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Thread: 10% tax band petition

  1. #65
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    Re: 10% tax band petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitzen View Post
    The standard of care isnt better privately. The waiting time is the key for me. If i can afford it then im happy to do it.
    I've a nasty scar that begs to differ.

    Even something cheap and simple like a topical steroid was neglected by the NHS in cornwall. The service i've had on private health has not only been convient, considerate, but also of the highest standard, if not a bit rude about the consulants i saw on the NHS who kinda screwed things up a bit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blitzen View Post
    I cant be held accountable for people that are on a lower wage. Thats not my doing.
    Welcome to the dark side, you've accepted that someone on your wage, will get a better treatment than those on 3k a year. (i never said i liked that conclusion of mine, but its inevitable)
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    Re: 10% tax band petition

    Quote Originally Posted by pauldarkside View Post
    Some of the opinions on here are very worrying and come across as "well I'm alright Jack so sod everyone else".
    It works both ways. For years those on the lower tax band have "been alright Jack" under Labour at the expense of the higher tax band payer - allot of which are not exactly "Rich!" relative to where they live and their income after tax.

    Rich is rather subjective. Sure someone raking in the 100s of k's could be perceived as "rich" to many where as someone earning around 40-60k living and working in one of the worlds most expensive city's is no where near the status of "rich" imo.

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    Re: 10% tax band petition

    I've just signed.

    I'm in the position where i don't want to live at home, but can't afford to buy or afford to rent. (Anything other than a room in a smelly flat anyway)

    I got a £750 pay rise 2 months ago and i'll now be in the position where i'll be worse off than the same time last year.

    They simply cannot keep trying to make up for thier shortfall by continuing to take from those already struggling to get by.
    The sooner these out of touch idiots get out of power the better

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    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Re: 10% tax band petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitzen View Post
    I agree with the private healthcare.
    BUPA may have low waiting times, but the skill level is lower than what you would receive on the NHS in most fields of medicine , thats why some of the royals still use the NHS.

    (although many work for both NHS and private)

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    Re: 10% tax band petition

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    BUPA may have low waiting times, but the skill level is lower than what you would receive on the NHS in most fields of medicine , thats why some of the royals still use the NHS.

    (although many work for both NHS and private)
    I have a family member who works for a rather large health care company that may or may not be listed in this quote.

    The word 'shocking' is the only one that comes to mind. I have stories people here wouldn't believe.

    Oh, and they make most of their money by employing minimum wage staff where-ever they can. What do you think happens when you have minimum wage chav's looking after ex-war vets?
    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    And by trying to force me to like small pants, they've alienated me.

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    Lover & Fighter Blitzen's Avatar
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    Re: 10% tax band petition

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    BUPA may have low waiting times, but the skill level is lower than what you would receive on the NHS in most fields of medicine , thats why some of the royals still use the NHS.

    (although many work for both NHS and private)

    I did say that few posts ago.
    Just because you pay rather than go NHS, it doesnt mean the care is better.....just quicker and you get a nice room.

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    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
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    Re: 10% tax band petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitzen View Post
    I did say that few posts ago.
    Just because you pay rather than go NHS, it doesnt mean the care is better.....just quicker and you get a nice room.
    Indeed, its what economists call a Lemon Market.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    Welcome to the dark side, you've accepted that someone on your wage, will get a better treatment than those on 3k a year. (i never said i liked that conclusion of mine, but its inevitable)
    Lets define better, as quicker.

    The thing is all the comments i made about better health care for the rich, you've addmitted to been a part of (not that i of course would blame you, who wouldn't want the best for their family, and themselfs).

    Admit it, i'm not *such* a monster after all.
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    Re: 10% tax band petition

    The thing is all the comments i made about better health care for the rich, you've addmitted to been a part of (not that i of course would blame you, who wouldn't want the best for their family, and themselfs).
    I didnt say better healthcare for the rich.
    The way you were speaking about it earlier in the thread was as if to say if you earn more then you should go to the front of the queue. You were talking about the NHS queue and that is just wrong.

    I was expressing as paying for it myself privately (well...my company).
    If i am paying for it myself, which no-one forces me to do, then why not? I am not jumping any queues doing that just because i pay alot of taxes. No-one with no money is suffering because i am paying out of my own pocket are they?

    Admit it, i'm not *such* a monster after all
    Never........muhahahaha!!!

