Petition: Abolish faith schools (UK) |

[Agent]

Josh mate, I don't want to come across as a nob here, but please read what's actually been wrote as opposed to reading it, then replying to what you wanted to be said

So, if this were the case, you would prefer 100% of schools to not teach religion AT ALL, just for the 1% that aren't Christians? Because this is what this petition seems to amount to...

No, it doesnt. Quote from it where it says that relgion should not be taught in schools.

Here is the passage.

Faith schools remove the rights of children to choose their own religious, philosophical and ethical beliefs. They also sanction ethnic segregation and create tension and divisiveness within society. Schools should be places where children are given a free education, not centres for indoctrination. Creationism and other religious myths should not be taught as fact regardless of the funding status of a school. Abolishing faith schools will provide children with more freedom of choice and help to promote a fully multi-cultural, peaceful society.

Now, don't alter anything. Directly copy and paste from the bit where they are asking for religion to be banned.

From your previous post:

and ban "the teaching of creationism and other religious mythology in all UK schools."

Totally out of context, and not what it said in any shape, way or form.
Again, copy and paste and show me where it says that it should be banned.
All you have done is taken a sentence, added "and ban" to the beginning of it to try and make it hold water for your opinion.
What it actually says is "Creationism and other religious myths should not be taught as fact regardless of the funding status of a school". No mention of banning religious teaching anywhere.

....In that the petition is asking for religious education to be removed from all schools in the UK.....

See above. Copy and paste for us where it says that please.
Its asking no such thing.

.....Surely schools are one of the best places to learn about religion - where else will they learn about all religions equally?.....

Yes, and as the article says, these faith schools are not the place to learn about "religions equally", as you said. How can a school with X religious agenda teach on Y.

.....yet you don't want ANY religious education what-so-ever?.....

Where was that said exactly?
Quote it.
Like you have done with the article, you have taken JPreston's post out of context to make it what you want to reply to.

[herulach]

Dave, I just don't see what your point is. Your parents are free to pay to send you to a faith school, although I don't agree with indoctrination of kids it is perfectly legal (although if I had my way, it wouldn't be). I do not see why I should pay for it at all.

I think you're arguing a different point than the majority of others in this thread. I went to cofe schools to the end of year 8, in my memory, bar being in christingle, which was good cos you got jelly tots, i was in no way indoctrinated to be a Christian (much to my mother's chagrin) I did RE all the way through high school, and really don't see a problem with it. I think it's fairly important for everyone to have an understanding of other people's faiths, if only so you know not to ring your Jewish customer's during holidays or whatever.

I wholeheartedly agree that creationism shouldn't be in science lessons, but if people don't want to believe it, then I have no problems with them, and denouncing them as idiots makes you sound frankly ridiculous yourself. Your argument seems to be i don't believe it so its wrong, which is hardly very sensible, and reads a little bit like littlejohn, or some other red top dross.

The fact of the matter is faith schools perform well, and personally, id rather have the church teaching my kids science (which is at least easy enough to spot) than say, GSK, or Shell. (see city academies)

[herulach]

...snip..

Without wanting to troll agent, and i do see your point, I dont think josh was refering specifically to the article with some of his comments

[staffsMike]

Creationism maybe doesn't belong is a Science lab..but who here is actually qualified to say that?

I'm certainly not.

I've probably reall all the physics books you have, maybe more. Where is the answer to what caused the the big bang? Enlighten me.

Would it be totally rediculous to suggest that a "big bang" was started by a superior or supreme being?

Who knows..

just teaching science is plain wrong. Religion is a horrible device to which some of the most horrible wars were caused but perhaps is each side could appriciate and tolerate other beliefs it wouldn't cause wars.

If you ask me, they're right to teach it and if you have a particular faith why not attend a school which represents it.

Final question. Are you educated enough to know the difference between a muslim and a terrorist? Because we all know that a lot of people aren't.

[JPreston]

...
The fact of the matter is faith schools perform well...

Purely because they are the only schools that are still allowed to select.

[joshwa]

My internet is going slow...

but in response to Agent, if you read the petition title at the top of the page it says:

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Abolish all faith schools and prohibit* the teaching of creationism and other religious mythology in all UK schools.

* pohibit, aka ban. (admittedly it does clarify this later in the petition, but which do they really mean?)

My main point is that religion should be taught in schools. Would you rather have all religions taught in school, or would you have religion removed from schools, and then let them be taught religion at the local church / synagogue / mosque? The school environment is the right place for religion to be taught in a balanced way, without any peer pressure or bias.

a further point on the subject - should we also be petitioning to ban Grammar schools, that are selective in who they take?

[JPreston]

Where is the answer to what caused the the big bang? Enlighten me.

Definitely not in the bible.

Would it be totally rediculous to suggest that a "big bang" was started by a superior or supreme being.

Ah, the 'god of the gaps' argument

[JPreston]

a further point on the subject - should we also be petitioning to ban Grammar schools, that are selective in who they take?

No - only the faith 'schools' need to be banned. And the last I saw, we weren't building dozens of new grammar schools were we? Do kids even sit the 11+ any more?

The only reason I brought selection into it is because the suggestion was made that better results at these madrassas was due to the higher density of beards dog collars and tambourines there. It's not. It's just selection.

[staffsMike]

Definitely not in the bible.



Ah, the 'god of the gaps' argument

I'm not talking about christianity, im talking about religion.. faith

why not..why be so narrow minded?

[arbitor]

Get rid, absoloute waste of time in my eyes, thats not just the schools its religion in general, mucking about with a load of tosh and forgetting to live your life.

