Fuddam, A Few Moments Of Your Time Please.

[Brucelles]

I do like the concept of the later parts of the Bible overriding the earlier parts where they contradict. "Thou shall kill an homosexual, for it is an icky thing" gets overridden by "Thou shalt not kill" and "Love thy neighbour as thyself". So my colleague with the lisp gets to live.

I suppose it fits with the RC doctrine of saying "sorry" just before you die and being forgiven, though.

I also am with the Christians on the fact that it is kind of pointless to pick up on figures of speech and claim that they render the whole book meaningless. When Jesus said "I will make you fishers of men" I don't pretend that he was going to give them nets and rods and make them convince people to eat worms with hooks in them.

It is similarly pointless to pick on details like Jesus saying that a mustard seed was the smallest seed in the world, when we know it's not. That's how you had to talk to people 2,000 years ago.

Having said that, there is an awful lot of bollocks in the Old Testament. It would probably be better for any Christian church to just quietly drop that one.

[Zak33]

I think this thread is ace.

I simply wish I wasn't so much older having read it all

[Whiternoise]

I think this thread is ace.

I simply wish I wasn't so much older having read it all

Not too late to join in, dear chap!

What's your take on it all?

[fuddam]

I wrote a long reply to this post, but typically nudged the reset button on my PC. very clever. So, will try (24hrs later) to recompile it intelligently. Try.

So just to clarify, all Christians should subscribe to a series of "base" beliefs, but you're free to interpret the rest - provided your goal in life is basically the same thing?

nope, otherwise that sounds like a recipe for a dangerous subjectivism
e.g. whatever you believe it to mean is up to you.
There *has* to be some degree of objectivity throughout. That's where things like Bible *study* (as opposed to just reading it), discussion & debate, hermeneutics play a big part.

Certainly there are many good theories for the various "miracles" in the Bible, most of which would have seemed like miracles to the people witnessing them - i believe the flood is suspected to be a valley flooding in the Mediterranean or something along those lines?

understood. heard some of those too, eg that the Red Sea is prone to periods of extreme shallowness under extraordinary conditions, so Moses & co could easily have walked through the shallows. Well, that sounds nice, until one considers how an entire army of Egyptians then died in that same shallow water. Mebbe a *sudden* excessively high tide?

Primarily no, but would you disagree that many Christians use it as one? Certainly i know people who own Bible companions which has an index of "things that might be problems" and a correseponding Bible verse to show an analogy.

Oh, absolutely, and I do it myself. As before, the Bible is *full* of wisdom & guidance, but having said that, it only works when coupled with a living relationship to Christ.
Eg, "if depressed, read verses X, Y & Z" - that only works in reminding one of the truth of the Bible, jogging the memory / understanding about who we are in relation to Him, etc.

The DMCA was the Digital Millenium Copyright Act, legislation brought into power in the US a few years back to try and cope with the effects that the internet and computing had had on piracy. A more native example would be Data Protection, a law brought in to cope with new technological developments. I gave it as an example as how scripture changes to reflect the times.

Thanks. On that point, though, I can't see where any parts of the Bible have been suddenly rejected / dismissed in the light of recent theological understandings / scientific revelations / legal positions.

But by that, then surely you are using it as a philosophical "self help" (obviously it's deeper and more complicated than that) book? I don't want to brandish the "What would JC do?" wristbands, but it sounds a little like what you're describing - not that it's necessarily a bad thing!

Well, let me put it this way: the Bible claims to the word of God. It gives us guidance, history, prophecy, revelation, and does so divinely. Without it, a Christian would be lost. The more a Christian spends time studying and meditating on it, the greater the relationship one develops with Christ Himself. THAT is the crux. So the idea of "self-help" is a inappropriate, since it's not about navel-gazing but about Him.

I guess my point is.. it may all be down to interpretation, but is it possible to have a coherent, stable religion if even some of the highest members of the religion disagree with each other in such a way? Indeed how can you have a coherent religion if the entire flock interprets the Bible differently?

Let me put it to you this way: Christianity is not about religion. It is about truth. And there will always be debate about what is the Truth.
Can I have a relationship to Christ even if other people argue about details concerning an issue in the Bible? Of course.
Can I have a positive relationship with people with whom I disagree on some issues? Of course.

