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Thread: Petition: Abolish faith schools (UK) |

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    Re: Petition: Abolish faith schools (UK) |

    And further rebuttals to show what nonsense this post is

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmaster View Post
    What evidence? The last time I checked it is was still a theory.
    You misunderstand what theory means with regard to the scientific meaning. Even wiki shows this here.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory. A theory can be just that and fact aswell.

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmaster View Post
    And please don’t use the excuse that 'gravity is a theory as well’. If you throw an apple in the air it falls down, so you can assume some sort of force is pulling the apple towards the earth, it may still not be gravity, but its very good evidence.
    See above. The evidence you speak of is abundent. Each new discovery supports the theory, it never does otherwise. Creationists can show no evidence to the contrary and they only use a god of the gaps argument. They try to pick up on the holes where the holes make up 0.001% of the evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmaster View Post
    Evolution states everything happened by chance, all the thousands of different species of plants, animals, and insects occurred by chance. Also that all these species live in balance with one other, and unless we humans disturb them or an environmental disaster happens it stays in balance.
    No, no, no no, no and no. Evolution is not chance - see my above post for the explanation. Secondly why do you say everything is in balance unless we disturb it? Surely we are as much part of nature as teh 30,000 plus odd beetles that live on the planet. I've always wonderred why god had such a hard on for beetles when he was designing the world

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmaster View Post
    Now you might say all these species arose by adaptations brought about by mutation in genes, natural selection or survival of the fittest etc, the probability of this is unlikely but not impossible. But where did the original cell come from? Because for all of this to happen we have to start off with a single cell.
    Again you show your ignorance. Infact evolution is far more statistically probable than "goddidit". It's about time scales, millions and millions of years and the adaptation to environment. As far as the cell is concerned I'm not sure what you are getting at. Are you talking about abiogenesis? Type "the first cell" into google and you'll find your answers.

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmaster View Post
    We can start to use a bit of logic now, the cell carries out hundreds of very complicated processes every second, which help us move, eat, feel, etc. It’s more complicated then anything we humans have made including our computers. It is the most energy efficient ‘machine’ on this earth. If you looked at a cell through an electron microscope it would make the layout of New York City look remarkably simple. And yet you are 100% sure that this happened by chance. Ask a mathematician what’s the probability of random molecules and atoms combining to form a highly organised cell and then eventually evolve into thousands of species we see today, and he or she will tell you have more chance of winning the lottery every week for the next ten years.
    Argument from personal incredularity. It has nothing to do with logic. Just because something is extremely complex does not mean to say that it can't happen by "chance". I'm sure that an integrated circuit makes "New York city look remakable simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmaster View Post
    Scientists have yet to even fully understand our cell, let alone other parts of biology. More then half of our DNA is still unmapped. We dont fully understand how our brain works. So by saying you are 100% sure that there is no chance of higher intelligence/being responsible for this, you are not showing intelligence or logic, you are showing pure arrogance.
    And you are showing pure ignorance. Biologists do understand how the cell works, you can learn about it in biology lessons. The human genome has been mapped and we are finding out how DNA affects genetic disease and human traits daily. A friend of mine is a neuroscientist who lectures and researches at a well renowned university. He got his PHD at Cambridge and yes he doesn't understand everything but I can tell you that there is an enormous amount that he does know and indeed imparts that knowledge to others. Saying "ooh it's awfully complex and we don't know everything so therefore God" is stupid. It's a god of the gaps argument and is therefore worthless. There is no evidence that god or a higher being is responsible so yes I can rule that out until evidence is found to support that position.

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmaster View Post
    I am not arguing that creationism should be taught as a fact in schools- it should not but this should also include evolution. We don’t have the right to tell students what is a fact and what is a myth. In my honest opinion I believe both should be taught in schools as theories side by side, and the students should be left to decide what they want to believe in.
    This sentence means; I'm not arguing that gobbledegook should be taught as fact in schools, but nor should 2+2 be taught to equal 4. Let the students choose what they believe in. Anyone reading it with an ounce of sense will laugh at it's ridiculousness. I choose to believe that 2+2 =5. Because I believe it it is right? Nonsense, the whole idea of education is to impart knowledge.

