Edit
Just seen this, it's just the police giving info on DNA sample.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/...9,00.html?f=vg
Not the best police in the world but we shall se where it goes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy3536
As much as many posters have complained about the cod psychology applied to Kate McCann's body language and display of grief/lack thereof, it's worth remembering that none of us are in any way qualified or informed enough to make any assessment at all of the efficacy or competency of the portugese investigation (not picking on Andy3536 at all, many peeps have complained about the portugese police).
Any perception we in the UK have of the much-maligned portugese police has been carefully crafted by the professionally orchestrated PR campaign the McCann's set in motion immediately following the disappearance (seriously, one of the first things they did was engage a PR company). This campaign continuously portrayed the police as bungling and incompetent.
Just something else to bear in mind....
And, in the process, put a lot of pressure on the police to find the killer, with the result that the police try to pin it on you because they have nowhere else to go and need to appear to be doing something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunjiweb
I don't think so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPreston
I belive it's based on a number of other issues aswell. I have not personnaly taken to the McCanns at all.
I think the competance of the police was put into question when the british forensics got called to help.
And also the most worrying is that the car they found the blood in was still being used by the family untill the day they left.
Admitidly the genral enquiry may be perfectly well done though.
there seems to be a lot of conflicting information from different papers.
If I rememer the car they hired was after Madelines dissapearance, but another I read was that they continued to use the car (when it should have been impounded and inpected inch by inch)
Anyhow, how did the McCanns sneak out a dead body into the car 25 days in and none of the media notice? Where would they have taken her?
If anything the Portuese might find the McCanns guilty of manslaughter and lock them up, then a few years down the line what if Madeline is found (Like that German or was it Austrain girl?)
now what about the hundreds of other kids who go missing?
You might as well ask how they could have disguised a rotting human body for 25 days in a Portugese summer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithrandir
The forensic evidence is tripe. The chances of a lab being able to distinguish the DNA of a child from that of a parent is minimal.
What we're seeing is a police force that is under pressure and has nowhere else to go. It's still a very bad show.
Definitely the tabloids from the very beginning were critical of the police - the inexperience of the local police in comparision to UK police filled the front pages (in the absence of any real developments). The idea that there was a british pretty middle class white child, in jeopardy due to the bungling ineffectiveness of the euro police had resonance at the time (as though we are lucky that our own police should be that much more experienced in investigating child abductions!).Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy3536
That's crazy the car wasn't impounded straightaway though. And I do think the parents should have been suspects from the outset, as would hopefully be the case in the UK, if only to eliminate them.
Does anybody know if blood tests have been taken from the twins at any point, to see if they had been sedated at any time? And what is the legal situation about doing that, presumably parental consent would be necessary in normal cases....but with the parents as suspects, what happens?
It's is best not judge these people that none of us really know. The media portrays the McCanns in whatever light best suits their own agenda. The apparent sightings have stopped so rather than lose a real money spinning story, the tabloids are now accusing the McCanns of involvement. Great :rolleyes:.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy3536
Its best to keep an open mind and of course, the protuges police must have good reason to warrent further investigation. I just hope that they will not be hounded by those who blindly believe all that they read.
A doctor is not licenced to treat a family-member, whatever the circumstances. But many sedatives, particularly ones used for children, have a very short half-life and will not be detectable if tested hours after the event.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPreston
I really can't help feeling that this is just the Portuguese police clutching at straws as a result of the intense media interest.
Ah I meant I am sure parental consent would be necessary e.g. for the authorities to take a blood sample from one of my children (at least, for the time being anyway). But if the purpose of that sample was to provide evidence to charge me with murdering their sibling, what then? Who could decide....I suppose a judge could order it....don't know. It's a moot point if there would be no traces now, but maybe hair samples or teeth or something could be used to show whether or not the McCanns were routinely doping their kids to save on babysitting fees.
Guess your distrust in the Portuguese police came up in either the released media statements from the family or maybe the fact that the Portuguese police required help from British forensic teams to collect and test those same samples.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy3536
Hmmm i am sure the blood of a 25 days Portuguese summer child corpse is exactly the same as the blood of the living parents.Quote:
Originally Posted by charleski
What if she's not dead?
It may be a wacky idea but what if the parents have her hidden somewhere and she has been in the car alive? It's not terribly likely but they might have their reasons for wanting to cause a huge media fuss?
Money, fame, talk-shows, books, etc. after she miraculously reappears?
Nobody (other than them as individuals not even as a couple) ever does know the real Truth even if they are convicted or not. One of them could have done something and the other might never know. Such is life and apart from being fodder for discussions...Does it even matter?
That’s assuming they are hiding something in the first place, but considering those forensic evidences really exist that indeed seems to be the case. Still it’s impossible to trace the events of that night with those evidences alone, this explains the recent rounds of cross-examination followed by the Portuguese police in a clear attempt to individually question and pressurize the parents.Quote:
Originally Posted by roddines
The McCanns are now reported to be acquiring further legal representation in particular the previous lawyer of Ramón Pinochet.
is it true that they are swingers and Gerry isnt the farther?
An extradition law specialist, I believe...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mama Sumae
Michael Caplan is widely referred as an expert in international criminal law and was indeed appointed by Ramon Pinochet to prevent his extradition to Spain.Quote:
Originally Posted by pollaxe
Amongst other things. But he is undoubtedly a legal heavy gun. VERY heavy.Quote:
Originally Posted by pollaxe
I must admit that something I find interesting is that the McCanns said they were staying in Portugal until Maddie was found, and other than their globe-trotting publicity trips, they seem to have stuck to that. But, with what appears to be almost indecent haste after being declared 'suspects', all of a sudden they're on about the first plane back home. We certainly can't read too much into that, but it is .... well .... suggestive.