[Brucelles]

Thanks. On that point, though, I can't see where any parts of the Bible have been suddenly rejected / dismissed in the light of recent theological understandings / scientific revelations / legal positions.

There are a number of parts of the Old Testament that do not stand up to the test of logic. I guess the best example that occurs to me is the flood and the ark. There is no evidence whatsoever that any such flood has occurred while humanity has been extant. Similarly the ark as described is far too small to carry two of each species and subspecies. Even if it were bigger, the materials available at the time would not have included steel, and therefore it's construction would have been impossible. Consider the sheer numbers of species; there are currently around 1.8 milion named species but estimates vary between 2 and 100 million in total. To fit all of the mammals and their food for 40 days a boat would have to be kilometers long and if made of wood it would fall apart. How long would it take Shem, Ham and Japhet to collect even the estimated one million pairs of insects?

I take this example as evidence that the Old Testament in particular is a collection of Jewish stories and myths. The fact that this story is obviously false throws doubt on all of the OT, without having to start to analyse the stories of Jonah and Samson or the men who lived to be 900. With so much of it patently rubbish, it is really not of much use except in giving Christians rules to live by. Provided they don't take it too far and start killing people for sodomy.

[Whiternoise]

@ Brucelles

Whilst i'm not really into believing much of the Bible, the flood is one i mentioned in my last post.

The story goes that it was an area somewhere in Europe, a valley or somesuch, which flooded almost completely. The corresponding waters killed off basically everything that couldn't get out in time, and it's possible that "Noah" made a boat and put his livestock onto it (ie the only animals they knew of) along with his family and they were saved.

Soddom And Gommorah might well have been an earthquake for another one.

But i take your point. There are a few that defy belief, the ones that i can't really believe are the faith healing bits. A lot of the rest is unbelievable in it's own right, but you can see where an ancient scribe might have got the inspiration from.

Ah yes and the age problem.. 900 years + for many denizens of Earth is a very long time Unless years were suddenly a lot shorter back then?

[fuddam]

But i take your point. There are a few that defy belief, the ones that i can't really believe are the faith healing bits. A lot of the rest is unbelievable in it's own right, but you can see where an ancient scribe might have got the inspiration from.

Ah yes and the age problem.. 900 years + for many denizens of Earth is a very long time Unless years were suddenly a lot shorter back then?

well, none of the 'miraculous' events are going to be the least bit plausible, as I said earlier, unless one factors in the supernatural. You're both trying to understand these events within a normal, 'scientific' perspective. Of course it would be impossible for (eg) someone to live to be 900, or water to be turned into wine, or to feed 5000 men with 2 fish & 5 loaves (aside the women and children, to make a potential grand total of 30,000). All sounds like garbage.

HOWEVER, take things outside the realm of the 'possible', bring in a God who is able to accomplish the humanly impossible, and is not quite the same situation.

Ok, I appreciate that it might sound like a licence to print any old rubbish. Understood. But Whiternoise raised a very useful example: faith healing.

Without having to resort to history books, scholarship and archeology for 'proof' of those events, we have people claiming faith healing here and now. Raising people from the dead? Happens all the time. So, one can go looking for evidence *oneself*. No need to resort to other people's reports.

eg: at a powerful church meeting in Reading, a while ago, a FOAF came outside afterwards, drenched in the Spirit, and sat down to take a breather. He noticed a beggar with twisted, deformed feet, unable to walk, asking for food. He asked if he could pray for this beggar, and then did so. The feet uncurled themselves, became normal. Instead of buying the beggar food from the shop across the road, he gave him money to walk across and buy it himself, then took him down the road to buy him some shoes.

So, the skeptic might ask, did this really happen? Were the feet really deformed, or just the beggar pretending to be crippled? Isn't the story complete fabrication, designed to make Christians feel good?

My point is that one can find out for oneself. If not finding the original beggar, exploring the thousands of other stories of a similar nature that are related daily.

Like I said, a pursuit of Truth.

[fuddam]

For any Christians / curious-types on this thread, visit www.e-sword.net for an amazing free app. Excellent for study, it enables one to install multiple Bibles that can be read alone or in parallel, with the original Hebrew & Greek, with historical context etc, in one interface. Has a graphics reader for studying maps, charts, images, plus Strongs reference. Completely searchable of course.

www.e-sword.net/features.html



there are multiple packs one can install, most are free, including the CIA world fact book. grooooooovy!