    How well did you do at school in your exams. Did you pass or did you just write what you chose to believe in. I'm sure it would have amused the exam markers, but it would have achieved little else. That is why we have peer review and science has some very important ground rules for determining experimentation before anything is supported as fact.
    "Reality is what it is, not what you want it to be." Frank Zappa. ----------- "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." Huang Po.----------- "A drowsy line of wasted time bathes my open mind", - Ride.

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    Re: Petition: Abolish faith schools (UK) |

    Quote Originally Posted by iranu View Post

    How well did you do at school in your exams.
    Actually I did really well, thanks for asking though.

    EDIT- Thanks for links to those websites- they provided an interesting read.

    I would just like to say not every scientist or anyone with a phd believes in evolution. There are plenty of scientists out there who do not believe in it.

    Here are some websites/videos that contains some info about this -

    http://www.truthinscience.org.uk/

    http://www.dissentfromdarwin.org/

    http://www.pssiinternational.com/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUwitJXHjaQ

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw-_rDZ76Z0

    I did not post on this thread to argue about the credibility of evolution, but instead to give my opinion that I dont think it should be taught as a fact in schools. Simple as that. Anyhow this is my last post on this thread, as at this rate this argument will never end.
    Last edited by shadowmaster; 09-10-2007 at 11:06 PM.

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    Re: Petition: Abolish faith schools (UK) |

    Quote Originally Posted by iranu View Post
    Ask a mathematician what’s the probability of random molecules and atoms combining to form a highly organised cell and then eventually evolve into thousands of species we see today, and he or she will tell you have more chance of winning the lottery every week for the next ten years.
    Argument from personal incredularity. It has nothing to do with logic. Just because something is extremely complex does not mean to say that it can't happen by "chance". I'm sure that an integrated circuit makes "New York city look remakable simple.
    ...
    As an aside with that particular bit I thought he was going to make a point about Boltzmann brains, and I thought I'd read on to find out how the argument would develop. When I realised that he actually does know nothing at all about the topic, I felt cheated and wanted my 30 seconds back....were it not for that chance combination of words implying that there would be some substance to the post, I wouldn't have credited it with a reply at all. Best to follow your mate's advice that:

    If a person says this, you might as well just walk out and leave. This most basic of errors shows that they have no understanding of basic science.
    And save yourself the typing
    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand Russell

    The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.

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    Re: Petition: Abolish faith schools (UK) |

    Quote Originally Posted by Brucelles View Post
    That was my school's unofficial school hymn (The real one was some kind of un-PC, fascist, stuff about conquering brown people, stealing their stuff, and exterminating any last traces of their own religion.)
    lol. Probably a good idea that they went with the unofficial one
    Quote Originally Posted by Adolf Hitler
    .
    nice to see him keeping up with the technology!


    p.s. What does the red name mean, from some posters, in this section of the forum?

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    Re: Petition: Abolish faith schools (UK) |

    Quote Originally Posted by G4Z View Post
    I take exception to this, I am an Englishman born and bred and just because I do not agree with the perpetuation of bronze age mythology does not mean I should depart. I don't like it being called a 'Christian country' and as far as I am concertned its not a christian country at all, its a tolerant one and I won't be leaving any time soon.

    This idea that the majority of people here are Christians is a load of crap anyway, I know what the census says but I do not think its reliable. Why do I think that? Well my girlfirned does not believe in god, however when asked what religion she is on a form she fills in catholic. She is not the only one that does this, I am sure there are millions of people who do that, if you ask the relevant question i.e do you believe in god you get a different number as evidenced by this study that puts the number of athiests/agnostics at between 18 and 26 million people.

    http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html

    So, you see it USED to be a christian country, its not anymore and I would be hard pressed to find anybody my age (mid twenties) at work or in my circle of friends that actualy goes for this god boddery. In fact I can think of only 1 godbod I know and I met her on facebook, make of that what you will.
    now you 'know' 2... I'm 21, and am a christian... I agree with you on the point that while britain may been seen still as a christian country, in reality it isnt...

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    Senior Amoeba iranu's Avatar
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    Re: Petition: Abolish faith schools (UK) |

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmaster View Post
    Welcome to Truth in Science, an organisation promoting good science education in the UK. Our initial focus is on the origin of life and its diversity.

