Video games teach just as many skills as books?

[Wyoming]

I'm trying to argue this [college debating society] and the debate is on monday. I just thought that Hexites are usually pretty good at arguing and I've more or less hit a dead end when brainstorming for arguments so it would be worth asking for help here.

So far I have the following:

• The US Army has used simulators for training since the early 90s starting with a specially modified version of Doom II and now use America's Army with 4 million registered players.

• Train drivers and pilots are taught using simulators.

• Gamers are more likely to pass their driving test on the first attempt, they have increased hand to eye co-ordination.

• Some children achieve a higher level of literacy through video games where they're forced to read to progress whereas a book might not grab their attention.

Is it fair to use simulators in this debate though? Some people I've spoken to have suggested that simulators don't fit in to the motion's title which states "Video Games."

Any ideas for arguments/critiscisms would be very much appreciated.

Thanks in advance ^^

[directhex]

do people buy and play titles like ms flight sim, gran turismo, etc, for fun?

then they're games

[HSK]

weird, but i was thinking bout something like this recently.

while watching my lil brother play FSX...I was thinking could they just plonk someone who was very good/competent at FSX in to a real/professional grade flight simulator or, lol, a real plane and see if they could fly it. (of course have someone there who could really fly to take over when it goes pear shaped).

lol dont ask.

[MadduckUK]

I'm trying to argue this [college debating society] and the debate is on monday. I just thought that Hexites are usually pretty good at arguing and I've more or less hit a dead end when brainstorming for arguments so it would be worth asking for help here.

So far I have the following:

• The US Army has used simulators for training since the early 90s starting with a specially modified version of Doom II and now use America's Army with 4 million registered players.

• Train drivers and pilots are taught using simulators.

• Gamers are more likely to pass their driving test on the first attempt, they have increased hand to eye co-ordination.

• Some children achieve a higher level of literacy through video games where they're forced to read to progress whereas a book might not grab their attention.

Is it fair to use simulators in this debate though? Some people I've spoken to have suggested that simulators don't fit in to the motion's title which states "Video Games."

Any ideas for arguments/critiscisms would be very much appreciated.

Thanks in advance ^^

this has stimulated a lot of thoughts, im going to try and answer it best i can, but i will probably end up missing a bunch of stuff out.

games and simulators should be regarded as two separate entities that can overlap, but dont need to. train drivers and pilots being taught via simulators i would certainly not class as video games. even if the simulator in question was a MS flight sim title (although it wont be). however if you had that simulator at home and messed around with it then that would be a game. its all about whether it is being used for educational purposes or for entertainment. so if the debate is about "video games" specifically then you will have to watch you dont stray into the educational side.

hand/eye co-ordination certainly yes. that will be more "tuned" for someone that has to use it more often. its a skill that, to a point can be improved with use.

Some children achieve a higher level of literacy through video games where they're forced to read to progress whereas a book might not grab their attention.

the fact you start with "some children" shows that this is quite a weak argument. and its more about comparing the quality of a game to the quality of a book than any inherent properties of said items. "some children" may find that a book that requires them to stimulate there imagination more engrossing than a game that does all the work for them.

the Americas army "game" (i would play it for fun... im not in the army and trying to learn) i see as more of a replacement for exercises, learning maneuvers and situational training.. the practical side of the driving test if you will. than the book, which would be the theory side. both are important and both are complimentary .

right iv been for a ciggy and my mind is blank now so ill leave it there till we get some other input

[shadowmaster]

Some medical surgeons use video games to improve their hand eye co-ordination.

Also the wii is now being used to help surgeons train.

BBC NEWS | Health | 'Wii warm-up' good for surgeons

[IBM]

I've always felt that if you took some very talented games designers and asked them to build a game around a series of proven educational activities - or even to compose educational activities around the central premise of the game - you would end up with an excellent teaching tool....perhaps the most effective way of teaching outside of pumping information directly into people's heads.

You could have elements within the game which encourage you to seek outside help, research topics, or work together in groups (obviously important for social development and negotiation). As long as the game is well designed it's bound to hold more appeal to kids that some git writing stuff down on the blackboard for an hour.

It could be online, a MMORPG with people all over the world, the language section could be having to travel to other parts of the world and speak in their language. You could have to start a business of some kind, allowing you to learn elements of business and economics, in addition to maths.

