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Thread: Do you believe Global Warming is just another stealth tax?

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    Re: Do you believe Global Warming is just another stealth tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosaline View Post
    Taxing fuel is a close approximate to an emissions tax, the way any such measure should be done. It encourages the purchase of more efficient cars, and discourages trivial uses for motor vehicles. And by such measures, industry is encouraged to change.
    The trouble is that it doesn't discourage use. It does make (some) people think about the efficiency of the cars they buy. I swapped a 3 liter estate car for a 1600cc MX5 which gives almost double the mileage because 20mpg was unacceptable to me but the sheer numbers of Range Rover Sport and other chelsea tractors you see on the road giving under 12mpg shows that people who can afford it won't care at all.

    The nature of society today is one of mobility. Our lives (and livelihoods) depend on being able to travel around. Yesterday my work took me all around Lincolnshire. I had to drive about 150 miles in all. The cost of fuel didn't make me say "Well I can't do that because fuel costs £1.04 per gallon". It just meant that it cost me more to do it. It therefore meant that I have to earn more to pay for it.
    That way leads to inflation which leads to higher interest rates wihich leads to higher wage demands and so on and so on.

    Everybody has to travel these days. I can't just go to the local shop to do my shopping these days because the local shop either doesn't exist or is so uncompetitively priced that it would cost me considerably more to get my shopping than it does to drive to Tescos 5 miles away on the outskirts of town.

    Unless the whole structure of society is changed, and let's face it it won't be, we can't reduce the number of miles travelled by any significant degree, especially by making it more expensive. All that will do is make mobility a prerogative of the rich and further widen the gap between the haves and the have nots.

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    Does he need a reason? Funkstar's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe Global Warming is just another stealth tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillikon View Post
    I'm curious about the Prius thing, this thread is as good as any to discuss all our dislikes of greenery cash ins.
    In it you have an engine, electric motors, fuel tank, batteries, heavy duty alternator and other gubbins to make it work as a hybrid.

    So you are lugging around all this extra weight and only getting a quoted 45mpg. Why no just get an efficient diesel that will give you a similar mpg?

    What is the energy/carbon footprint of the actual car being manufactured? considdering it has all this extra technology and engineering inside it, I wouldsuspect it is going to be a damn sight higher than an equivelant normal car. Are you going to drive it enough, assuming you are going to use less fuel every mile, to offset that increased energy/carbon footprint?

    Then there is the question of disposal. you have a crap load of heavy metals and other dangerous substances in the batteries and the additional electrics and electronics to dispose of when the car is finally junk. Sure Toyota might have a recycling program for them, but again this takes more engergy than a regular car. So again, have you driven it enough, assuming you are actually using less fuel, to offset this aditional energy/carbon footprint?

    I don't have the figures, but I have a hunch there is zero net benefit in using a prius over a reaonably efficient modern diesel.

    If you realy want to help the environment, reduce your bills and save fuel, get a little diesel city run about that can do 60mpg.

    Correction: Just had a look at the VW Polo. the 3rd 1.4TDI will do 72mpg on Extra Urban, the lowest they quote is 51mpg on urban, so even that beats the Prius. Sure it is a smaller car, but it illustrates my point. Im sure you can fine a car of similar size to the Prius with similar MPG (or even better) for less money, better build quality (the Prius is a rubbish car) and that costs the environment less to build and scrap.

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    Re: Do you believe Global Warming is just another stealth tax?

    How the hell is it a stealth tax ? Which part of it is stealthy ? It is an open and blatant money-snatching manoeuvre with the implication that it will be controlled if we pay the government a ridiculous amount of money.

    They certainly dont spend more than 1% of what they rake in to do anything about it.

    Absolute ****ing garbage.

    Global warming may or may not be happening. No one has conclusive proof either way - so even if we assume it is happening, there is nothing the goverment is doing that will reduce the "carbon footprint", just rake in more money for them.
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    Re: Do you believe Global Warming is just another stealth tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by [GSV]Trig View Post
    Nail, head, hammer
    what does that mean?
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    Herr Doktor Oetker, ja!!! pollaxe's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe Global Warming is just another stealth tax?

