Petition: Abolish faith schools (UK) |

[JPreston]

there is a slight problem with such an attempt to trivialise Christ. you have failed to consider the evidence (shock! horror!)

This really is too funny. The point was, if you had born into any other human society either today or throughout history you would just as likely have ended up having absolute unshakable faith in Psychopompos, or any one or more of his chums. Do you not agree with that?

How do you even know that it really is Mr Jesus H. Christ of 37 The Poplars, Nazareth that you worship anyway? It could be actually Chernobog, couldn't it? When he revealed himself to you, did you run through iranu's list and he said "Stop, I'm that one! That one there - the blatant copy of the earlier gods Mithras and Horus (to name just a couple). I'm also called Iesu. But not Potrimpo, I'm definitely not him".

Let's see how many lives you manage to turn around with YOUR 'science', with your protestations about the evil of Christianity, with your constant diatribes....

....and with our penicillin, operations to remove cataracts, agriculture, tools, refrigeration, pasteurisation, vaccination, germ theory of disease, electricity, central heating, pharmaceuticals, fabrics, economic theory, manufacturing, hurricane warnings, mathematics, token currency, written language and printing machines, electronics, telecommunications, engineering, construction, and cancer treatments as well? I mean, what have the countless patient scientific discoveries of mankind ever done for us anyway.....?

Fuddam, to avoid hypocrisy you really need to unplug your PC right now, wrap yourself in wild animal skins and go and live in a cave somewhere, scratching at the ground for seeds and insects to eat with your fingers.

[iranu]

there is a slight problem with such an attempt to trivialise Christ.

I shall reiterate the point in bold which precedes the list of gods posted

Would you say that if RE should include these viewpoints then the viewpoints of the religions with the following deities should also be taught because that would give the student the most rounded picture?

Where does it say that it trivialises christ? It doesn't you've imagined it.

The point Fuddam is exactly this. If you teach one creationist story then you must teach them all for balance. That list can also be used to show that a Christian or a Muslim or any other deist is also an atheist with respect to all other gods other than the one they believe in.

you have failed to consider the evidence (shock! horror!)

Yes evidence I'd like to see it. The simple fact remains that there is no evidence for the existence of jesus christ. In another thread I already linked to the RRS site showing that there wasn't any evidence but it was never properly rebutted by Fuddam (searching for teh hexus link). I wonder why? A good analysis here if you care to read it.

Another point. Everyone claims that their religion is true and the rest are myths, but all religions operate the same. Christianity is just as geographically dependent as witchcraft is. You're trying to tell me that Christianity is real and there's an actual God behind it all, but it spreads through normal cultural contact just like myths do, it's passed on through cultural indoctrination just like myths are, and it can't provide any more evidence than all the other religions in the world can. Just like Zeus, a myth, the Christian God couldn't cross the Atlantic ocean until boats were constructed and human beings crossed the Atlantic. Your God acts exactly like a myth.

The anthropological evidence shows us that even when there's nothing supernatural of any kind going on, people will still devote their lives to absurd supernatural beliefs (scientology, David Koresh, Heaven's Gate cultists, etc). You of course are positive your religion is different, as every believer is, including the scientologists. They are claiming that their religion is true and that yours is just a cultural artifact.

But not a single one of you can provide more evidence than any of the rest. It should bother you that you are in the exact same category as scientology and alien abductees.

You use this exact same argument to disbelieve in all of the other claims of supernatural beliefs out there. And everyone who isn't a Christian uses it against Christianity. And no one thinks it applies to their religion, the one the vast majority of the time was gained through cultural indoctrination.

and the same goes for whoever wants to mention the FSM and co.

There is equal evidence for the FSM and co and here it is; None. Nil. Nada. Zero. Sweet Felicity Arkwright.

2 things:

1) ask the believers what their respective gods have ever done for them.

2) see if there is any real benefit in the lives of the believers, of their belief. Snip

Oh dear. None of that is evidence. Again in 1) you say Christianity is special. See the above quoted paragraphs. There never has been any evidence to show that god helps people. If there is then kindly show it to the world. You could make alot of money from James Randi and then help the world some more if you did. The I have experienced it is rubbish. I bet you can't even use words in their proper context to describe the experience let alone prove that it was god that did it or not.

You have experienced something and attribute it to god/christ without proof. It could have been any of the gods I listed and you would not be able to tell the difference. It could be a god that no-one has ever heard of or invented and you'd be none the wiser. It could indeed be no god at all and all you are doing is projecting your indoctrination. All aboard the Fuddam train, it goes woo-woo!

In 2) all you seem to say is that community can help people. No real surprise there then. We are sociable animals. There are benefits to many beliefs, religious or not. It all comes down to the individual but that does not mean to say anyone should believe in anything they want because it helps them. I'd ask slave owners about their belief in slavery and ask "is their any benefit to your life in your belief"? Yep I've become stinking rich (and with those riches I now use my noble belief of helping the poor by building schools and hospitals.)

Then you spout some nonsense about diatribes and evil christianity etc etc. Dunno what you are on about there, but it seems that you have got a bee in your bonnet. If you had bothered to read the thread then you will find none of that in this thread. No one here is saying christianity (christinsanity - can't help increasing the number of bees) is evil unless I've missed it. All we were doing is discussing the merit of teaching ID/creationism in class until Fuddam came ranting and raving without contributing to the OP

JPreston answers your other questions especially the science one.