Seems a lot more appealing than traditional teaching if you ask me.

[Hunain]

Games CAN teach just as many skills as a book, but can teach them faster,more effectively..

[Lucio]

Virtually any experience can be "educational" and encourage positive traits in children. My other half's been watching a program where an experienced child development psychologist takes a child who has been struggling in school. She then teached them to perform some pretty advanced things via alternative methods.
One show I half watched showed a child who was taught, through things like dance, to remember some pretty complex stuff about a painter, and then produced her own version of the work and presented it to a group of art critics explaining what she had changed and why.

All in all, education for any child can consist of a myriad of things, the trick is finding what is right for that particular child.

[Andy3536]

It would also be worth noting that in military sims and sratergy games the people playing do learn a little about the events of the time.
I have also seen that these games encourage some people to learn the actuall events as the game gives them an interest in the subject.
Can't be bad, can it?

[Funkstar]

I think it all depends on the interpretation of the original argument.

Skills, yeah, I can see how in some situations games and simulators can be far better at teaching than plain reading.

Knowledge on the other hand is entirely different. As Andy said, games can inspire and encourage poeple to learn more about a subject, but they aren't going to get the knowledge from he game itself, just the motivation to seek out a book or other written resource on the subject.

[IBM]

Virtually any experience can be "educational" and encourage positive traits in children. My other half's been watching a program where an experienced child development psychologist takes a child who has been struggling in school. She then teached them to perform some pretty advanced things via alternative methods.
One show I half watched showed a child who was taught, through things like dance, to remember some pretty complex stuff about a painter, and then produced her own version of the work and presented it to a group of art critics explaining what she had changed and why.

All in all, education for any child can consist of a myriad of things, the trick is finding what is right for that particular child.

The two key things about that method are innovation and dedication. Innovation in that a teacher has taken alternative methods, and built a learning structure around them, and dedication in that it's one to one. As per my previous post, both of these can be addressed through computer based learning. It bugs me that there's so much potential for learning within computer environments, but so little done with it. I remember a maths game at school where you had to work out angles and trajectories in order to fire a catapult and knock down a castle. I learnt more in one 30 minute session on that game than I did in a months worth of maths lesson.

[SiM]

I don't think that games can teach me how to work with stochastic differential equation or solve combinatorial optimisation problems...
so it depends on what you need to learn its no substitute, but it can be mildly helpful in small doses... its a supplement for learning... although too much will probably make you worse as you get used to the game and lose track of how to do it properly in reality...

[IBM]

Once you get to a certain level you just have to give in to the fact that no amount of 'edutainment' is going to entice someone into learning something, they genuinely have to want to learn. But for the basics, even up to GCSE level in some cases, building a learning experience around a game makes a lot of sense.

[Lucio]

The two key things about that method are innovation and dedication. Innovation in that a teacher has taken alternative methods, and built a learning structure around them, and dedication in that it's one to one. As per my previous post, both of these can be addressed through computer based learning. It bugs me that there's so much potential for learning within computer environments, but so little done with it. I remember a maths game at school where you had to work out angles and trajectories in order to fire a catapult and knock down a castle. I learnt more in one 30 minute session on that game than I did in a months worth of maths lesson.

It's true that the game taught you a lot more about a particular aspect, however the knowledge that computer games tend to generate are pre-conscious skills. These can be important in the working world, because they can include things like typing, driving or performing virtually any task that requires rapid reactions within fixed perimeters.

What computer games don't teach however, tends towards conscious thought, skills and abilities that can include critical analysis (as opposed to instinctive analysis), problem solving and so forth.

It's arguable that in our society, we tend to have many more people who can master preconscious skills than conscious skills and thus there'd be little to gain from expanding teaching to include these methods given it's hard enough to find the ones that can excel at those particularly rare skills set. Let's not forget that the primary purpose of the education system is to find those that can succeed at complex tasks and prepare them for further education and in addition bring the general population up to a basic level of skills (Reading, Writing, Maths) to cope in the real world.

[finlay666]

I (as student game programmer) don't think games can teach.

I DO however think they can be excellent practice tools for these skills, e.g. language skills for an RPG or maths skills for a strategy game (resource management)

[Wyoming]

Thanks for all the responses so far guys, very useful. Anyone got a comment to make on the importance of the skills taught by video games versus those taught by books?