[Brucelles]

TBH Fuddam, I couldn't care less how literally you or anyone else takes the Bible. If the story of Noah is an exaggeration of an actual event, cool. If God did it and cleaned up the evidence, cool too. I am just pointing out that one has to either be a believer and believe that God did a lot of wacky stuff and then hid the evidence or that you can be a believer without losing track of the fact that 2,000 years is a long time and clarity may have been lost in that time.

Personally I am atheist on the basis that I described. I read the Bible and found it unlikely, so I discarded any of it that didn't make much sense and was left with no God and some dubious history. However I recognise that a lot of people find a lot of use for the Bible, particularly the less silly New Testament, so I can also see why some of them dismiss the OT as mainly allegory, exaggeration, mis-speaking (to use a Hillary Clintonism) and other confusions. I don't think it makes people bad Christians as such, just more realistic ones.

I don't know how much of a literalist you are, but I guess that you will probably see the Adam & Eve story as a myth, as most intelligent Christians do, allowing you to reconcile the Bible to observed reality, however if you don't that's your choice, just don't become a geologist. If those Christians who do see Adam & Eve as an allegory choose to believe that way, do you think it makes them bad Christians? Deluded fools? or is that sort of reading acceptable to you?

I am reminded of the Catholic Church and the transsubstantiation ruling. Many people saw a disembowelled felon with the wafer still in his stomach, but still chose to believe that the pope's word on this was final. Their choice. I personally sympathise with those who thought "What bollocks" and carried on believing that Jesus was speaking metaphorically, but I don't think that choosing either side made anyone a worse Christian.

[TeePee]

Throw out all logic an reason and god makes perfect sense. Well done fo putting it in context fuddam!

[mediaboy]

TeePee - Was that a more subtle insult than the ones you were throwing around earlier?

[schmunk]

eg: at a powerful church meeting in Reading, a while ago, a FOAF came outside afterwards, drenched in the Spirit, and sat down to take a breather. He noticed a beggar with twisted, deformed feet, unable to walk, asking for food. He asked if he could pray for this beggar, and then did so. The feet uncurled themselves, became normal. Instead of buying the beggar food from the shop across the road, he gave him money to walk across and buy it himself, then took him down the road to buy him some shoes.

So, the skeptic might ask, did this really happen? Were the feet really deformed, or just the beggar pretending to be crippled? Isn't the story complete fabrication, designed to make Christians feel good?

My point is that one can find out for oneself. If not finding the original beggar, exploring the thousands of other stories of a similar nature that are related daily.

How can you write such bollocks with a straight face?

[Betty_Swallocks]

The trouble I have with this kind of story is this. It's always "a church", "a while ago", "a person". It's all too anonymous.
The people involved are never named and the time and place is never specified so there is no way of showing that it is anything more than just a nice heartwarming story.
Without details it is meaningless and diminishes my faith rather than strengthens it.

[schmunk]

Fuddam,

How come the press have never reported on such miracles? They'd sell hundreds of thousands of magazines with a confirmed report of such an event.

How come such events aren't world famous? David Blaine is known worldwide, but not the man who miraculously cured a disfigured lame man?

How come when the word 'Allah' in Arabic appears in a piece of meat this is widely reported, even on BBC News, yet the many thousands of stories of truly miraculous feats attained by dizzy Christians go untold?

Seriously, provide something approaching proof or take it back.

[mediaboy]

If you want proof of people seeing Jesus wander into a nearby Church.


The reason it doesn't get put in the news is because... well.. it's not news really.
How many fanatics of Christianity claim to be inspired by God or have seen God or whatever?

[Whiternoise]

Actually the water in to wine one is very plausible..

Wine into water on the other hand..!

And i've had many debates about faith healing with a good friend of mine, a solid Christian like yourself. Personally i still think it's bunk no matter how many examples and miracles people throw at me - no disrespect to yourself, i just think it's impossible

Bringing people back from the dead is a reality. But.. since when did the ancients have AEDs? Let alone a knowledge of proper CPR?