  10. #73
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    Re: 10% tax band petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitzen View Post
    I didnt say better healthcare for the rich.
    The way you were speaking about it earlier in the thread was as if to say if you earn more then you should go to the front of the queue. You were talking about the NHS queue and that is just wrong.
    But if your a remotely hard to replace worker, you will have health benefits?

    Why? Because new labour arse kissing manipulated statistics asside, it takes months to get treatment on the NHS. Often you will have to wait a year just to see the consultant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitzen View Post
    I was expressing as paying for it myself privately (well...my company).
    If i am paying for it myself, which no-one forces me to do, then why not? I am not jumping any queues doing that just because i pay alot of taxes. No-one with no money is suffering because i am paying out of my own pocket are they?
    Not really, you see the company is forced to pay for it for you, not out of the goodness of their hearts (After all, whats the point in that, its a taxable benefit, they might as well just let you choose your own) but because the NHS is so poor, they couldn't afford to have you out of action.

    Don't you see that is a VERY clear message on non ermergancy treatment to the government? It is saying its ok to have a low level of service, well just go private.

    Why is it worse to have that injustice inside the NHS? That would be more efficent (and even help the poor people more too, if as i mentioned above the queue placement function whilst weighted by contribution, was not souly determined by it).
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    Re: 10% tax band petition

    So what does everybody think about today's 'U turn' from the PM?

    A promise to look at maybe in the future at some point and maybe possibly look at some form of compensation.

    I never understood this rebate based tax credits fiasco to begin with and this makes even less sense.

    Why can't we simply have a variety of tax codes that cover certain circumstances and do this all in one go instead of employing people to tax people and then employing more people to give it back (multiplied 6 times over at least, considering the number of different tax's and rebates/benefits). Its just inefficient, if I delivered a project that convoluted at my job in the private sector I think I would be quite concerned for the future security of my job!
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    Re: 10% tax band petition

    Quote Originally Posted by G4Z View Post
    So what does everybody think about today's 'U turn' from the PM?

    A promise to look at maybe in the future at some point and maybe possibly look at some form of compensation.

    I never understood this rebate based tax credits fiasco to begin with and this makes even less sense.

    Why can't we simply have a variety of tax codes that cover certain circumstances and do this all in one go instead of employing people to tax people and then employing more people to give it back (multiplied 6 times over at least, considering the number of different tax's and rebates/benefits). Its just inefficient, if I delivered a project that convoluted at my job in the private sector I think I would be quite concerned for the future security of my job!
    I'm a self-confessed cynic, but to me it looks like a politically-motivated fudge.

    It's like this. Brown screwed up royally with the 10% band's abolition. Let me be clear - in itself, getting rid of the 10% bracket is no bad thing, because simplifying the tax system is no bad thing. But he screwed up on a couple of fronts.

    Front 1). If you increase taxes for many of the lowest incomes in the country, in order to pay for tax cuts for high earners, you are going to face a lot of flak. So did he not work out that that was the implication? Is he really such an enormous numpty that he didn't see that?

    Or is he so politically naive that he didn't anticipate the reaction? The political implications?

    For all my distaste for Brown, I find it hard to believe that he's so stupid that he didn't realise how the numbers work out, and it's even less credible that he couldn't see how that would play politically, not just with the country but for him, more importantly, his own back-benchers.


    Front 2). It is a piece of monumental political stupidity that, in abolishing the 10% band, he didn't protect those that he's now having to at least appear to be going to protect. It is perfectly possible to have built a series of measures into this budget that would have allowed the 22% rate to be cut to 20%, and abolish the 10% band, while still protecting the low earners. And if he had, he wouldn't have had to climb down today, wouldn't have faced weeks of repeated calls from the public, from just about every form of news media, from his own back benchers and even from some members of his own government. It could have been structured as a masterpiece of policy entirely in accordance with Labour's supposed principles. But he screwed the pooch.

    Why did he, though? He was, at that time, Chancellor. So he sure as hell had the support services in place to analyse the effects. And of course, he couldn't have foreseen the effects of the Election that never was, or the repeated data loss fiasco, or the revelations about Labour party funding, and so on. So he made a spur-of-the-moment publicity-seeking headline-grabbing announcement. His centrepiece for that budget was the 22p to 20p cut in basic rate. Oh, with a few other tweaks slung in. It was a populist sound-bite-seeking stunt. It wasn't, from what I can gather, in any way consulted-upon. None of the usual bodies were sounded out. If they had been, perhaps the sting in the tail would have been noticed.