    For many years, much of what has been taught in school science lessons about the origin of the living world has been dogmatic and imbalanced. The theory of Darwinian evolution has been presented as scientifically uncontroversial and the only credible explanation of origins.
    You've got to laugh at their opening statements. "Truth is Science" wtf! promoting good science education (by ignoring evidence). I wouldn't mind if they actually had some evidence to base their assertions on. Dogmatic! Jebus give me a break, you couldn't make it up. The most controversial theory in the history of science may well be taught to children without mentioning the controversy but what's wrong with that? There is no credible alternative. If there was a credible alternative it would be taught simply because there would be huge numbers of scientists and biologists who would back it.

    Now lets take that point and add it to your "There are plenty of scientists out there who do not believe in it."

    Plenty meaning what? Many? More than one? How about we say that there are more scientists who don't believe in evolution than those that do.....who are called Steve. Project Steve. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/steve/


    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmaster View Post
    Again let's look at their opening statement
    During recent decades, new scientific evidence from many scientific disciplines such as cosmology, physics, biology, "artificial intelligence" research, and others have caused scientists to begin questioning Darwinism's central tenet of natural selection and studying the evidence supporting it in greater detail.
    My bold. Cosmology has nothing to do with the study of evolution nor has artificial intelligence. Physics has little either. Now I thought that this site might have something but it's fact sheet on micro verses macro evolution runs to a whopping 2 pages! Yes it does have some quotes but there is no credible alternative produced and has a shortage of links to other places. It's more an appeal to the gullible. I'm guessing that you did a quick google and linked the first few pages.

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmaster View Post
    Lol - yes and this link is actually in the above site, it's the bottom one. So they have a few people in medicine who disagree. Well good for them, dissent is no bad thing but dissenting when there is overwhelming evidence is stupid and I'd bet my bottom dollar that most of those names will be from the US and will be Christians. I refer you once again to project steve.

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmaster View Post
    Are yes Michael J. Behe. Well known for producing zero evidence for his theory. See here.

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmaster View Post
    Opening title "A journalist investigates scientific evidence that points toward god". mmmn ok. So who is Lee Strobel? He has a degree in journalism and another one in law. He's a former athiest and now a Christian. Journalism and Law you work it out.The video is based on his book http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Case_for_a_Creator. Don't waste your time.

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmaster View Post
    I did not post on this thread to argue about the credibility of evolution, but instead to give my opinion that I dont think it should be taught as a fact in schools. Simple as that. Anyhow this is my last post on this thread, as at this rate this argument will never end.
    Yet you link to such poor sites and video. If you wanted to give your opinion "that I dont think it should be taught as a fact in schools." then you at least have to give an alternative. The only alternative is ID/creationism and that is not science because there is no evidence for it.

    One has the weight of a lead elephant that just keeps getting bigger, the other is a small helium balloon that floats off into the distance runs out of gas and ends up as a soggy mess much like a discarded, used condom.

    Continuing the amusing theme here are some videos that will amuse you or make you cry. They show the level of creationist/ID proponents thinking.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zwbhAXe5yk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZFG5...elated&search=
    "Reality is what it is, not what you want it to be." Frank Zappa. ----------- "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." Huang Po.----------- "A drowsy line of wasted time bathes my open mind", - Ride.

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    Re: Petition: Abolish faith schools (UK) |

    Quote Originally Posted by iranu View Post
    The creationists nightmare - the pineapple.

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    Re: Petition: Abolish faith schools (UK) |

    HEXUS FOLDING TEAM It's EASY

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    Re: Petition: Abolish faith schools (UK) |

    same old, same old. Read the first 3 pages, then jumped to this last one. Seeing as the usual atheists were weighing in with their 2c worth, thought I'd throw in mine

    1) original premise, ie. ban faith schools: same old intolerance that atheists are famous for. Christianity is not intolerant, though many Christians may well be.

    2nd: EVERYONE lives a life of faith. EVERYONE. Just so happens that the atheists here have faith in science (and only science), and their logic, as to holding the truth.