    Well, it seems to me that climate change is happening what is at issue is humanity's role in that process; is what's going on entirely natural or are we having an effect? Will the government use it as yet another excuse to wring money out of us - absolutely. Will it actually make a difference - as someone who thinks humanity is probably exacerbating the process - I hope so but I certainly wouldn't bet on it.

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    Re: Do you believe Global Warming is just another stealth tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by jay_oasis View Post
    what does that mean?
    "hit the nail on the head"
    (basically he is saying he agreed with you)

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    Re: Do you believe Global Warming is just another stealth tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by jay_oasis View Post
    what does that mean?
    how will my paying more tax stop this?
    How will us paying more tax help stop climate change.

    It wont, we could all pay 99.9% tax and climate change would still happen, climate change has always and will always for the life of this planet happen.

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    Re: Do you believe Global Warming is just another stealth tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by pollaxe View Post
    Well, it seems to me that climate change is happening what is at issue is humanity's role in that process; is what's going on entirely natural or are we having an effect? Will the government use it as yet another excuse to wring money out of us - absolutely. Will it actually make a difference - as someone who thinks humanity is probably exacerbating the process - I hope so but I certainly wouldn't bet on it.
    We are having an effect on a natural process, maybe were delaying it, maybe were speeding it up, I dont think that whatever effect we are having is going to totally stop or make something happen thats un-natural or out of place, tax or no tax..

    However, we should all recycle and be less wasteful, not because we want to stop climate change but just because we as a race are un-nesseserily wasteful, maybe a tax on rubbish isnt such a bad idea, not to give the government money but to make people be less wasteful, if it costs you to throw stuff away then in theory if you cut down on buying stuff you dont really need you'll save money which will offset whatever tax you would be getting charged. Plus if your not buying stuff theres no fuel costs going to the shops, no waste from packaging etc etc, its all interlinked...

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    Re: Do you believe Global Warming is just another stealth tax?

    One absolutely key reason that 'Green taxes' levied in the UK are fairly pointless is that we as a nation don't actually produce very much pollution. One has to look to China, India, Russia and the USA, who each contribute a vastly greater proportion of the world's pollution (however you wish to measure it), than the UK.

    However, the zeitgeist is that climate change is an emotive and political issue, so all political parties have been quick to jump on the bandwagon with highly inventive ways of combatting it through increased taxation...

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    Re: Do you believe Global Warming is just another stealth tax?

    1) Regardless of the cause, Global Warming is happening. Sea levels are going up about 1cm a year.
    2) Atmospheric science is an incredibly difficult discipline - even with the best supercomputers in the world, it's impossible to predict the weather more than a few days in advance - read up on Chaos theory for a more detailed explanation.
    3) Scientists first suggested that human activity may be at least partially responsible for climate change over 30 years ago; although proving the hypothesis 100% is virtually impossible, the consensus amoung the vast majority of scientists is that significant global warming is happening as a result of human activity.
    4) For those conspiracy theorists amouny you, please note that most of the 'evidence' against man-made global warming comes from studies funded by major oil companies, who have been running a concerted campaign to rubbish any science seen as a threat to their profits.
    5) We are all incredibly dependant on oil - not just for transport, but for fertiliser for our crops, raw material for plastics, etc. Although oil is not going to run out in our lifetimes, easily-extracted oil is already almost exhausted - oil is being used up as fast as it can be pumped out of the ground, and demand is rising, especially from India and China. The cost of extracting the remaining oil will go up significantly; the era of cheap oil is over.
    6) The major disaster that climate change may cause for Britain is that the melting of the Arctic, Siberian and Greenland ice sheets could dump enough cold, fresh water into the sea to turn off the Gulf Stream. If this happens, Britain's climate would become like that of Alaska for the next 100 000 years. At present, the last scientific estimate I saw suggested that there is a 50% chance that this will occur in the next 100 years, but it could happen much sooner.
    7) Latest scientific opinion is that we need at least an 80% cut in greenhouse gas emissions by 2050 to stave off disaster.
    8) There are other major risks that are just coming to light, such as the amount of methane trapped in frozen lakes that may be released as they thaw, accelerating the heating process.

    As Al Gore said, an inconvenient truth...

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    Re: Do you believe Global Warming is just another stealth tax?