^^Yes, that's something I found interesting too.
I must confess I'm less sure than I was a couple of days ago that the parents weren't involved. Simply on a practical level I find it hard to imagine how they could've achieved something like that though, all moral judgement aside.
As ever, conflicting reports in the media make it hard to decide (as there's now talk of large quantities of Madeleine's hair being found in the boot of the car by the spare tyre area on Sky News) but I stand by my earlier statement that we cannot make an informed judgement yet. Speculation and more speculation.
I will say that I've cherished a (perhaps naïve) hope that some day, they would find Madeleine alive somewhere but that hope is now completely gone, unfortunately. Poor kid. I really hope I'm wrong. :(
Well to be fair their flights were booked 2 weeks ago , long before they were declared \'suspects\' . I certainly think they would have been very lucky people to have keep a \'body \' for 25 days then dispose of it with the \'world press\' on their tail every step of the way.
I will not, personally, pillory a woman because I don\'t like the way she acts. I know how I would be if it were my daughter, but I also know that my father would not react by falling apart if it were my sister, even though he loves her to bits. People are just different, and doctors, more than most, have to learn to deal with some bad shirt.
If the evidence were at all compelling the McCanns wouldn\'t be home, they\'d be in jail.
That's another major factor in my wondering over the quality of the forensic evidence against them. I don't know how the Portuguese police work but I can't imagine them being happy with suspects leaving if there was a watertight or near watertight case against one or both of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucelles
Has there been anything, beyond media speculation, to suggest that whatever forensic evidence was found in that car came from Maddie directly?Quote:
Originally Posted by merdat
One of the things about forensic evidence is that there are things it can tell you and things it can't, depending very much on exactly what was found. It is quite feasible for some types of forensic evidence to have been the result of transfer. Suppose Maddie regularly wrapped herself in her favourite blanket. There will be hairs, skin cells and all sorts on that blanket. If you subsequently put that blanket in the boot of a car, the odds are decent that there'll be transfer from blanket to car. At the very least, many forms of forensic evidence don't even prove conclusively that Maddie was ever in the car, even if her DNA was. Forensic techniques have improved vastly in recent years, and evidence containing samples small enough to be beyond detection limits even a relatively small number of years ago are no longer beyond limits.
As far as I'm aware, there's been nothing in the way of confirmation of exactly what forensic evidence was found in this car, and an absolutely fundamental and critical aspect of such forensic evidence is the interpretation derived from it by experts. Finding forensic evidence is one thing. Interpreting what it means is very much another thing.
In many respects, DNA is more useful for exclusionary purposes than affirmative ones, because finding DNA at crime scene doesn't necessarily tell you how or when, let alone under what circumstances, it got there.
Oh, and that same principle of transfer could work in reverse, too. DNA from a totally unrelated individual could end up on a murder victim by transfer, if the murder victim used a hire car (for instance) after that innocent person, so that person's DNA ending up on the victim doesn't mean that's who the murderer is. This is one reason why I feel a national (let alone international) DNA database is a dangerous thing - the temptation for police to find a DNA match and target their efforts on an innocent individual, ESPECIALLY in a high-profile case like this, would be immense. It tends towards putting the individual in the position of explaining how that DNA got there, which may be very hard or next to impossible to do. Just like most evidence, you have to be very careful how you interpret much forensic evidence.
Oh, and then of course there's the potential for planted evidence. Suppose a family member, friend or neighbour abducted Maddie. Is it conceivable that they could have planted evidence in the car, in order to throw suspicion on the parents and away from the guilty party? Dunno. Again, I'd suggest that it depends on exactly what was found, and on other circumstances, like whether the car was always kept secured and/or locked.
So far as I can make out, we still don't really know what was found for sure, let alone how whatever it was may have got to wherever it was found.
its not even funny to suggest that they had anything to do with it put urself in their shoes, being accused of killing ur child mus be soul distroying:juggle:
A man like that doesn't come cheap!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mama Sumae
Hope there not using money from the find maddy campain for that.
Simon Cowell won't be happy if they are.
Who on earth said it was funny? Thats ****ing ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavemandave
But we are allowed to speculate as much as the media are. After all if the McCanns want the entire search / trials or whatever else may emerge in the full public eye as they have done so far, then they should expect some doubt and criticism, and living in a free country we are allowed to do so.
How can you be sure that they ARENT involved? You have to see every side of the story. I am most certainly not condemming them straight away to being involved, but why on earth should I flat out refuse to believe that it could be true?
I have to say, if it is as soul destroying as you are suggesting then I wouldnt have the energy to be doing interview after interview and whoring myself to the world's media.
Ben
Lets not forget the police have said 'accidental death' so where not thinking they went out and murdered her, just she was killed accidentally and affraid of the concequences they covered it up.
At the moment, what is out in the public domain is not enough to be convinced either way, but the police may know somthing there not telling the press, then again though they might not.
It's not remotely funny. There's nothing about this whole sad affair that, personally, I find in the slightest bit amusing let alone funny. Nor, for that matter, would I dream of accusing the parents.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavemandave
BUT .... it's a sad fact that, statistically, there's a pretty good chance that the abductor is either part of or known to the family. That's why they will be among the very first candidates the police look at.
It's a sad fact of society, or perhaps human nature, that parents sometimes kill their offspring. It's happened before, and for a certainty, it'll happen again. Did it happen this time? Dunno. I'm still hoping Maddy's not dead, but about the only thing encouraging that hope is the absence of a body. So I'm hoping .... but not particularly optimistic.
Saracen there seems to be about 2000 words missing from your post ;)
Sorry. Having an off day.
:D