Again you have hijacked the thread and not answered the questions. We still do not know your position on the teaching of creationism in schools. Care to join the debate or are you a closet creationist? Fancy a banana and peanut butter sandwich?

[UltraMagnus]

I personally have no problem with "creative design" seriously, the odds of there even being more matter than antimatter in the universe are infinitesimal for a start.

the problem is when religious texts are taken literally, people have to understand they were written over 2000 years ago for what are by today standards, total and utter idiots that had trouble comprehending the existence of other continents or the fact that terra was not the centre of the universe.

[redlight]

Best stop argueing folks.
This thread is going nowhere,I learned a long time ago not to mess with peoples beliefs.
Me well I look at it this way.
Religion or or any other sort of tomfoolery is down to humans fear of death.
If a person wants to belief in a faith(as long as it does not harm a fellow human)then let them get on with it.
If it makes death a bit more pallitable then why not.
To me death is just the final act of nature,to others too make it a worthwhile end they believe in going to a greater place.
I might be wrong and maybe just maybe they might be wrong.
Books about religion well why not if its teaching people morals nothing wrong with that,
its just that humans have this bad habit of misinterpreting the written word or use it for thier own personal gain.
Life is too short as it is without spending a lot of time worrying about if there is pearly gates or fire and brimstone.

[iranu]

This thread is going nowhere,I learned a long time ago not to mess with peoples beliefs.

No one is messing with anyones beliefs. People a free to choose. The trouble is some people with those beliefs wish to teach non-science (or should that be nonsense) in science classes.

The UK (and EU) is lucky because it's a tiny number even though it is being debated at EU level, but in America they really have a fight on their hands.

If a person wants to belief in a faith(as long as it does not harm a fellow human)then let them get on with it.

Yep I'd agree, unfortunately there are people who want to teach children nonsense because it fits in with their brand of religion. I wish they'd leave us alone as we leave them alone.

[fuddam]

This really is too funny. The point was, if you had born into any other human society either today or throughout history you would just as likely have ended up having absolute unshakable faith in Psychopompos, or any one or more of his chums. Do you not agree with that?

initially, until I am able to think for myself. Christianity involves asking questions about Christ, about God, about the logic (yes) of the entire system, of the coherence of the system etc, and actively encourages such dialogue.
People in other faiths usually are not encouraged to think (rather, they must submit), or when they start to question, the cracks become evident. E.g. why one should be forbidden to have sex with anyone other than one's wife on earth, but in paradise to have access to 72 virgins etc. So you are wrong to use terms like 'absolute, unshakeable faith'. You are talking theoretically. Have you actually spoken to anyone about their faith? No, not argue, spoken.

How do you even know that it really is Mr Jesus H. Christ of 37 The Poplars, Nazareth that you worship anyway? It could be actually Chernobog, couldn't it? When he revealed himself to you, did you run through iranu's list and he said "Stop, I'm that one! That one there - the blatant copy of the earlier gods Mithras and Horus (to name just a couple). I'm also called Iesu. But not Potrimpo, I'm definitely not him".

I've spoken to him. All the time, in fact. Much like you're speaking to me via this forum. I don't doubt your existence, or assume you are actually a computer with a semblence of sentience. Yes, he replies in literal sentences, not only symbols and pictures.

....and with our penicillin, operations to remove cataracts, agriculture, tools, refrigeration, pasteurisation, vaccination, germ theory of disease, electricity, central heating, pharmaceuticals, fabrics, economic theory, manufacturing, hurricane warnings, mathematics, token currency, written language and printing machines, electronics, telecommunications, engineering, construction, and cancer treatments as well? I mean, what have the countless patient scientific discoveries of mankind ever done for us anyway.....?

as usual, ignoring my final sentence in that posting. I was referring to YOUR science. See the emphasis? See how I anticipated your response? good.

[fuddam]

No, simple common sense. Science relies on proof and theories based on lots of other proof to be proven themselves before taken as anything more than a guideline in further research. Religion is based on belief and faith, neither of which require proof.

um, actually, no. If anyone says X about their religion, I want proof. As I require of Christianity. As a child I might not, but as an adult, I do.

contrary to most atheist assumptions, mature Christians do not rely on blind faith. quite the opposite.

so, I have proof of Christ's existence, but it is not proof that you accept, therefore you dismiss it as rubbish. pretty normal experience for me.

[TheAnimus]

initia I've spoken to him. All the time, in fact. Much like you're speaking to me via this forum. I don't doubt your existence, or assume you are actually a computer with a semblence of sentience. Yes, he replies in literal sentences, not only symbols and pictures.

If the court didnt belive that the voices told me to do it....

Surely you admit, that the cracks such as the whole everlasting virgins in the afterlife, occur in all major religions? Or is yours perfect and is that why its the real truth?

[Moby-Dick]

And thats all there is to say about that.

Its gone way off topic. I think Redlight sums it up about right.

We'll conclude in the words of Dave Allen.

"Good night, and may your god go with you."