    ... 1990 to 2100 rise would range from 280 to 340 mm, consistent with projections in the IPCC TAR.
    Link to above

    Where did you come up with the grossly exaggerated figure of 1cm per year from (3.4cm v 110cm) ? If you are going to correct me, do so with proper scientific references and not links to magazine extracts or newspaper clippings. I would definitely like to read more about the subject and open to discussion.

    Short for time right now, so Ill respond to the rest of the points later.
    Last edited by Sinizter; 30-01-2008 at 02:08 PM.
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    Re: Do you believe Global Warming is just another stealth tax?

    Where did you come up with the grossly exaggerated figure of 1cm per year from
    See the graph in this article :

    CRU Information Sheet no. 10: Sea level rise

    I am quoting the worst-case scenario but have seen similar figures quoted elsewhere.

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    Re: Do you believe Global Warming is just another stealth tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by greenalien View Post
    See the graph in this article :

    CRU Information Sheet no. 10: Sea level rise

    I am quoting the worst-case scenario but have seen similar figures quoted elsewhere.

    The trouble with Scenario's is they aren’t real, they are just some bodies made up projections and nothing more, how else do you get a "worst case" this comment is just covering all bases when they are not sure
    It is exactly this that troubles me; I am being taxed out of all reason on a few people’s stories.

    This is the same mentality that allowed a so called child specialist to get Parents incorrectly convicted by watching a TV programs, and found that when scrutinised many of his "stories" didn't hold water.

    It is in fact the worst type of populist, bandwagon jumping tripe.

    If it is so obvious that the climate is changing because of Mankind, why aren’t all Scientists in agreement?
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    Re: Do you believe Global Warming is just another stealth tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosaline View Post
    .....

    Taxing fuel is a close approximate to an emissions tax, the way any such measure should be done. It encourages the purchase of more efficient cars, and discourages trivial uses for motor vehicles. And by such measures, industry is encouraged to change.

    ....
    But it's also regressive. Fuel is relatively price-inelastic. That's why governments stick tax on it. They know that they can do so without significantly affecting demand. Oh sure, some people will cut down a bit, and demand will blip downwards, but after a period, it'll go right back where it was.

    You have to consider what the point of a tax is. If it's to raise revenue, you pick a price-inelastic product, because if you don't, a significant price hike (via tax) drops demand sufficiently that you end up with a higher tax rate on much lower sales and tax revenue actually falls. So if revenue was the objective, that would be a bit of an own goal.

    If, on the other hand, your objective is to change behaviour, then there's no point in taxing price-inelastic items because the very nature of them being price inelastic means behaviour won't change. That's close to the definition of price-inelasticity.

    So what does that tell you about fuel tax? It tells you that the objective isn't a change in behaviour or consumption, but to raise money.

    So given that it's inelastic (and it is, which is why successive governments have stuck so much tax on petrol) then if you want to change behaviour, you have to increase price a LOT. And given that most of us have lives where we can't simply or easily change consumption significantly, the result of a large increase in tax is going to be that the cost falls disproportionately on the poorest. And the very poorest may well be priced out of their cars altogether, whereas those driving gas-guzzling large Mercedes or BMWs, or 4x4s, can afford to pay the increase. They won't like it but they can afford it.

    So a fuel tax, ultimately, either has little effect on consumption because it's price inelastic, but is a great revenue-raising trick, or it prices the poor clear off the roads leaving them emptier for those with flash expensive gas-guzzlers to enjoy the open roads.

    And it was all supposed to be about climate change, wasn't it?

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    Re: Do you believe Global Warming is just another stealth tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by greenalien View Post
    See the graph in this article :

    CRU Information Sheet no. 10: Sea level rise

    I am quoting the worst-case scenario but have seen similar figures quoted elsewhere.
    Now you have a scientific source and I have one. Neither of us are qualified to comment on the quality of either. Also you are picking up on the worst case scenario.

    Evidently, neither are the scientists themselves, as they keep coming up with wildly different figures each time they do a study. I have a problem when they impose all sorts of measures on us based on some inexact phantom science when all they do at best are guessing.
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    Re: Do you believe Global Warming is just another stealth tax?

    The EU should ban the sale of cars that do under 35 miles to the gallon, the ex-chairman of oil giant Shell says.
    BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | EU 'should ban inefficient cars'

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