    So instead, what we have is an ambitious and frustrated Chancellor who's had his eye in the top job for years, green with envy that Blair had been in the spotlight, grabbing headlines and making an "entrance" by this "unprecedented" tax cut .... that screwed it up monumentally. Then, he's such an arrogant plonker that he doesn't even have the balls to come out an admit he screwed up. So for months he denies anyone is losing out, and then (still without admitting that) comes up with a series of fudges designed to defuse the backbench rebellion.

    And that's what today is about - defusing what he feared might be a defeat on Frank Field's amendment. Because if he'd lost that, it effectively canned a major part of the budget, because a fair bit of the other stuff was being paid for by that 10% band going, and if that fell, he HAD to redo quite a lot more or it was unfunded. And if a PM has a budget fall apart on him so fully and so publicly, and at the hands of his own party, it could very well be an issue of no confidence in the Government, which at the very least, would hand the Tories an incredible PR victory, and at the worst (for him) lead to his replacement. He is, after all, not exactly inspiring confidence even among his own MPs. And there are a lot of Labour MPs in marginals keeping one eye on his string of faux pas and the other on direct polling results. And their third eye is on their own political demise, the way things are going. Nothing motivates a politician quite like the looming threat on seat-loss and unemployment. Which, of course, is why so many were prepare to stand on their Labour principles and go up against Brown.

    Which brings me to the original question - about whether this makes sense. G4Z, it isn't about whether the measures make sense or not. It's about kicking the issue into the long grass in a way that allows Labour MPs to maintain the position that they fought for Labour principles. Those rebelling MPs can preen in front of their constituents and say that they stood up for Labour principles, even when it meant going up against the PM. It's a face-saving stunt .... for both sides. It gives Labour MPs a credible way to make off of a confrontation .... right in front of major local elections.

    And, of course, all the Chancellor has said is, effectively, we'll look at it, and these are some of the measures we'll look at to address the issues. He hasn't said exactly what he'll do, or that those currently worse off won't stay worse off.

    As for whether the original scheme makes sense or not, it depends on your agenda. If the objective is to simplify the tax system and reduce bureaucracy, then abolishing the 10% band makes a minor reduction in complexity, but does NOTHING to reduce bureaucracy.

    If, on the other hand, your objective is to rake in the maximum possible from the taxpayer with one hand, then magnanimously give some of it back with the other hand, then Brown's nightmare-ish system of tax credits works wonderfully. It puts a vast bureaucracy in place, and it places ever-increasing control over your money in the hands of the state. Oh, and by the way, it creates an additional group of state employees that owe their jobs to the state, and that will end up unemployed if proposals are made to scrap the tax credit system. In other words, it is a typical old-Labour centralising tactic. Grab what money you can from the population, then employ a shed load of bureaucrats to hand some of it back again. And if that system, Brown's legacy as Chancellor, is his idea of "simplifying" the tax system, then he's in the wrong job either as PM or Chancellor - he ought to be on stage .... as a stand-up comic .... or maybe circus clown.


    By the way, anyone think I'm still on Brown's Christmas card list?

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    Re: 10% tax band petition

    It's highly likely a waste of time, as previous petitions have proved.
    but ive signed it anyway.

    all we seem to get from the lousy .gov is no we cant, no we wont, or no but here's another dept/organisation that will ignore you.

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    Re: 10% tax band petition

    Oh, and in my rant above about Brown and his ways of dealing with "helping" people by taxing them more and then handing some of it back through the tax credit system, there's one more point ...

    When tax is deducted at source via income tax, it goes to the government automatically via PAYE. But for most of the tax credit schemes, it only goes back if you fill in a (complex) form, make the application and are prepared to be subject the vagaries of the implementation of the credits, complete with the colossal cockups, overpayments are return demands there have been.

    So ...... you organise a "tax neutral" budget like the last one was supposed to be. You take automatically using PAYE. You then give back some of it, because the take-up on tax credits is far from 100%. You can still call it tax neutral, which it would be if everyone claimed everything they're allowed to, but in actual fact, it's tax-raising, not neutral, because not everyone either knows they're entitled to credits, or is prepared to jump through bureaucratic hoops to get them.

    In other words, it's another cynical political manipulation from one of the masters of the political and economic con-jobs. Only it came unstuck this time.

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    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Re: 10% tax band petition

    is bown a complete idiot?

    hes given back only what he took from the low paid 10p tax losers and now gifted the winners a further £120. What a wnaker

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