Its like fasting makes me laugh out loud. utterly stupid.

[joshwa]

No - only the faith 'schools' need to be banned. And the last I saw, we weren't building dozens of new grammar schools were we? Do kids even sit the 11+ any more?

The only reason I brought selection into it is because the suggestion was made that better results at these madrassas was due to the higher density of beards dog collars and tambourines there. It's not. It's just selection.

It seems like selection systems are on the increase (in secular school systems):

Since 1997 successive Education Secretaries have expressed support for an increase in selective education along the lines of old grammar schools. Specialist schools, advanced schools, beacon schools and similar initiatives have been proposed as ways of raising standards, either offering the chance to impose selection or recognizing the achievements of selective schools. Tony Blair has talked of an “escalator” system, and government education policy appears to accept the existence of some kind of hierarchy in secondary education.[2] In most assessments, grammar schools stand at the apex of any such structure. Grammar schools receive an average of £1000 per head more than other schools, leading to accusations of dividing and separating social classes, as middle-/upper-class families are more likely to send their children to grammar school or hire a private tutor to help them.

Does the original petition have a problem with selection systems, or faith schools, or religious education in state funded schools? (obviously all three) But if selection is an issue, why not petition to have selection systems dropped from secular (non-faith) schools as well?

[Agent]

Without wanting to troll agent, and i do see your point, I dont think josh was refering specifically to the article with some of his comments

Probably was a few, but after referring to the article several times with incorrect points, they all tend to blend into one
Appols for the ones that wasn't directly aimed at it. Its hard to fish between them sometimes

My internet is going slow...

but in response to Agent, if you read the petition title at the top of the page it says:

"We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Abolish all faith schools and prohibit* the teaching of creationism and other religious mythology in all UK schools."

* pohibit, aka ban. (admittedly it does clarify this later in the petition, but which do they really mean?)

I missed that bit, but even so, it seems obvious (to me at least) that they are talking about teaching certain religions as fact. Anyone starting a petition to ban religion in schools serves little purpose. Even scientific reasoning has to accept that there is a possibility that relgion/s could be correct (although a lot assign themselfs to Occam's razor)

My main point is that religion should be taught in schools. Would you rather have all religions taught in school, or would you have religion removed from schools, and then let them be taught religion at the local church / synagogue / mosque? The school environment is the right place for religion to be taught in a balanced way, without any peer pressure or bias.

I 100% agree, but I don't think anyone was saying otherwise

a further point on the subject - should we also be petitioning to ban Grammar schools, that are selective in who they take?

Indeed. Thats another discussion that's pretty interesting

[TheAnimus]

A while before i gave up IRC, i was chatting to a holecaust denier, they seamed to honestly belive it didn't happen.

Now his/her main argument was why do some countries have such laws that your not allowed to question, or begin to deny the events as the government dictates. This might of been needed to convince the world that the new governement wasn't antisemetic. But for them it ment that any flaw in the version put forward by the state, was proof it was all lies. Fact of the matter is, so many people where killed the exact number is hard to know, proving that one out of the millions didn't happened when no debate is allowed means they can convince themself its all lies.

This is why you should never push people underground.

You can cut all funding, but making them ilegal is another matter.

[joshwa]

My main "beef" with the petition is...

- You should have a choice where you send your children - the petition aims to remove choice. "Abolish faith schools". All faith schools? (Even private faith schools? - the petition doesn't specify - but lets assume they're just talking about goverment funded schools...)
- The government should provide / cater to society. (If 5% is jewish, then 5% of education system should cater for that, 72% of britain say they are "Christian" - why shouldn't the government cater to that?).
- Selection in schools is obviously an issue, but it's not just faith schools that are selective, in fact the government is encouraging selection (see wiki quote above). The petition seems to unfairly blame faith schools for the selection system.

[JPreston]

I'm not talking about christianity, im talking about religion.. faith

why not..why be so narrow minded?

Yes you're right, I'm being narrow minded. So let's give equal class time to Thor, Mithras, Cthulhu, David Koresh, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Lord Ram and his Army of Monkeys*, Baal, Anubis, L. ron Hubbard, and every single one of the 1000s of unfalsifiable (but generally mutually contradictory) gods and messiahs that people have worshipped at some point. Wouldn't want to be narrow minded, would we? I mean, we don't really know for sure.


*actually, perhaps 1 billion people today believe in the Army of Monkeys. Maybe that theory should get extra weight?

[G4Z]

My main "beef" with the petition is...

- You should have a choice where you send your children - the petition aims to remove choice. "Abolish faith schools". All faith schools? (Even private faith schools? - the petition doesn't specify - but lets assume they're just talking about goverment funded schools...)

I think they are talking about state schools, the state has little control over the independent schools. Assuming that is true then I don't see how it removes choice, if you really want to indoctrinate your kids, you pay for it. Why should I?

- The government should provide / cater to society. (If 5% is jewish, then 5% of education system should cater for that, 72% of britain say they are "Christian" - why shouldn't the government cater to that?).

Fankly, I suspect that there is a fair percentage of pastafarians and scientoligists. Do you think the government should cater to that as well?

- Selection in schools is obviously an issue, but it's not just faith schools that are selective, in fact the government is encouraging selection (see wiki quote above). The petition seems to unfairly blame faith schools for the selection system.

No, the petition is an objection to the indoctrination of kids who have no choice in the matter. I disagree with selection as well, however I have more of a problem with paying for people to teach kids utter rubbish. I am not talking about RE either, its ok to have an understanding of other religions, it is not ok to teach it as fact.