    No-one can escape having blinkers - it's just a matter of how aware one is that there are blinkers. Only the pig-ignorant would claim to be objective arbiters of the truth. And just watch, they're sure to respond exactly like that to this post

    3rd: vigorous atheists usually have a beef with God. Not with trying to push 'the truth' but trying to prove the non-existence of God, that He is evil / cause of all evil / sadistic etc. Any why so? Because these same individuals have had a bad experience with Christianity in the form of some encounter with a Christian, NOT an encounter with Christ. So then they label the whole thing bad, and throw the baby out with the bathwater. Same old.........

    If God was to turn up on their doorsteps, in an irrefutable way, they'd still vigorously search for ways to deny it. "I was drunk/stoned/light-headed/confused/hoodwinked/brainwashed/etc"

    Their main beef? They don't WANT to recognise His existence, no matter what. Running away as fast as their legs can carry them.

    oh, while we're about it, for a nice rebuttal to Dawkins, have a looksee here The Dawkins Letters: Challenging Atheist Myths

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    Re: Petition: Abolish faith schools (UK) |

    Whilst we're on the topic of challenging atheist myths and religious beliefs I thought I'd share my findings with you.

    I came across a website which seems to make sense of everything and importantly taking science into consideration. I thought a number of people involved in this thread may be interested in having a look.

    "To provide accurate answers to those people who desire to search for ‘The Truth’ much of which is contained within many ‘easy-to-read’ small sections totalling several thousand pages of information in its complete form - and to promote considered questioning upon present understanding."

    The website is: http://www.futurelife.org/

    I think it'd be interesting when the site above has an operational forum! I'm sure there'd be some in depth discussion - I know I have a couple of questions I'd like to put forward.

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    Re: Petition: Abolish faith schools (UK) |

    questions? ask away. you never know..........


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    Re: Petition: Abolish faith schools (UK) |

    Wondered when you would show your face.
    HEXUS FOLDING TEAM It's EASY

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    Re: Petition: Abolish faith schools (UK) |

    Quote Originally Posted by fuddam View Post
    If God was to turn up on their doorsteps, in an irrefutable way, they'd still vigorously search for ways to deny it. "I was drunk/stoned/light-headed/confused/hoodwinked/brainwashed/etc"
    Even though I of course know it is utterly futile to convince someone who is as nutty as you, if some God showed me some irrefutable proof than I would accept it with meek frankness of that I am certain (not that he would of course, it's patently obvious to any sane person there's no such thing). It all boils down to what you want to see as proof, such as your, in your words fuddam, miracle working healers that you witnessed in india, or the 'god shaped hole that is filled inside you'. Proof to you maybe, not proof, I feel I must reiterate, to anyone sane. Cheers.
    To err is human. To really foul things up ... you need a computer.

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    Re: Petition: Abolish faith schools (UK) |

    Quote Originally Posted by yamangman View Post
    Even though I of course know it is utterly futile to convince someone who is as nutty as you, if some God showed me some irrefutable proof than I would accept it with meek frankness of that I am certain (not that he would of course, it's patently obvious to any sane person there's no such thing). It all boils down to what you want to see as proof, such as your, in your words fuddam, miracle working healers that you witnessed in india, or the 'god shaped hole that is filled inside you'. Proof to you maybe, not proof, I feel I must reiterate, to anyone sane. Cheers.
    hehehe, you know I'm not going to try to prove his existence
    just replying because you mention the word 'sane'. That would be another escape clause - sorry, I neglected to mention it, i.e. seeing God must have been a moment of insanity.

    am curious what *would* constitute proof for an atheist........?
    E.g. if 2 or more of you witnessed Him striding over the hills 1000ft high, that wouldn't be proof because the sanity clause would kick in. Could easily be dismissed as group hysteria by anyone not party to the event, or even indeed anyone at the event.
    Hmmmm. Seems we have to admit that anything anyone witnesses can't really be proved. Everything can be faked. All smoke and mirrors - anyone made a lear jet disappear recently? Or floated through the Wall of China?

    Back to ye olde subjectivity.

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    Re: Petition: Abolish faith schools (UK) |

    Quote Originally Posted by G4Z View Post
    Wondered when you would show your face.
    hey, where there's smoke............

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    Re: Petition: Abolish faith schools (UK) |

    ....theres a smoker
    Quote Originally Posted by Ephesians
    Do not be drunk with wine, which will ruin you, but be filled with the Spirit
    Vodka

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